Farflung 0
Recommended Posts
georger 197
QuoteThe only thing that's really important regarding that SkyChef matchbook is the fact that Mucklow bothered to ID them to the FBI.
This means the FBI probably checked out the SkyChef restaurant employees and questioned them. I did my best presenting a few other possibilities, but let's face it...without more information it's all conjecture.
Too bad the matches didn't have the name of a bar on them instead...
As far as the so-called put on by a left-handed person *tie clasp,* the only REAL picture is the FBI picture. And no one can say that before Tom Kaye and his team were allowed to examine it that some agent in the years previously had not taken it off and put it back on the tie - facing the other direction. If they never moved it, then it's possible the wearer was left handed, otherwise, who knows?
Himmelsbach did say (in the early hours) that
Cooper might be a "food service worker". That is
documented. Himmelsbach mentioned Cooper's
dress, not Sky Chef matches.
smokin99 0
But if you can come up with a genuine "left-hand" tie clasp, then you need to continue and look for a shirt that can be buttoned with the left hand. Is there a place on the planet where such shirts are customary?
Sorry but you got me wondering.....
http://www.etsy.com/listing/93692865/left-handed-tie-clasp-with-small-hanging
but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill
lodestar 0
Channel 276, direct tv, docu on Cooper....airing now....no doubt there will be more showings...
Farflung 0
BINGO smokin99. You actually found a left handed, tie clasp.
Now you just need to find a left handed, men’s shirt. Airtwardo thinks there are some European men’s shirts which button on the left. I think that’s just a euphemism though. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
Now would this left handed tie clasp be put on upside down by a right handed person even if they were wearing a right handed, men’s shirt or would a spouse (husband here) be able to dress his wife by putting on her tie clasp for her like was previously suggested?
My goodness, sakes alive but getting dressed has so many facets and complexities on this thread that it’s any wonder anyone is clothed at all.
Now you just need to find a left handed, men’s shirt. Airtwardo thinks there are some European men’s shirts which button on the left. I think that’s just a euphemism though. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
Now would this left handed tie clasp be put on upside down by a right handed person even if they were wearing a right handed, men’s shirt or would a spouse (husband here) be able to dress his wife by putting on her tie clasp for her like was previously suggested?
My goodness, sakes alive but getting dressed has so many facets and complexities on this thread that it’s any wonder anyone is clothed at all.
Farflung 0
RobertMBlevins opines about the position of the tie clasp as:
“As far as the so-called put on by a left-handed person *tie clasp,* the only REAL picture is the FBI picture.”
Did you mean this FBI picture (0:37 – 0:54)?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLOgfkv4alk&feature=related
Gee it sure looks like that theory on the only REAL picture has just been destroyed by a LIVING FBI agent in a moving picture video which clearly has the clasp on the other side of the tie. I know how very important the truth is and know you will find this information comforting. You’re welcome.
“As far as the so-called put on by a left-handed person *tie clasp,* the only REAL picture is the FBI picture.”
Did you mean this FBI picture (0:37 – 0:54)?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLOgfkv4alk&feature=related
Gee it sure looks like that theory on the only REAL picture has just been destroyed by a LIVING FBI agent in a moving picture video which clearly has the clasp on the other side of the tie. I know how very important the truth is and know you will find this information comforting. You’re welcome.
smokin99 0
QuoteThe only thing that's really important regarding that SkyChef matchbook is the fact that Mucklow bothered to ID them to the FBI.
This means the FBI probably checked out the SkyChef restaurant employees and questioned them. I did my best presenting a few other possibilities, but let's face it...without more information it's all conjecture.
Too bad the matches didn't have the name of a bar on them instead...
As far as the so-called put on by a left-handed person *tie clasp,* the only REAL picture is the FBI picture. And no one can say that before Tom Kaye and his team were allowed to examine it that some agent in the years previously had not taken it off and put it back on the tie - facing the other direction. If they never moved it, then it's possible the wearer was left handed, otherwise, who knows?
You're right...who knows?
To beat a dead horse again.....If the tie clip was merely a decoration or to hold the two flaps of the tie together - I could see a left-handed person putting it on from the left. However, if it was worn in a functional manner to hold the tie in place by attaching the tie to the shirt, seems most likely that it would have been put on from the right regardless of whether he was left or right-handed.
What seems probable to me...is that the tie clip was taken off the tie at some point and replaced by a right-handed FBI agent facing the tie. Just saying.....
