snowmman 3
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bozo 0
Its a moot point. He didnt have a reserve.
Humans can drop 20 ft without injury, if done right. I don't think any "risk due to tree" theory holds water?
Maybe people have some experience landing in trees. If you land in a 40-50 ft tree with a deployed 28' round, what's the typical distance to ground for your feet? I would think you're not going to catch up near the top. So a 20 ft (or less) drop should be doable.
Basically, I don't see the risk that's being raised here?
The risk might not necessarily be falling that twenty feet.
Tree landing requires a specialized training. You are taught , once commited to the tree, to cross your arms across the body with the hands in the opposite armpits protecting the arteries there and the jugulars in the neck the legs.The knees need to be kept tightly closed to prevent damage to the femoral artery in the crotch area.
A lot of ....yes a lot...of jumpers have landed in trees and bled to death before anyone could get to them.
So you see the greatest danger in a tree landing isnt a fall.......its the branches that can and will shred a human body.
bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.
grimmie 176
Crashing, not landing, into a tall tree without any safety gear on is going to hurt. Now add a 20ft fall to get down. The injury factor is very high. And yes, I have done one tree landing on a base jump, it wasn't fun...
snowmman 3
Attached are some graphs showing weather data over the year (last year?) from Orchards, WA.
from http://www.city-data.com/city/Orchards-Washington.html
It's interesting, because it helps set the baseline for what might be considered normal weather. In the past we've debated "why didn't Cooper abort due to bad weather"
Well, bad weather is a subjective perception. I think we have to understand the background normal to understand what Cooper might be considered bad (and predicted "better" at some alternate future date, if aborted on 11/24/71)
I think these graphs help that.
from http://www.city-data.com/city/Orchards-Washington.html
It's interesting, because it helps set the baseline for what might be considered normal weather. In the past we've debated "why didn't Cooper abort due to bad weather"
Well, bad weather is a subjective perception. I think we have to understand the background normal to understand what Cooper might be considered bad (and predicted "better" at some alternate future date, if aborted on 11/24/71)
I think these graphs help that.
ltdiver 3
Quote
377,
An aside here:
Looking at your sig line, and what Ckret feels he 'bounces between' (Johnny Utah and Johnny Castle) I think both of you should team up and see this production: "Point Break--Live!"
ltdiver
Quote
Orange,
Huh?
Quote
Where do you find this esoteric obscure stuff? Google? It's not like you are a tuned-in local. LA/Hollywood are on a different planet. I hope it runs in San Francisco, but unlikely. Only one in a thousand up in this area even know what Point Break is.
I didn't find it. Someone posted this in Bonfire. :^) And if you look there it was someone getting skydivers together in San Fransisco for tonight's performance! At the Xeneodrome Theater on Potrero Avenue
Since they seem to be booked 2 weeks in advance, my advice is to hook up with the group that's going tonight (send them a PM--listed in the said thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3243781;search_string=Point%20Break%20Live;#3243781) and get one or two of their tickets. Then you'll not only make new skydiver friends you'll have even more fun!
Quote
Ckret is Johnny Utah, I'll concede out the outset. I'd need a time machine with a reverse gear to audition for that role.
Okay. If you get him to do so take pictures!!!! ;^) In fact, this show -started- in Seattle. Perhaps he's already seen it? Hee Hee Hee...
Quote
We have to get Ckret to jump. I see it as essential job related training.
Yes indeedie. There's Kapow and Snohomish nearby Seattle, since he seems reticent to coming down here to CA.
ltdiver
Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon
.Quote"So basically Cooper runs his mouth enough that the crew felt he had flight experience and the FBI did as well"
Knowing where McChord is from the air is no big deal. I have sat at windows and pointed out things from the air or asked someone else.
Quote"But then when it came to something so important for the success of his crime, the flight path, he then becomes evasive to throw off investigators? "
He was not being evasive - the everyday person would assume the direction of Mexico would take him over his DZ. If the plane had headed out to sea - Cooper would have spoke out ---this is Simple Simon Pie.
Quote"It has not added up yet, but I am waiting."
Me too and thank you Quade for not making your reply technical, so Simple Simons like myself understand.
