DB Cooper

[hangdiver 1]

A quote out of the Ramparts article about Braden...

"I need work and I don't mean driving somebody's truck"

Just thought that quote was interesting...seeing how he(the alleged SOG Braden) was driving trucks later...

Did Cooper have any "tells" that a truck driver would do?

If I recall correctly...he knew how long it should take to fuel the plane and the truck shuffling he spotted right off...am I recalling correctly...???...

hangdiver

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[EVickiW 0]

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Melvin Wilson does sound interesting as well...I can't recall...did he have any jumping history?

Unsure of that detail, however Melvin was in the Navy during WW2. The U.S.S. Durik was one of the ships he was stationed on. This ship was an escort ship and escorted an air craft carrier at one time during its tour.

The following is a video on YouTube regarding the U.S.S. Durik.... towards the end of the video at 48:58 a man is running past with a parachute. The entire video is interesting and nostalgic, but the cool parts showing the old war planes are 46:53 - 50:45.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q08gWodrl3M

Melvin Luther Wilson - Missing Person since September 1971:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03QLnFvk8Fs

[HankB 0]

I was Braden's CO when he "resigned for the good of the service" with a bar to reenlistment at Fort Dix in 1967. On the day he was discharged he was picked up at the Fort Dix stockade and escourted to the Transfer Station, under orders from the Chief of Staff at Fort Dix, by my XO who was a 1LT armed with a 45 not two Captains. My XO was with Braden through the out processing and then returned to tell me Braden was gone. Given the sequence of events while Braden was assigned to the Special Processing Detachment, including his very special treatment while in solitary confinment, my XO and I knew there was something very unusual happening but not exactly sure what that was. Braden left Fort Dix that day in his Class A uniform, complete with green beret, all ribbons, master jump wings, and highly spit shined boots with bloused trousers. He looked like a recruiting poster photo.

[Buckshot31 0]

That was my missunderstanding about the two captains escorting Ted to the Ft. Dix gate.. Thanks for the correction.

[Orange1 0]

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"I need work and I don't mean driving somebody's truck"

Just thought that quote was interesting...seeing how he(the alleged SOG Braden) was driving trucks later...

hangdiver

Also alleged to be involved in a truck hijacking ring though... Which is probably more lucrative than just driving trucks...and somewhat safer than being a gun for hire in the Congo (which was probably the most messed up of all the messed up African countries in terms of colonization/liberation fights/civil wars.... it still has not recovered from that legacy)

Side note: Baby O turns 3 today

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 21]

A big Happy Birthday to Baby O!

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[BruceSmith 3]

Braden sure had the skills to do Norjack. No question about that.

If he was DBC, and got away with nearly 200K cash in 71, why would he be driving a truck a couple of years later?

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That is the Big Question that Hank, Allen and I (and others) have been wrestling with over the past 24 hours.

377, you may have hit part of it. If Ted was DBC, he may have lost the money and was back in Broke World.

Other scenarios are possible: Ted displayed lots of eradic behavior, going "schizo" in Vietnam as JD Bath has described. Did he have mental health issues that culminated in his bizarre departure from Vietnam in December '66 and his reappearence in the Congo in January '67, with all of this condensing down to 18-wheelers in Pennsy as the only income he could sustain?

Or was the truck gig part of something cooked up by USG Intel? Was Ted conducting surveillance of drug smuggling via 18-wheelers as Allen suggested to me last evening? In effect, was Ted "Running Recon" down I-65 while wearing a white hat?

Or was Ted running recon for covert drug smuggling into the US for black budget ops, ala the Contras and all the CIA's friends in the land of Los Columbianos?

Or are there two Teds?

Also, Ted was well-known in Europe and apparently in Vietnam, as Allen described to me. Ted had a relationship with Gen. John Singlaub, and apparently they served together somewhere, possibly in Korea, as brother officers. Further, Singlaub was in command of SOG, too, and was apparently Ted's boss. What does all this mean? Further, how could a guy as well connected as Ted end up driving an 18-wheeler in Bowling Green, Kentucky in 1975?

Further, if he was realy looking for combat work and pay, why was he advertsing in Ramparts? Why didn't he just call Singlaub?

But let's take this back to DB Cooper. If Ted was Cooper, why would he pose for Ramparts and tell his AWOL story?

Is that our Danny Boy - so wild and wacky and out of the box that he would advertise himself - have his face in front of millions of readers - and then hijack an airplane a few years later?

The mystery continues.

I'm calling Billy Waugh and John Plaster next. I'll keep y'all posted.