A question for the sky divers....CAUTION...WHUFFO ALERT.....Are parachutes designed for right / left hand? The ones I've seen in pictures look like it would be difficult to grasp and pull with the left hand.
Not DB specific question - Just curious.
but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill
smokin99 0
QuoteRobertMBlevins opines about the position of the tie clasp as:
“As far as the so-called put on by a left-handed person *tie clasp,* the only REAL picture is the FBI picture.”
Did you mean this FBI picture (0:37 – 0:54)?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLOgfkv4alk&feature=related
Gee it sure looks like that theory on the only REAL picture has just been destroyed by a LIVING FBI agent in a moving picture video which clearly has the clasp on the other side of the tie. I know how very important the truth is and know you will find this information comforting. You’re welcome.
Guess you just upped that probability quotient. Unless there's documentation from the time of how the tie was found seems like this one is a non-starter...... again.
but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill
The ones I've seen in pictures look like it would be difficult to grasp and pull with the left hand.
Not DB specific question - Just curious.
Not DB specific question - Just curious.
Quote
Sport chutes can be custom made with the handles 'reversed' for lefties but it's very rare.
That being said...there isn't really a problem pulling with your non dominant hand, Systems today all have the reserve handle on the left side. It can be pulled by hooking the left thumb and punching out, crossing over with the right hand or using both hands.
Ripcord placement isn't a critical issue.
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
georger 197
What seems probable to me...is that the tie clip was taken off the tie at some point and replaced by a right-handed FBI agent facing the tie. Just saying.....
.
.
Tom has clearly taken the clip off for his sampling -
Farflung 0
RobertMBlevins reflects on the importance of the tie artifact with:
“Dawn J's ID on the clasp, IMHO, means much more.”
I think it is obvious to everyone that the tie clasp was mass produced by the tens of thousands and Dawn J was one of hundreds of thousands to have seen one. Some people claim to vaguely recall Raleigh cigarettes because of the coupon on the back. These people must not be aware of the fact that many cigarettes had coupons on the back, Camel and Chesterfields for example.
That tie clasp must be so common that some enterprising person has apparently acquired a case of the things along with a lot of Skychef matches. Now anyone can purchase a genuine, replica DB Cooper artifact for their very own. What price you ask? You’ll never guess.
I agree, the clasp, tie and Skychef matches were all available in the tens of thousands across the country thus proving nothing again.
Now add a personalized autographed picture of Tina, half a pack of smokes, sunglasses and a bottle of Wild Turkey and I would throw down some righteous bucks for that package.
“Dawn J's ID on the clasp, IMHO, means much more.”
I think it is obvious to everyone that the tie clasp was mass produced by the tens of thousands and Dawn J was one of hundreds of thousands to have seen one. Some people claim to vaguely recall Raleigh cigarettes because of the coupon on the back. These people must not be aware of the fact that many cigarettes had coupons on the back, Camel and Chesterfields for example.
That tie clasp must be so common that some enterprising person has apparently acquired a case of the things along with a lot of Skychef matches. Now anyone can purchase a genuine, replica DB Cooper artifact for their very own. What price you ask? You’ll never guess.
I agree, the clasp, tie and Skychef matches were all available in the tens of thousands across the country thus proving nothing again.
Now add a personalized autographed picture of Tina, half a pack of smokes, sunglasses and a bottle of Wild Turkey and I would throw down some righteous bucks for that package.
BobKnoss 0
QuoteQuote
Dawn J's ID on the clasp, IMHO, means much more.
Original written word is gospel. Gold BYU lapel pin with the initials RFMjr on the back. See attached. Now in the repossession of RFMjr. Look it up.
Better yet, give me your free lie detector test, questions approved by 377.
georger 197
I agree, the clasp, tie and Skychef matches were all available in the tens of thousands across the country thus proving nothing again.
.
.
You mean this JC Penny tie clasp & set ?
18K gold plate Mother of pearl accessory set.
Lot No. redacted.
1960-68 production.
Available in 'REDACTED"
I will add another for comparison.
And another ...
Farflung 0
That’s the closest example I’ve ever seen of the elusive tie clasp georger. Yes, I’ve spent time scanning and searching tie clasps with zero luck. Nice find.
So what’s the provenance/pedigree? Mother of pearl and gold plate sure compliments the JC Penny tie, Raleigh cigarettes and Sky Chef matches for price point, taste and quality.
I went so far as to craft a DB Cooper orbital chart (because I’m awesome) of how far I presently sit from all the rare and uncommon artifacts associated with the hijacking.