Quote"Is it possible that he was somewhere in the middle, just an average guy that had learned just enough to be dangerous and, for the most part, just winged it? "
Yes, Yes, Yes because it was DUMB luck - the FBI could not grasp it. Everyone is trying to make it more complicated than it was. All he said was "Mexico" as for directions.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
snowmman 3
I was curious about the specialized training mentioned for tree landings, and looked at the 2008 Interagency Smokejumper Training Guides.
http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/aviation/av_library/sj_guide/index.html
this pdf covers tree landings
http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/aviation/av_library/sj_guide/10_parachute_manipulation.pdf
They recommend keeping the hands on the toggles rather than protecting armpits as mentioned before.
Does the recommended tree landing technique differ depending on the canopy used?
g. Timber landings
1. If a tree landing is unavoidable, hands must be kept on toggles. Landing with brakes on should be accomplished by rotating hands and elbows into the body while still holding toggles. Keep hands and elbows in to prevent grabbing for limbs or injuring elbow.
2. Make sure you are going to land securely by aiming at a point 15 feet from the top of the tree. This will allow the canopy to cover the tree and avoid a poor hang up.
3. If a tree landing is imminent, don’t try to avoid the tree by maneuvering around it. This has caused many injuries to smokejumpers as the canopy collapses as it snags on branches rather than capping the top of the tree.
4. Once secure, communicate to your jump partner and to the aircraft, if possible.
http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/aviation/av_library/sj_guide/index.html
this pdf covers tree landings
http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/aviation/av_library/sj_guide/10_parachute_manipulation.pdf
They recommend keeping the hands on the toggles rather than protecting armpits as mentioned before.
Does the recommended tree landing technique differ depending on the canopy used?
g. Timber landings
1. If a tree landing is unavoidable, hands must be kept on toggles. Landing with brakes on should be accomplished by rotating hands and elbows into the body while still holding toggles. Keep hands and elbows in to prevent grabbing for limbs or injuring elbow.
2. Make sure you are going to land securely by aiming at a point 15 feet from the top of the tree. This will allow the canopy to cover the tree and avoid a poor hang up.
3. If a tree landing is imminent, don’t try to avoid the tree by maneuvering around it. This has caused many injuries to smokejumpers as the canopy collapses as it snags on branches rather than capping the top of the tree.
4. Once secure, communicate to your jump partner and to the aircraft, if possible.
bozo 0
[They recommend keeping the hands on the toggles rather than protecting armpits as mentioned before.
Does the recommended tree landing technique differ depending on the canopy used?
g. Timber landings
1. If a tree landing is unavoidable, hands must be kept on toggles. Landing with brakes on should be accomplished by rotating hands and elbows into the body while still holding toggles. Keep hands and elbows in to prevent grabbing for limbs or injuring elbow.
Does the recommended tree landing technique differ depending on the canopy used?
g. Timber landings
1. If a tree landing is unavoidable, hands must be kept on toggles. Landing with brakes on should be accomplished by rotating hands and elbows into the body while still holding toggles. Keep hands and elbows in to prevent grabbing for limbs or injuring elbow.
This is just another version of the same training.
Still protecting under your arms. The training I cited was used and may still be for non steerable rounds.
bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.
Well guys,
Here it is. I’ve done all I am going to do on my Victor Airways Project. I was going to write an executive summary so folks wouldn’t need to dig through the data themselves, but I’m just completely out of energy.
This is on my server, but not a part of my website, I may put it on the index later, but I promised myself that I wouldn’t use the main site to push my own theories (that’s what my blog is for).
On the page you’ll find there are six routes, V-4 & 25, V-4,31, and 23, V 23, V 27, V165-A, V 165-B, and V 287. The last three I added since I got the Seattle Sectional strip from Ckret. For each route, there is (at a minimum; a Word document with all the data, a GPX file, a Google Earth File, and a few map images.
NOTE:
Due to the fact that I don’t write HTML very well, and that angers the Gods of Computer-dom, I had to do a little “work-around” with the Google Earth and GPX files. They all have text file extensions (i.e. myfile.gpx is myfilegpx.txt). Download the files and rename them with the KML or GPX extension and they will be ready to go. Some browsers may want to rename them as XML files (because that’s what they are). Just change them back manually.
