DB Cooper

[Chaucer 104]

Sorry, Bob, you're wrong.

In 1971, NWA had its own radio network. I've spoken with folks at the NWA Historical Center and people who were radio operators for NWA. I've also spoken with a woman who worked for ARINC her entire life and recently retired after writing a paper on the system. The teletype for NORJACK is not ARINC. It was an in-house teletype. 

You also wrong in that I haven't studied the transcripts. I have studied them intently. Perhaps you should go give them and the teletype another look.

See, you decided that you were right ten years ago and stopped researching. While you have spent your time being condescending to me and others, I have dived into the communications aspect of this case, researched every aspect of the communications that night, spoken to men and women involved in the process, and consulted experts. You're ten years behind, Robert. 

If I thought you'd actually pay attention to and synthesize the information, I share it with you, but I know you well enough to know that you'd just list all of your credentials and then tell me to read the FAA manual. 

[olemisscub 466]

Cini's ransom 

[Robert99 37]

1 hour ago, Chaucer said:

Sorry, Bob, you're wrong.

In 1971, NWA had its own radio network. I've spoken with folks at the NWA Historical Center and people who were radio operators for NWA. I've also spoken with a woman who worked for ARINC her entire life and recently retired after writing a paper on the system. The teletype for NORJACK is not ARINC. It was an in-house teletype. 

You also wrong in that I haven't studied the transcripts. I have studied them intently. Perhaps you should go give them and the teletype another look.

See, you decided that you were right ten years ago and stopped researching. While you have spent your time being condescending to me and others, I have dived into the communications aspect of this case, researched every aspect of the communications that night, spoken to men and women involved in the process, and consulted experts. You're ten years behind, Robert. 

If I thought you'd actually pay attention to and synthesize the information, I share it with you, but I know you well enough to know that you'd just list all of your credentials and then tell me to read the FAA manual. 

Chaucer, the above is just more of your nonsense.

Would the lady who claims that the NWA teletype transcripts are not from ARINC care to release her paper for public viewing?

We can compare her comments to what ARINC headquarters management personnel were telling Fred Poynter and myself a few years ago.

A number of decades ago, it was quite common for companies with widespread branches to have their own teletype systems for communications between those branches.  And NWA probably had one as well.

Nevertheless, the communications with NWA aircraft in flight was through the ARINC radio/teletype system.  Take a look at the Harrison teletype transcripts and you can see that they are all through the ARINC system.

Also, a number of decades ago, aircraft on long international flights would usually have two pilots (at least), a flight engineer, a navigator, and a radio operator.

Chaucer, are you claiming that the radio operator who was a member of the flight crew was also part of some NWA radio network?

But by the time of the Cooper hijacking in 1971, the navigators and radio operators had disappeared from most airline flight crews and the flight engineers would soon disappear as well.

Chaucer, you need to explain your claims.

Finally, you wouldn't know me from Adam.  

[Chaucer 104]

The NORJACK teletype is not an ARINC teletype. It was done in-house by an NWA radio operator located in Minneapolis. I can even tell you which hangar at NWA HQ it was done at. 

Ask yourself:  why would ARINC be teletyping message that were over an NWA frequency?

NWA 305 did not switch over to an ARINC frequency until approximately 8:20. This isn't opinion. An examination of the teletype along with Soderlind's own notes indicate as such. 

I have explained my claims to people I like, people who are interested, and people who would understand.

You are none of those. 

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Chaucer

[JAGdb 71]

8 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Cini's ransom 

Nice pic, so a paper band holding 50 ten dollar bills for a packet and then rubber bands binding multiple packets?  it's hard to tell exactly.   This was delivered from a bank in Montana I believe. 

[olemisscub 466]

1 hour ago, JAGdb said:

Nice pic, so a paper band holding 50 ten dollar bills for a packet and then rubber bands binding multiple packets?  it's hard to tell exactly.   This was delivered from a bank in Montana I believe. 

The Cooper money looked exactly like this according to multiple conversations with Bill Grinnell. 5 packet bundles.