Pack of Raleigh’s, assuming they are still made is 300 yards from me. A JC Penny store is a whopping 3.4 miles, which supplied the tie and apparently the clasp (even though the Penny manager in Las Vegas denied having such items to the FBI). Leaving the Sky Chefs matchbook at the greatest distance of 21 miles, which is sort of moot since one typically hijacks airplanes at airports.
Even in 2012 these items are common place to the point of noise. Yet somehow this Towncraft tie with Raleigh cigarettes lit with matches from an airport concession operator became exotic, wild and unique.
So what’s the provenance/pedigree? Mother of pearl and gold plate sure compliments the JC Penny tie, Raleigh cigarettes and Sky Chef matches for price point, taste and quality.
I went so far as to craft a DB Cooper orbital chart (because I’m awesome) of how far I presently sit from all the rare and uncommon artifacts associated with the hijacking.
Pack of Raleigh’s, assuming they are still made is 300 yards from me. A JC Penny store is a whopping 3.4 miles, which supplied the tie and apparently the clasp (even though the Penny manager in Las Vegas denied having such items to the FBI). Leaving the Sky Chefs matchbook at the greatest distance of 21 miles, which is sort of moot since one typically hijacks airplanes at airports.
Even in 2012 these items are common place to the point of noise. Yet somehow this Towncraft tie with Raleigh cigarettes lit with matches from an airport concession operator became exotic, wild and unique.
Farflung 0
RobertMBlevins astonishingly responds with:
“Geestman's sister didn't say she 'saw one'. She said she recognized the tie clasp in the FBI picture as one belonging to Christiansen….”
georger just posted a very similar appearing clasp which matches the FBI photo and the two clasps for sale on eBay. But Dawn J can distinguish between the clasp in the FBI photo and all others? And you believe this?
Well then case closed, obviously. Sure would have been easier if you had said this from the beginning instead of all that Pacific Ocean feeds the Columbia and Captain Scott talked to Cooper stuff. Since Bernie’s sister identified the tie clasp in the FBI photo as Kenny’s then you should call the FBI and let them know this. Be sure to give them all your information so you will get credit for the identification of DB Cooper, since it is a pretty sure bet that the tie clasp in the photo was worn by Cooper and the tie clasp IS Kenny’s; then there is nothing left to ponder.
Good job RobertMBlevins, a grateful thread participant salutes you.
“Geestman's sister didn't say she 'saw one'. She said she recognized the tie clasp in the FBI picture as one belonging to Christiansen….”
georger just posted a very similar appearing clasp which matches the FBI photo and the two clasps for sale on eBay. But Dawn J can distinguish between the clasp in the FBI photo and all others? And you believe this?
Well then case closed, obviously. Sure would have been easier if you had said this from the beginning instead of all that Pacific Ocean feeds the Columbia and Captain Scott talked to Cooper stuff. Since Bernie’s sister identified the tie clasp in the FBI photo as Kenny’s then you should call the FBI and let them know this. Be sure to give them all your information so you will get credit for the identification of DB Cooper, since it is a pretty sure bet that the tie clasp in the photo was worn by Cooper and the tie clasp IS Kenny’s; then there is nothing left to ponder.
Good job RobertMBlevins, a grateful thread participant salutes you.
mrshutter45 21
What if he picked up the matches in a airport lounge?
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI
Farflung 0
Well the Sky Chef contract covered the flight kitchen for numerous airlines, the airport restaurant, bar and newsstand. So it would stand to reason that one could acquire some Sky Chef matches at any of those sources. I just don’t get all tingly and lightheaded over matches from an airport services company on a hijacked airline.
Now if Cooper was holding some other type of matches then there could have been some sort of clue. Matches from a ‘Fear of Flying’ clinic would have been a good but not friggin Sky Chef.
Now if Cooper was holding some other type of matches then there could have been some sort of clue. Matches from a ‘Fear of Flying’ clinic would have been a good but not friggin Sky Chef.
Farflung 0
Here’s some basic numbers to measure Dawn K’s (her real name) claim that she saw Kenny’s tie clasp, not the same type since that is what georger and I were discussing, but Kenny’s personal tie clasp in the FBI photo.
There were approximately 2,000 JC Penney stores with that tie clasp produced from 1960 to 1968.