I’m gonna be taking a short break from the forum for a while. I’ve just reached saturation with ground level winds, floating cats, European Sparrows, and movie characters who look like Ckret. I’ll still be lurking, and if someone really needs something, you know how to contact me. My grandson gets here (from Seattle) Saturday morning, so, I’ve cleared my calendar for the next two weeks. I don’t get nearly enough time with that little nipper since I left Washington.
Keep digging, I know the answer is “out there”
Regards,
Sluggo
Oh! Yeah! Here’s the link:
Victor Airways Project
Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum
Here it is. I’ve done all I am going to do on my Victor Airways Project. I was going to write an executive summary so folks wouldn’t need to dig through the data themselves, but I’m just completely out of energy.
This is on my server, but not a part of my website, I may put it on the index later, but I promised myself that I wouldn’t use the main site to push my own theories (that’s what my blog is for).
On the page you’ll find there are six routes, V-4 & 25, V-4,31, and 23, V 23, V 27, V165-A, V 165-B, and V 287. The last three I added since I got the Seattle Sectional strip from Ckret. For each route, there is (at a minimum; a Word document with all the data, a GPX file, a Google Earth File, and a few map images.
NOTE:
Due to the fact that I don’t write HTML very well, and that angers the Gods of Computer-dom, I had to do a little “work-around” with the Google Earth and GPX files. They all have text file extensions (i.e. myfile.gpx is myfilegpx.txt). Download the files and rename them with the KML or GPX extension and they will be ready to go. Some browsers may want to rename them as XML files (because that’s what they are). Just change them back manually.
I’m gonna be taking a short break from the forum for a while. I’ve just reached saturation with ground level winds, floating cats, European Sparrows, and movie characters who look like Ckret. I’ll still be lurking, and if someone really needs something, you know how to contact me. My grandson gets here (from Seattle) Saturday morning, so, I’ve cleared my calendar for the next two weeks. I don’t get nearly enough time with that little nipper since I left Washington.
Keep digging, I know the answer is “out there”
Regards,
Sluggo
Oh! Yeah! Here’s the link:
Victor Airways Project
Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum
Ckret 0
Karma to you Sluggo, thats a large amount of work. Once your re-energized I look forward to our hour together so you can walk me through it the way you see it. Until then enjoy your grandson.
Ckret 0
QuoteQuoteMcCoy gave the flight crew a detailed flight plan because he had a pre-determined dropzone.
And.... McCoy got caught.... in what?... Three days?
Sluggo_Monster
McCoys interaction with the flight crew is not what led to his arrest.
Quote
It is my understanding from going through the file(may be wrong haven't checked) that the prints are not of AFIS quality. I have not found anyhting in the file that shows they were run through the system.
You can make a statement like that and yet you claimed that the FBI used 1944 prints to make a Master File for Duane L. Weber. I do understand that you are NOT talking about Duane above, but
as retired FBI has told me (not Himmelsbach) they would not and could not use the 1944 prints due to the inks and the quality of the prints from 1944) - unless no other prints were available. The agent did not know why I was asking this question or who I was. This was 5 yrs ago.
Below is a post from another member:
Quoteif he doesn't know what V-23 is, if he doesn't really know where the plane is headed, if he doesn't really know where he is, why does he wait and jump where he did. For the money to get to where it was found by natural means, he almost had to jump when the plane was making the right turn as it passed Battle Ground.
When I go to WA in Oct I will show you how he got from a to b to c to d to c. I do not know exactly where he hit the ground - I can only take someone to the items he pointed out in the area he talked about (you will have to invisions trees and tower and shed) the track is still there according to the maps.
He landed W and N of that area - I need to find out what is W and N. of that area, but I do not feel like digging through those old maps which are nothing more than copies of pages pasted together.
It is an old map showing the power lines and pipe lines - all of this goes right back to the area I he took me to. This map contains no details regarding roads. Where he landed I don't know - but, he had obviously carried something which he buried to the point he took me to. He evidently retrieved from the statement he made. I can assure you the shed contained clothing he made use of - perhaps coveralls used by the forestry when they used the tools stored there.
Obviously he did not land where he intended to land, but his plan worked because he knew the area like the back of his hand. He knew where that "VOR" was and he pointed it out to me but I didn't see it (we had already passed it) - he explained something about it at that time, but I wasn't paying any attention. He did not call it the name you guys use.