 

 

[georger 197]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

The Cooper money looked exactly like this according to multiple conversations with Bill Grinnell. 5 packet bundles.

 

 

Grinnel/OleMiss Version:  5 packet bundles = 40k$ per packet bundle. How many packets per bundle? So, each packet has no rubber bands ?  Bands are only around each of the five  large packet bundles.

The Ingrams version:  found 3 groups amounting to about 5800+.  Each group had band remnants they spent time picking off (Harold's brother took on that task) .  Each group was assumed to be an original rubber banded bundle, so three bundles of about $2000 each. Serial numbers in the bundles were still in the same order as when given to Cooper so no tampering or change from the original form as given. How does that square with your Grinnel version ?  It doesnt fit Grinnel's version.

 

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by georger

[FLYJACK 654]

45 minutes ago, georger said:

Grinnel/OleMiss Version:  5 packet bundles = 40k$ per packet bundle. How many packets per bundle? So, each packet has no rubber bands ?  Bands are only around each of the five  large packet bundles.

The Ingrams version:  found 3 groups amounting to about 5800+.  Each group had band remnants they spent time picking off (Harold's brother took on that task) .  Each group was assumed to be an original rubber banded bundle, so three bundles of about $2000 each. Serial numbers in the bundles were still in the same order as when given to Cooper so no tampering or change from the original form as given. How does that square with your Grinnel version ?  It doesnt fit Grinnel's version.

 

 

Packets were $2000 each x 5 - $10,000 per bundle.  

Grinnel made some errors, there were reports of randomized bundles,, if so there could have been 3 packet bundles. Rubber band frags were on two of the three packets, that indicates a top and bottom packet and only 3 in the bundle. If it was a 5 packet bundle then two of the middle packets would have to have washed away,, unlikely.

Given all the evidence, it was most likely a 3 packet bundle.

[georger 197]

22 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Packets were $2000 each x 5 - $10,000 per bundle.  

Grinnel made some errors, there were reports of randomized bundles,, if so there could have been 3 packet bundles. Rubber band frags were on two of the three packets, that indicates a top and bottom packet and only 3 in the bundle. If it was a 5 packet bundle then two of the middle packets would have to have washed away,, unlikely.

Given all the evidence, it was most likely a 3 packet bundle.

That is closer.  I regret others didnt nail this down years ago when we had the chance.

[olemisscub 466]

27 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Packets were $2000 each x 5 - $10,000 per bundle.  

Grinnel made some errors, there were reports of randomized bundles,, if so there could have been 3 packet bundles. Rubber band frags were on two of the three packets, that indicates a top and bottom packet and only 3 in the bundle. If it was a 5 packet bundle then two of the middle packets would have to have washed away,, unlikely.

Given all the evidence, it was most likely a 3 packet bundle.

Chaucer has had multiple interviews with Grinnell now and has some thoughts about the randomized bundles. I’ll let him tell it since it’s his research.

Grinnell will be at CC this year.

[georger 197]

5 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Chaucer has had multiple interviews with Grinnell now and has some thoughts about the randomized bundles. I’ll let him tell it since it’s his research.

Grinnell will be at CC this year.

Since Grinnel is now the expert on how the money was packed, into 5 mega bundolas, or five packetolae, or five Grinnolas... it shouldnt be too difficult to extrapolate which of the five mega cash bales the Ingram money came from and where in that package the Ingram serial numbers fit.  So, did the Ingram bills come from the top, middle, end, or where in one of the five bricks?  Had that large brick fallen apart or what... to leave the three Ingram orphan groups alone in the sand, bereft and abandoned on Tena Bar?  Grinnel has his work cut out for him !  That alone should warrant a symposium of speculation at CC23.   

[olemisscub 466]

3 hours ago, georger said:

Since Grinnel is now the expert on how the money was packed, into 5 mega bundolas, or five packetolae, or five Grinnolas... it shouldnt be too difficult to extrapolate which of the five mega cash bales the Ingram money came from and where in that package the Ingram serial numbers fit.  So, did the Ingram bills come from the top, middle, end, or where in one of the five bricks?  Had that large brick fallen apart or what... to leave the three Ingram orphan groups alone in the sand, bereft and abandoned on Tena Bar?  Grinnel has his work cut out for him !  That alone should warrant a symposium of speculation at CC23.   