In my bones I don't think Ted is DB. Yes, Ted had the skills to do the job, but did he want to do the job? My intuition says that DB Cooper was deeper in the military than Ted ever got. Some unit much more cloaked, a unit where nobody ever talked, filled with guys who breathed secrecy, who needed the anonymity like a fish needs water. It was home to them.

Buddies of Jake? I've got a call into Geoff to see about connecting with ol' Jake, whose exploits are described in Skyjack. Ah, if Jake can get to Ariel, now that would be one heckuva celebration.

• Quote

[377 21]

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We used the B-12 type parachute. It was originally a parachute used by pilots, and loadmasters on cargo flights. We modified the canopies with either five or seven gore TUs. At Ft. Bragg in 59and 60 time period, we started out with a double L modifications and moved up to TUs.,


The rip cords were installed on the left side of the harness by the factory. Most right handed jumpers moved the rip cord to the right side of the harness for an outboard pull.. Most of us would take a white canopy and die it various colors. I had two red, white and blue canopies. Most jumpers used the old army front mounted reserve.

I had a Navy flat seat pack parachute for a reserve.

You ask about Vietnam. My first tour was from Jun 67 to Jun 68. I was assigned to 1st Air Cav Div, 1st SQD, 9th Cav, A Troop. I was field artillery air forward observer. My job was to fly as right door gunner, and artillery forward observer in the troop commander's huey gun ship. 1/9th Air Cav was an Air Recon Unit, and we worked the same general area along the DMZ as the Special Forces.

Upon returning to the states, I attended helicoper flight school, and the field artillery advance course. My second tour was with the 23d Inf Div , the 178th ASHC in Chulai. I flew CH-47 Chinooks my second tour. We flew and supported, US, South Viet , and SF troops. Second tour was Jan 71 to Jan 72. Have a great day. Every day above ground is a fantastic day. Enjoy....

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

Interesting info from Bruce and relayed via 377... Thanks guys.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[ClassClown 0]

Yeah, good reading from Bruce Smith, more psycho babble from Jo.......................

[377 21]

I can't see Ted Braden driving truck, the one specific thing he said he never wanted to do.

If he had enough dirt on the govt to turn wartime desertion into an honorable discharge on orders from way up, surely he could have wrangled a more interesting and exciting job. Ted was an adrenaline junkie.

When his wife said Ted did some jail time I wonder what he was convicted of. He may have haf a DUI, but first time drunk drivers rarely get time.

One thing I do recall about my jet exit is that the initial windblast was very strong. It ripped the goggles off my face, something that never happened on hundreds of prior jumps. Others had similar experiences and there were a few things lost. It was weird slowing down during the initial part of the freefall. I think our exit speed was about 175 mph or so.

Without the requested knapsack it's possible that whatever Cooper rigged up to carry the loot came open or broke free. Still, SOG jumpers knew far more about securing payloads than skydivers did.

Braden sure makes a good Cooper, but that doesn't make him Cooper.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Hominid 0]

Let's assume that Dan did not figure out a way to jam something between the struts and the stairwell walls to keep the stairs wide open. Or maybe he just didn't want to harm the crew.

As he stands on the step at the pivot, the stairs are hanging down about 20° below the normal stowed position. The air sweeping by pushes up on the stairs enough to keep them from falling farther. At the pivot, the stairs are pushing up on the aircraft fuselage. Think of it like the air is a hand under the middle of the airstair. The weight of the stairs and the force down by the struts are pushing down out toward the end, which pushes the forward end of the stairs up--like a see-saw. The pilot may have adjusted trim to compensate for the upward push and tail pitch-up.

Dan is standing at the pivot pushing down with his weight of about 230 pounds. So the stairs are pushing up, and Dan is pushing down. He takes a couple of steps down the moveable part of the stairs, beyond the step at the pivot, and the stairs drop some more. He makes his way on out to the end of the stairs and they drop some more, down to about 33° as shown in the pictures from the flight test. His weight is still pushing down on the stairs the same as before, but the airflow now pushes up on the pivot more than when Dan was not out there.

Dan walking out to the end of the stairs has increased the push up on the aft end of the plane, causing the aft end to "pitch up" (again, as flight ops had told the crew to expect). The pilot may have again adjusted trim to compensate for the additional upward force (and tail pitch-up).

Creeping out the stairs does not cause any oscillation, which could have occurred only if Dan had hopped his way HEAVILY out to the end (and dealt with the stairs jumping back at him with every hop). It would take "heavily" because "cush" in the lower struts dampen the movement of the stair.