He just needed to go in the direction of Mexico to get to areas he knew very well - no map needed. He knew things about the plane from exposure but a little
about navigation...I do not believe he ever intended to jump just out of Seattle unless it would be down around McNeil, but that would have been too close to McChord.
He knew were the pipelines and power lines ran and that is what he was looking for. Considering the weather conditions he may just have timed it until he felt the turn. At one point the power lines and pipelines cross each other near the VOR. Maybe he had transportation not too far away, but was afraid to go back after it.
I have asked the FBI before about any reports of a vehicle which may have been parked on what I thought was the old 500, but I understand that all of that changed and wasn't where I was looking back in 2000. I was also at the mercy of others for transportation I didn't know the area well enough to drive there.
If he had someone waiting for him there - he missed his target. If he had someone waiting for him he would have left instructions such as this "If I do not get back to you
by (a certain time) go to xxxxx and I will contact you."
There was a car left near the airport over in the industrial area. It was later stated that this vehicle was a rental belonging to a businessman who left it there. No one ever named that man.
Ckret Where the place card was found - is thare an old cemetary near there? At that point on our way to Seattle he pointed over toward that way and mentioned an old cemetary there.
He never explained his association with that cemetary. He also pointed to the West at that time and said he used to know a woman who had a store there.
Maybe he kept the place card to plant in an area away from his landing point. If his transportation was in Seattle he had to go that way anyway...because of the parking ticket with SeaTac on it. Maybe his companion went to get the car. The FBI would not be looking for this person.
I am sure this bores all of you,
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Ckret 0
Quote
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We have to get Ckret to jump. I see it as essential job related training.
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Yes indeedie. There's Kapow and Snohomish nearby Seattle, since he seems reticent to coming down here to CA.
ltdiver
I looked into it but got as far as the web site and thought better. I have grown cautious as the years go by.
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We have to get Ckret to jump. I see it as essential job related training.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes indeedie. There's Kapow and Snohomish nearby Seattle, since he seems reticent to coming down here to CA.
ltdiver
I looked into it but got as far as the web site and thought better. I have grown cautious as the years go by.
ltdiver 3
QuoteI looked into it but got as far as the web site and thought better. I have grown cautious as the years go by.
Just watched "Point Break" again this afternoon. I see what FBI agents can do. I think you're bluffing...
ltdiver
Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon
Ckret 0
Quote"If Ckret is right and Cooper actually wanted to leave
right after liftoff at Seattle, then V23 is irrelevant."
++++
OK kids... this reminded me about the notion that Mr. Cooper intended to jump very soon after departure... and using common sense MAKES THE MOST SENSE. I am definitely of the opinion that this was his intent... and when that plan got messed up, his delayed bail out resulted in jumping into an unknown DZ...bummer!
It's been explored before probably, but were the known DZ's nearest the departure airport ever investigated... if there was such a drop zone near the airport I'd put money on the fact that our Mr. Cooper had jumped it before. I'm becoming less convinced that he planned to just pick a spot (especially given the low visibility) and jumped...
All DZ in the United States were investigated.
It would be stupid to land in a KNOWN DZ. He headed for private property.
By the way Ckret do you know that the Co-Pilot is very ill. If you haven't talked to him you need to NOW. EVEN now may be too late.
He is the answer to many of the questions...so if you REALLY want this to end - talk to Bill. I have his information.
By the way Ckret do you know that the Co-Pilot is very ill. If you haven't talked to him you need to NOW. EVEN now may be too late.
He is the answer to many of the questions...so if you REALLY want this to end - talk to Bill. I have his information.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Ckret 0
QuoteIt does seem to make the most sense that Cooper wanted to jump right after the plane was airborne in Seattle. Therefore he didn't care about the planes route. However that theory poses some questions.
First, things don't go right so he can't jump right away. When ready, why didn't he tell them he had changed his mind and he wanted to go back to Seattle. When the plane goes back to Seattle he jumps.
Second, why didn't he jump as soon as he was ready. It appears he could have bailed in the area where the placard was found or earlier.
Third, if he doesn't know what V-23 is, if he doesn't really know where the plane is headed, if he doesn't really know where he is, why does he wait and jump where he did. For the money to get to where it was found by natural means, he almost had to jump when the plane was making the right turn as it passed Battle Ground.
Everything on the surfaces directs one to the conclusion you have made, Cooper planned to jump not long out of Seatac.