Again, Grinnell has offered a possible explanation of 3 packet bundles existing. But I’ll let Chaucer explain that. 

[FLYJACK 654]

51 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Again, Grinnell has offered a possible explanation of 3 packet bundles existing. But I’ll let Chaucer explain that. 

Another variable is the money Cooper offered the stews.. that may have altered a bundle size.

Edited September 13, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 466]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Another variable is the money Cooper offered the stews.. that may have altered a bundle size.

Agreed. I doubt he offered Tina a full bundle. Probably pulled a packet or two out of a bundle and handed that to her. 

[Chaucer 104]

Both Grinnell interview transcripts have been made available on the Facebook group. 

I asked Mr. Grinnell about whether the bundles were randomized (some with five, some with four, some with three, etc.). He said that he didn't see them close enough to know for sure if they were randomized or if they were the standard five packet bundle. 

He did say that the ransom money was kept in a safe within the vault in bags containing paper-strapped packets of various denominations and that money was then removed from those bags and packaged together. He cannot say exactly how those packets were bundled - only that typically they were bundles of five paper-strapped packets secured on either end by rubber bands. 

The upshot is that Mr. Grinnell explained clearly the standard operating procedure for bundling money (five paper-strapped packets secured on either end with rubber bands), but also said that he could not say for sure that was how the Cooper money was bundled. He left open the possibility that due to the emergent nature of the situation, bank employees bundled the money more quickly and thus differently than the SOP. 

It doesn't provide a clear answer, I know, but I think it's reasonable to assume that the money provided to Cooper on the plane was same as was found on Tena Bar. 

[Chaucer 104]

Also, Tom Kaye posted this to the Facebook group about a month ago...

[georger 197]

3 hours ago, Chaucer said:

Also, Tom Kaye posted this to the Facebook group about a month ago...

Im dumbfounded. The Cooper money might be a portal into another dimension !  No human intervention in the wrapping. 

Damn!  The money packaging was automated. Robots did it all.  Milking machine converted to wrap money for hijackings then bark like a dog when finished ?   How did Carr ever miss this! ?  

Edited September 13, 2023 by georger

[Chaucer 104]

3 hours ago, georger said:

Im dumbfounded. The Cooper money might be a portal into another dimension !  No human intervention in the wrapping. 

Damn!  The money packaging was automated. Robots did it all.  Milking machine converted to wrap money for hijackings then bark like a dog when finished ?   How did Carr ever miss this! ?  

Hang on...let me provide some context. There were some in the FB group who were suggesting that the seeming discrepancies between Grinnell's description of the money and the way it was found on Tena Bar indicated re-packaging of the money in the days and/or months after the hijacking.

So, what Tom is saying is that based on his re-examination, there doesn't appear to be any re-packaging of the money by a human after the hijacking ie. the money was found by Brian the same way it was delivered to Cooper. 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Chaucer

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, Chaucer said:

Hang on...let me provide some context. There were some in the FB group who were suggesting that the seeming discrepancies between Grinnell's description of the money and the way it was found on Tena Bar indicated re-packaging of the money in the days and/or months after the hijacking.

So, what Tom is saying is that based on his re-examination, there doesn't appear to be any re-packaging of the money by a human after the hijacking ie. the money was found by Brian the same way it was delivered to Cooper. 

That is what the FBI concluded,

[Chaucer 104]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

That is what the FBI concluded,

Yes, I believe there is a news article from 1980 in which an Agent Baker is quoted saying that very same thing. 

[georger 197]

5 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

That is what the FBI concluded,

 

post removed due to lack of interest

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by georger

[Chaucer 104]

This is how Grinnell (and his wife who was a teller at the same bank) described how a money bundle was typically packaged:

This tracks with him describing the feeling of the money in the bag on his lap as "bricks" "lumps" and "chunks".