Each store selling 6 per year, for 8 years of production, is 96,000 units (tens of thousands/mass produced). If each tie clasp was viewed by 10 people (too much of a stretch?), then that makes 960,000 people who conservatively observed a DB Cooper style tie clasp. Not exactly a noteworthy experience.
But, Dawn K identified the ‘ONE’ in the FBI photo which was mixed with a dozen other photos (as you do) and said, “Hey, this photo out of the dozens presented, has Kenny Christiansen’s tie clasp. I say this to the exclusion of all others.” That must be how it happened, it’s not like she was handed ONE picture and asked a question cause that would just be stoopid.
Obviously georger and I were incorrect in assuming this mass produced item which was clipped on a massed produced tie which was around mass produced matches and mass produced cigarettes were in fact easy to identify by a Bible thumping granny. Yeah, sounds like the quality everyone has come to expect from AB. Sure, no argument here, just waiting for you to tell the FBI all this so you can get the recognition so richly deserved. Sincerely.
There were approximately 2,000 JC Penney stores with that tie clasp produced from 1960 to 1968.
Each store selling 6 per year, for 8 years of production, is 96,000 units (tens of thousands/mass produced). If each tie clasp was viewed by 10 people (too much of a stretch?), then that makes 960,000 people who conservatively observed a DB Cooper style tie clasp. Not exactly a noteworthy experience.
But, Dawn K identified the ‘ONE’ in the FBI photo which was mixed with a dozen other photos (as you do) and said, “Hey, this photo out of the dozens presented, has Kenny Christiansen’s tie clasp. I say this to the exclusion of all others.” That must be how it happened, it’s not like she was handed ONE picture and asked a question cause that would just be stoopid.
Obviously georger and I were incorrect in assuming this mass produced item which was clipped on a massed produced tie which was around mass produced matches and mass produced cigarettes were in fact easy to identify by a Bible thumping granny. Yeah, sounds like the quality everyone has come to expect from AB. Sure, no argument here, just waiting for you to tell the FBI all this so you can get the recognition so richly deserved. Sincerely.
I'm not sure if it matters, but in the attached picture taken at her interview,
Quote
...and she's okay with having her photo posted here?
How exactly does doing that help solve this 'case' ??
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
georger 197
Obviously georger and I were incorrect in assuming this mass produced item which was clipped on a massed produced tie which was around mass produced matches and ...
Firstly, the FBI's Cooper JCP tie clasp shows a
stamp. Tom never mentioned this, or Im missing
it on his website. See the attached. Maybe it reads
'18K G' or something like that? But the markings
are obvious.
Secondly, you can see what appears to be a similar
marking (I think you can), on the non FBI JCP 18k
Gold set I furnished photos of. The positions of the
markings on the two clasps may not be identical.
See attached comparison photo-
The nonFBI set is 18K Gold. A strike & solution test
confirms that. However, to my knowledge neither
Tom or the FBi have ever mentioned doing any tests
to confirm if their JCP clasp is 18K gold ?
Cooper's clasp looks slightly worn in the neck area
compared to the nonFBI clasp, especially where the
neck joins the pearl housing. And the castings of the
two clasps may be different? I have noted the area
affected on the attached photo -
There will be more coming on these issues, I hope.
Lastly, when the issue of right vs left hand clasp
mountings first surfaced I wondered if this was simply
an artifact of image processing by different authors.
Specifically mirror imaging of original FBI photos, and
at least in one example that appears to be the case.
In the composite photo attached, photos 1-3 are
official FBI photos taken directly from their
websites. Photo #4 was taken from a Google image
search from someone else's website. Clearly photo-4
is a mirror image version of an original FBI photo.
Photo-4 shows a tie clasp with its orientation
changed due to mirror imaging by the author who
posted it. Likewise, it is clear someone at the FBI
had the tie clasp off and then remounted it in
different positions, for their official photos! Thjis
leaves no way of knowing what position the tie clasp
was in when mounted to its artifact, as found by the
FBi team in Reno! Maybe there is an FBI photo
somewhere that authenticates how and in what
position the tie clasp was found, on the plane at Reno, (if it even matters!) ?
But, the FBI official photos show the clasp mounted
in two permutations of the position normal. Funny!
My guess is the FBI keeps the tie and the clasp in
separate evidence folders (because they are two
distinct items), then mounts the clasp to the tie for
official photo work, and removes the clasp back to
its evidence folder after photo work is done -
Geeze Farflung we have gone thru this before - now we are running repeats.
At this stage of the game - even Barb Drayton looks like a good suspect - right! BOY, that would really do some damage to Knoss!