-The Stews reported he had the chute on and attaching the money to his waist prior to or just after takeoff.
-Wanted the stairs down for takeoff.
-Cooper began his attempt to get the stairs down just minutes after takeoff.
-No directions to crew where to fly so he can coordinate a DZ.
Things went south because he had trouble getting the stairs down, his plan starts to come apart. Thinking on ones feet in this situation takes a moment and generally does not produce the best results.
1) he was focused on getting out asap and did not consider asking the plane to return, he had tunnel vision.
2) From Cooper's action we know he had never jumped from the airstairs. There is a learning curve. He just didn't figure the stairs dropped with body weight, then run off the back of the aircraft.
3) At the point he jumped Cooper was focused on getting out, where didn't matter, he (according to the crew and weather reports) couldn't see the ground so he wouldn't have known where he was anyway. At least with any accuracy for picking out a specific DZ. He jumped at his first opportunity
Check out some property owned by Duane's brother below Seattle - I think Tocoma. This was investment property (apartments or business building sites), but I don't remember what he said it was.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
snowmman 3
Ckret:
in general don't have any problems with your theory on the jump.
But:
need a micro-timeline that resolves
1) when the aft lite came on
2) when the interaction was between Cooper and crew for slowing the plane down
3) oscillations
4) bump
I agree there would be a learning curve. I'm wondering about the exact time of 2)
I don't think we know that yet?
Also, when they slowed down, did they change the flaps to 30? this has been an unresolved myth.
I'm curious about the delay between 2) and 3)
in general don't have any problems with your theory on the jump.
But:
need a micro-timeline that resolves
1) when the aft lite came on
2) when the interaction was between Cooper and crew for slowing the plane down
3) oscillations
4) bump
I agree there would be a learning curve. I'm wondering about the exact time of 2)
I don't think we know that yet?
Also, when they slowed down, did they change the flaps to 30? this has been an unresolved myth.
I'm curious about the delay between 2) and 3)
Ckret 0
QuoteHe didn't tell them "Don't crash the plane" either.
Maybe he didn't tell them because it was obvious they would take V23. i.e. it didn't even occur to him that he needed to spell it out.QuoteIf by setting the parameters so there was no choice but V 23, why not just say, "fly V23" The planes path could be tracked in every way regardless of Coopers demands. So why not just say V 23? Cooper gained nothing by being evasive, he only set himself up for failure. By not declaring a flight path Cooper was the only one blind.
Why, for those forwarding this idea, are you not answering this question? Why? why? why? would Cooper not just tell the crew fly V 23, for the love of all that is good in this world please answer the question.
Lets break it down this way, would we all agree that Cooper relayed to the crew he had advance knowledge of the flight operations of the 727. The crew answered this for us because they stated they believed from his demands and interactions he did.
Since this is true, Cooper gave away a piece of his anonymity.
If Cooper already blew the plan to keep his flight knowledge a secret, why would he decide to become evasive on a critical element such as the flight path. especially when he would know the only one that would be blind would be him. Everyone on the ground would know where the plane was but Cooper. And he would have known that he was blinding himself when there would have been no need to do this.
I can't think of one logical explanation for this. It would be logical to do if Cooper had played dumb from the start and carried it through to the end but he didn't.
It would be logical if this gave Cooper some type of advantage but it didn't, it actually only harmed him.
We know that doing it to throw the investigation away from the airline industry didn't work because we chased leads after many a pilot based on Coopers words.
And we know he didn't do it to hid his DZ because the plane could be tracked from the ground and air.
The only thing left is he didn't ask for a flight path because he didn't care; get money, get chutes, put chute on, strap money on, stairs open at takeoff, jump while I can still see the ground, land and walk away to a new life.
there could be a little bit of arrogance...."Just fly it like this and I'll get out of it and survive"
We've been focused on whether a preplanned flight path is needed for success, based on our perceptions of what we might want if we did the hijack/jump. Cooper may not have perceived it the same way.
Either thru arrogance (anywhere and I'll get it done) or lack of experience. Other things seem to confirm the lack of jump experience...so maybe it was this combination of arrogance and lack of jump experience, leading to no worries about the DZ.
Is there a reason it's obvious Cooper should have been stressed about the DZ, given predictions about his jump experience? I don't think so. Reasonably close to a city would seem to be the only hard requirement.
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