I think the bill/rubber band contact is interesting, georger. Can you elaborate on what the implications of that are?

Lastly, I asked Brian Ingram about the positioning of the rubber bands a few months ago. Here is what he said:

"Don't have a real strong memory of the rubber band positioning. I called my mother to ask, and she said her memory says individually wrapped bundles, but due to the conditions of the rubber bands, she's not 100% sure on that." 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Chaucer

[Robert99 37]

On 9/12/2023 at 11:42 AM, Chaucer said:

The NORJACK teletype is not an ARINC teletype. It was done in-house by an NWA radio operator located in Minneapolis. I can even tell you which hangar at NWA HQ it was done at. 

Ask yourself:  why would ARINC be teletyping message that were over an NWA frequency?

NWA 305 did not switch over to an ARINC frequency until approximately 8:20. This isn't opinion. An examination of the teletype along with Soderlind's own notes indicate as such. 

I have explained my claims to people I like, people who are interested, and people who would understand.

You are none of those. 

 

Chaucer, the above is simply not true.  You need to start citing facts and it would help if you made some effort to familiarize yourself with aeronautical matters.

First, you need to download the ARINC teletype transcripts relating to the hijacking for the period 3:07 PM PST till 8:20 PM PST that are available on Shutter's site, I think.  Anyway, they constitute eight printed pages.

With one single exception, these all originated with ARINC Seattle, and that exception is at 3:20 PM that originated from MSP.  It should also be noted that the messages at 7:34 PM and 8:24 PM do not refer to NWA 305 but to other NWA aircraft that were not involved in the hijacking.

What follows is a brief discussion of some points in the ARINC transcripts.

3:07 PM  -  The NWA 305 crew sent a message thru the ARINC system that they had taken off from Portland at 2:58 PM and that their ETA at Seattle was 3:26 PM.

3:13 PM  -  The crew sent another message thru the ARINC system that they were being hijacked.

3:20 PM  -  MSP sent a message to Seattle that the hijacker boarded in Portland.

8:12 PM  -  Crew reported oscillations in the cabin.  According to the Seattle ATC radio transcripts, NWA 305 reported that it was at 10,000 feet altitude.  This completely disproves some claims that Cooper jumped at 7,000 feet altitude.

8:20 PM  -  MSP tells SEA to tell NWA 305 to go to 131.8 and SEA replies that the airliner is already on that frequency.   The phone patch seems to have been established about this time.

The ARINC frequency in Seattle was 131.8.  There is no record of who was assigned the frequency of 131.9 but it was apparently a frequency for another ARINC ground station and probably one in the San Francisco area.

According to the ARINC transcripts, the airliner continued to transmit to the ARINC ground station even while it was on the ground at SEATAC and while transmitting on the NWA ground frequency and the SEATAC tower ground control frequency.

The NWA ground frequency at Seattle is never mentioned and would probably not be published.  It would only be used by NWA aircraft and the SEATAC tower personnel.

There is no indication of NWA having its own radio network, whatever that is supposed to be.

[georger 197]

1 hour ago, Chaucer said:

This is how Grinnell (and his wife who was a teller at the same bank) described how a money bundle was typically packaged:

This tracks with him describing the feeling of the money in the bag on his lap as "bricks" "lumps" and "chunks".

I think the bill/rubber band contact is interesting, georger. Can you elaborate on what the implications of that are?

Lastly, I asked Brian Ingram about the positioning of the rubber bands a few months ago. Here is what he said:

"Don't have a real strong memory of the rubber band positioning. I called my mother to ask, and she said her memory says individually wrapped bundles, but due to the conditions of the rubber bands, she's not 100% sure on that." 

 

ok thanks ..........

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by georger

[olemisscub 466]

47 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

First, you need to download the ARINC teletype transcripts relating to the hijacking for the period 3:07 PM PST till 8:20 PM PST that are available on Shutter's site, I think.  Anyway, they constitute eight printed pages.

Thanks for pointing this out to him. I’m sure he’s never seen those transcripts before. 

they’re on my website too. 
https://norjak.org/files/