Get ready for what is to come.
Duane Weber has disappeared from Cooper World...just as the once infamous Coffelt disappeared. Weber and Coffelt shared a common thread - links to government crap - note the suspects who stay in the lime light had NO secret connections.
So what is the real STORY behind the FBI's inability to nail Cooper. I am sure no one needs to spell it out. 
BET you Knoss JUMPS on this like a bee to sweet nectar. Wait - his story will evolve yet again as he introduces NEW info.
Knoss is the REASON the FBI stopped investigating Duane Weber.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Quote
Firstly, the FBI's Cooper JCP tie clasp shows a
stamp. Tom never mentioned this, or Im missing
it on his website. See the attached. Maybe it reads
'18K G' or something like that? But the markings
are obvious.
Secondly, you can see what appears to be a similar
marking (I think you can), on the non FBI JCP 18k
Gold set I furnished photos of. The positions of the
markings on the two clasps may not be identical.
See attached comparison photo-
The nonFBI set is 18K Gold. A strike & solution test
confirms that. However, to my knowledge neither
Tom or the FBi have ever mentioned doing any tests
to confirm if their JCP clasp is 18K gold ?
Cooper's clasp looks slightly worn in the neck area
compared to the nonFBI clasp, especially where the
neck joins the pearl housing. And the castings of the
two clasps may be different? I have noted the area
affected on the attached photo -
There will be more coming on these issues, I hope.
Lastly, when the issue of right vs left hand clasp
mountings first surfaced I wondered if this was simply
an artifact of image processing by different authors.
Specifically mirror imaging of original FBI photos, and
at least in one example that appears to be the case.
In the composite photo attached, photos 1-3 are
official FBI photos taken directly from their
websites. Photo #4 was taken from a Google image
search from someone else's website. Clearly photo-4
is a mirror image version of an original FBI photo.
Photo-4 shows a tie clasp with its orientation
changed due to mirror imaging by the author who
posted it. Likewise, it is clear someone at the FBI
had the tie clasp off and then remounted it in
different positions, for their official photos! Thjis
leaves no way of knowing what position the tie clasp
was in when mounted to its artifact, as found by the
FBi team in Reno! Maybe there is an FBI photo
somewhere that authenticates how and in what
position the tie clasp was found, on the plane at Reno, (if it even matters!) ?
But, the FBI official photos show the clasp mounted
in two permutations of the position normal. Funny!
My guess is the FBI keeps the tie and the clasp in
separate evidence folders (because they are two
distinct items), then mounts the clasp to the tie for
official photo work, and removes the clasp back to
its evidence folder after photo work is done -
Georger, Have you even looked at the tac Duane is wearing in this pic? It is an old polaroid pic and this is the best I can do with it!
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
BobKnoss 0
QuoteQuoteQuote
Dawn J's ID on the clasp, IMHO, means much more.
Original written word is gospel. Gold BYU lapel pin with the initials RFMjr on the back. See attached. Now in the repossession of RFMjr. Look it up.
Better yet, give me your free lie detector test, questions approved by 377.
SOURCING REFERENCES:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_McCoy,_Jr.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/617578_Richard_McCoy__Jr__EOD_Rotary_Wing_Pilot__Hijacker__Prison_break.html
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=408416
www.docstoc.com/docs/91631159/Richard_McCoy__Jr
http://mywikibiz.com/Richard_McCoy,_Jr.
www.dropzone.com/forum/...C1/.../DB_Cooper_P3110098-738
www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=252245...3
I had 'at length' discussions about this pin with Duane and McCoy. The FBI originally released this information themselves. It is in Bernie Rhodes book. It is the real story and illustrates FBI involvement, McCoy's FBI connections, and the cover up in the project from the beginning. McCoy bought the tie clasp and got it exchanged for his gold pin. Truth! Fact.
All your discussion of a tie clasp is beyond funny, left-right, all that. When you want to hear the WHOLE story about the "drop", I'll be around to explain. Or Karen could tell you, but she definitely WILL NOT. That is hard evidence!
With this new forensic tool, one can now construct exactly what can’t be portrayed using the over 300,000 words contained within the English language. Some things can’t and most certainly have not been described with those letter-y word things on this thread and I think it is a shame.
I hope people will use the I-Dent-A-Kit to better convey their message of truth driven by nothing but pure and honorable intent which the FBI has so egregiously ignored. You’re welcome.
Share this post
Link to post
Share on other sites