When Dan gets down to the end of the stairs, he is not hanging out in the airstream. He is on the stairs, and the stairs function as a wind break. Think of it as hunkering down behind the windshield on a motorcycle zipping along upside down. There is no air blast. It's cold. The air is about -12C° as R99 has pointed out. I'm not sure of what warming there might be from the proximity of the side engines. There would be a little breeziness, but there would not be much windchill because there wasn't much wind.

The effectiveness of Dan's wind shield is improved by the screens attached to the handrails. He could stand there all he wanted to watch for evidence of where the plane was. He could even turn partly forward to look for the lights of Portland/Vancouver without any discomfort from wind in his face. Note that, in the later flight test, the men reported that there was no "wind drag" when they were down at the end of the stairs. That is, they were not being blown upon.

There is no reason Dan should feel like he must jump right away, or that he can go to the end of the stairs only when he is totally set to jump.

Eventually Dan jumps. He doesn't experience a smack as bad as he would have gotten by dropping through a chute at the back of a 727. The airstair has been diverting flow out away from the fuselage. This is different than it would be if someone jumped by diving through an open hole. When Dan comes off the end of the stair, it is pushed up toward the bottom of the fuselage and a pocket of air follows it for a short time rather than continuing to rush aft to smack Dan. There may well have been some other significant factors. But the jump is not the same as just any jump from a jet or just any jump from a 727, precisely because the jump is from off the end of the airstair.

When the stair pops up, from Dan jumping off the end, it compresses air between the stair and the stairwell/cabin. The pressure in the whole cabin could have gone up about 1 percent. Doesn't sound like much, but it's more than enough to make the cabin climb rate guage react violently because the guage is estremely sensitive to pressure changes that occur over short periods of time.

This pressure pulse is the "pressure bump" felt by the flight crew but not reported via the radio circuit being monitored by the teletype logger. The same pressure pulse (with ear popping) as noted in the later flight test. It was not caused by the stairs shutting against its frame.

Copilot Rataczak was later quoted as saying that the AFT AIRSTAIR (ajar) light on the flight engineer's annunciator panel went out momentarily, so the stair apparently did come at least very close to fully closing. But it would not latch because the emergency deployment of the stairs had broken away the uplock rollers and damaged the latch for each roller. If the light went out from the stair fully closing, the control handle must have been in the UP detent. The handle being out of the UP detent causes the light to stay on regardless of whether or not the stair is up.

Note that normal instruction for emergency extension starts off by saying to put the normal control handle to DOWN or to try first to drop the stairs in the normal way and to leave the handle at DOWN if that doesn't work. These things were put in the instructions to avoid damaging the latches, which had not been thought of by whoever produced the Transport Canada instructions (which don't include the precaution and say there will be great damage).

When the stairs settle back down, they are pushing up on the plane with the same force as before Dan went out onto the stairs. This is less than when Dan was still on the stairs. The force up has reduced because of this, but the force down has reduced because of Dan being gone. It is possible that the jump caused the tail end of the plane to drop back down some, by eliminating the lift caused by the stair being pushed down into the airstream, rather than pitching up more because of the loss of Dan's weight. This would be the end of "a curtsy."

Note that the later flight test did not confirm the aft end of the plane pitching up when the test load dropped (as some have thought they heard). It confirmed that the STAIRS popped up then, NOT the plane tail.

The flight data recorder should have shown altitude/pressure oscillation, later a gradual pitch change (tail up) as Dan proceeded down the stairs, then the positive pressure bump/pop possibly followed immediately by a pitch change of either polarity. (Remember this when you find the FDR data. To determine this last pitch change, we would need lift and drag info for the lower surface of the airstair under restriction that the airstream would not flow over the upper, forward edge of the surface.

The oscillation could have been preceded by a negative pressure bump from the stairs being blown out by the emergency system. We don't have any data from which to determine or even estimate how vigorously the stairs might have opened when the emergency extension system was used.

[377 21]

Interesting post Hominid, especially this portion:

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If the light went out from the stair fully closing, the control handle must have been in the UP detent. The handle being out of the UP detent causes the light to stay on regardless of whether or not the stair is up.

I think you are right about the stairs shielding the airblast. I've watched raft jumps where jumpers hold an inflatable raft during freefall with one or two jumpers in the raft. I watched a girl with no helmet riding in the raft. Her hair was hanging DOWN as the raft was in freefall!

BTW you are sure right about rate pressure instruments being sensitive. I have a cabin rate of climb gauge and can make it jump by slamming the door in an ordinary room with the windows closed.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[hangdiver 1]

Your info on Braden is great...my post about trucker tells got Snow thinking and that's dangerous...I'm waiting for an okay to post his thoughts on the tells he has come up with that a trucker might give...very thought provoking...did Braden ever sport jump in northern California...Calistoga...to be precise...???

No one...and I mean no one(ask 377)would be as calm as Cooper doing their first jet jump without the experience of someone like Braden...no one...!!!

My dad was 503rd in WW II...first army airborne unit...I'll repost the photos I have of his stuff I have.

ETA: that shin strap is a reproduction...I couldn't find the original...but I remember seeing it as a kid...we still have a bunch of stuff to go through so I still might find the original one someday.

hangdiver

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[Farflung 0]

That’s quite the tale about the Crisis in the Congo. Imagine if those walls at 301 Broadway, San Francisco could talk! If only someone could investigate that place!! Or if that C-118 which hauled 87 troops could be located, what a ‘piece of history’ that would be.

Ya know Custer was the last man standing at Little Bighorn and Davy Crockett was dispatching General Santa Anna’s troops with precise swings from ‘Old Betsy’ until he was ruthlessly attacked from behind by a group of lowly cowards? All true, it is all in books and stuff. Just read past all the other stuff and you will get to the good part (what you already want to believe).

Is it coincidence that Custer and Santa Anna died in the same year and week? Yes, of course it is, stop being stupid.

[377 21]

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very thought provoking...did Braden ever sport jump in northern California...Calistoga...to be precise...???

I remember the Calistoga DZ. I was about 11 when I saw my first ever skydiving there. I was HOOKED, I mean kid-insane wild crazy wannabe one of those guys hooked. My young heart and mind were racing, I just couldn't believe how cool it was. I still feel that way today.

My folks and my three younger brothers got bored watching but I BEGGED them to stay. I hung out with the heroic jumpers and they were really nice to me. They tolerated endless excited whuffo-kid questions and even let me help them pack their canopies.

I had to wait 7 long years until I turned 18 and then jumped immediately. I fantasized about it every day during the 7 year wait. Sadly, when I was ready to jump unsupervised, Calistoga had closed. Coming up on my 44th year jumping and it all started at Calistoga.

Calistoga was a cool DZ, loocted right on the edge of town. Lots of sailplanes too. Rumor has it that Calistoga was named by a drunk guy giving a speech opening up a hot springs there back in the day. He was trying to say it was the Saratoga (NY place then known for spas and springs) of California. It came out Calistoga.

What makes you think Braden may have jumped there? Mike Steel, later a Golden Knight jumped there in the mid 60s. He later went in at Fremont CA on a pirate one instructor AFF jump that went bad. He saved his student but got so low that when he pulled his main (yeah, I know, he should've gone for the reserve) it was just getting line stretch as he impacted,

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 21]

From Snow, speaking about Gray's book passage that says Cooper had benzedrine pills in his pocket.

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This would be a good question to grill Gray on.
if you go to Ariel, grill him on it..where he got the info. Did he get it from Tosaw's book?
I remember when we discussed it before, we wrote it off as "writer's license"

but then Gray repeats it.

So WTF?

i had even posted a benzedrine ad from back then.

ckret was there during the benzedrine questions.

HEY, wait a second. I searched and couldn't find it. Turns out that we didn't know what bills ..just pills to keep them
awake according to Tosaw. look at our speculation here
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3262374;search_string=pills;guest=81659218#3262374


This is a good question to post about. Ckret was there, but I don't think he responded to the issue?

Here's the reference in Gray's book.
http://books.google.com/books?lr=&id=SAcpc5PyuFcC&q=benzedrine#v=onepage&q=benzedrine&f=false

Gray is quoting transcripts all thru that section. He doesn't list the benzedrine as a quote. It's a statement. Almost
like he got it from a transcript or something that we've not seen????

can post all this.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

Great we have Snow channeling thru 377. Keep it up and maybe Quade will let him back on a trial basis.

I think part of why he is gone was the trails of computer searchs that were posted. A lot of it meant things to me that NO one else would latch on to...some of it I replied to but NOT all. I still do NOT think Snow introducing Snow Line was just a quirk. Because I had viewed that site before because it was the same guys & truck in the book that Duane told me he used to know and stated a picture of him was in the book but someone had tore it out.

Even then I thought one of these guys looked like a very young Weber and the article gave 2 names for the guy - neither of which has ever checked out.


Just got an email from Duane's old friend in Atlanta. I sent him a copy of a post JT made and it made the friend MAD as Hell. He may just contact someone in WA in regards to this - like the agent of record or his supervisor.

This is a condensed version of what I sent to the Altanta friend:

Excerpt from his posts in the DZ:
Oct 4, 2011, 11:02 AM
Re: [skyjack71]

Jo You sacrificed your health to build a story about deceased husband that could not defend his self and continued to add and change those storys with false statements about seeing where the money was burried by duane.

Or maybe this scam on the Cooper case you tried to pull off and never could. You still can't. Unless by some freak incident you can pass a polygraph test which you would never be able to do. (Jo states: I offered to do a test the first yr).

There are to many people aware of your decietfull ways.Your false claims and scams. Oh seriously do you have pictures of your self from the 60/70s and you past aliasses. I think Im on to something that involves your composite and your profile.(Jo asks - what the hell is he referring to).

One last thing you honestly didn't believe anyone could actually believe your story that you were married to Duane for all those years and knew nothing about his past. Especially after reading some of your posts on this and other forums did you. Even Duanes best friend told me you knew all about his past , you know the Insurance salesman friend of his that lives in Geogia, the one you tried to convence to go a long with your story in the beginning in his statement he claims you knew all about Duanes past and even knew Duanes health would have prevented him from pulling off such a crime, Jo Mafia connections Cheese cake reciepes notes from Tina, Plane TICKETS you couldn't produce.

(Jo States: THIS part made the friend mad as hell - if he could get thru to the the agent of record - JT is history and the friend has offered to take a lie detector test regarding JT's interview with him and the friend had the impression JT was FBI).


P.S. I have known this friend of Duane's since shortly after I met Duane. He is very aware that I did NOT know about Duane's past and he was the first one I called as I found these things out about Duane's past. The friend met Duane only AFTER the skyjacking - not before.

It would be much later in life that Duane's capabilities from the disease would impair his functions. Football players have been diagnosed with PKS and still played football. JT does NOT understand the nature of PKS. A diagnosis - does NOT make one encapable of doing what they did before...PKD is a progressive disease and most times takes many many yrs to progress to any point of disability or requiring treatment. Duane did NOT require dialysis until 20 yrs later. All he did was take blood pressure medication from 1970 until 1990 - only in 1990 did he require a machine to assist his kidney functions.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Tomorrow I wil talk about something I do not believe I have revealed to the thread.

Part of the story I never told in its entirety. This involves an Antique Store and a woman in St. Helens, OR. I was unable to put it together until I went back to WA by myself with myself behind the wheel of a car. Now one yr later more of the pieces come together - with recently acquired information. I hope to be able to confirm this information before I post.

I touched on this after I got back from WA - at least I think I did, but I am not going back thur the posts to find out.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Would Cooper have walked down the stairs or would he have backed himself down the stair?

I ask this only because when Duane had his dream (1978) about leaving his prints on the Aft Stairs - he was reached up with his hand as though he was trying to grasp something when he cried out - "I left my prints on the Aft Stair" "I 'mmmm Going to Die" then it is Blood curdling scream I felt sure could have been heard in the next apartment if we had not had a corner apartment.

His hand extending upward makes me think maybe he went down the stairway facing the steps. I say this only because of the extend hand in the nightmare.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Orange1 0]

Jo, please, leave jerry's posts alone so he can do the same with you.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[ClassClown 0]

Jo vs Jerry...............getting' Hot n Nasty in here...............please Jo don't call the FBI on me................or a friend who'll call the the FBI.................or a friend of a friend who was the friend of your old man's................LOL

[hangdiver 1]

Quote

What makes you think Braden may have jumped there? Mike Steel, later a Golden Knight jumped there in the mid 60s. He later went in at Fremont CA on a pirate one instructor AFF jump that went bad. He saved his student but got so low that when he pulled his main (yeah, I know, he should've gone for the reserve) it was just getting line stretch as he impacted,

377

I don't know if he did or not...my question was "did he?" because I know someone I could track down that used to jump there...

if Braden spent time in the bay area he surely new about Calistoga...

I don't even know if the time frame would be correct...

I'm just trying to find that one piece of the puzzle that opens up the whole picture.

hangdiver

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[hangdiver 1]

From a request by Snow...

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I wonder if Braden wore ankle boots like Tina says.

Can you post and ask buckshot31 who met Braden in '74 or so, what he was wearing? Also what he wore for shoes in Germany when they were doing the skydiving competitions...what Braden wore casually and what he wore while jumping.

All we need to find is that single piece of evidence that connects all the dots...I'm confident we will...sooner or later...

hangdiver

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[BobKnoss 0]

***
All we need to find is that single piece of evidence that connects all the dots...I'm confident we will...sooner or later...
hangdiver