Hooknswoop 19 #1 April 13, 2002 One instructor correcting another instructor in front of a student is un-professional. If an instructor observes another instructor teaching a new skill to a student and is teaching it in-correctly, correcting the instructor in front of the student, even if the instructor was teaching incorrectly, will undermine the students confidence in their instructor. Students, wether they realize it or not, rely upon the instructors confidence to help keep their stress level under control. If the student watches their instructor get corrected, they will wonder what else they have been taught that is wrong and if their instructor is capable of teaching. One instructor dis-agreeing with another instructor in front of a student will leave the student wondering “they dis-agree. Only one of them can be correct. Therefore one of them is wrong. Which one? Maybe both.”I would never correct an instructor in front of their student. I am curious if this is the trend in skydiving instructors. Thoughts and opinions, and note if you are an instructor, if you would.Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #2 April 13, 2002 QuoteStudents, wether they realize it or not, rely upon the instructors confidence to help keep their stress level under control. Aint that the truth. Something else I _wish_ instructors would do is stay with the student from the time they're geared up until the debrief is finished. Too many times I've seen instructors watch students land (well and badly) and just trot off back into the hanger/packing area without them. Maybe it's just me, but this has always bothered me. I do understand that sometimes they need to get right on the next load, but when they don't....-Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #3 April 13, 2002 Hook:i'm glad you posted this, it's exactly what i was trying to say today. i remember when i was going through the AFP program at SDSL you guys wouldn't even let experienced sky divers give advice to your students. I knew there was a strategy for it. even when i got off of student status, i'd have a TL-1 student come up to me and ask questions, i believe i responded one time, after a well deserved ass eating, i referred all further questions to the man in charge of the dive, so that's kinda where i picked that up. and i think your theory holds water, i know i'd be hotter than a $2.00 pistol on a saturday night if somebody was interfearing with my student. and the coaching etiqutte was eloquently put.Richard Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallinWoman 1 #4 April 13, 2002 I would like to add my comments on a sightly different situation:When I cutaway (jump 82) my former JM totally went off on my decision IN FRONT OF A STUDENT. Bottom line: I landed fine, all is good. I would hate to think that a student might hesitate to cutaway even for a instant because one of my JMs wet off on MY choice.If you have something to say, do so privatelyAnne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #5 April 13, 2002 See.. at our DZ from the moment the student graduates and its announced on the PA the experienced jumpers look out for them. We have a tradition of Sunday dinner that we take students on. Durning dinner we talk about any thing that happened that weekend that needs looked at, fatilities, jump debriefs and anything else that pops to mind. We invite the low time jumpers to ask questions of everyone that is at the dinner to get a feel for different responces because some of the JM's are only in it for the money and could care less about the jumpers once they graduate.In recent weeks we've covered new canopies, pros and cons of velcro, exit order and other things that the JM's don't cover normallyRecently we've been taking current students out to dinner and since the experience pool ranges from me on the low end to several 1000+ jump jumpers we give general advice in a more relaxed environment then before or after a jump.Its all the advantages of a campfire chat with everyone sober...In terms of JM's talking to other instructors... I wish someone had talked to one of mine about when i was on student status. He weighted like 275+ and i weighed about 145 at the time. I was floaty and he did a side harness hold on me. Well... we started spinning due to me floating and him draging me down. I was told I failed the level since I could'nt stop the turning. After graduation I showed the video from the JM's POV to some other people... they all went balistic that i failed since I did everything right, but the JM was wrong. Had another JM been reviewing the jump video or even had poped in to look... it would have saved me a lot of money and I almost quit after this jump since I was so scared of jumping and spinning out of control like we did. That jump totally blew me confidence and it took me 7 jumps to get it back."Hey.. Its my camera, and my remote... I'll rewind if I want to!" ~ Goat #2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #6 April 13, 2002 Hook, good post. That is a basic leadership value, you do not undermine the authority of a subordinate leader or a peer infront of subordinants.Personally, since JMs/TM-Is/DZO/etc are "leaders" on the DZ, I think they should put some time into reading and studying different leadership and management styles (no the are not the same thing!) to get a good feel of the different principles and philosophies in those subjects. That could help out a lot, atleast thats what I think.Bow down to liveYour LifeHead down, hide that smileHead high got to smile Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #7 April 13, 2002 Sounds like some of your military training coming out AggieDave. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #8 April 13, 2002 This is related to the concept of leading by example. Losing your cool and yelling at anyone on the DZ ruins the vibe.Ask yourself if you are setting an example that you want your students to follow. Do you want them to treat you this way 2 years down the road? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lowpull 0 #9 April 15, 2002 It is TOTALLY un professional to correct another I while they are working with a student. It is very easy to politely interrupt, discuss your issue with the instructor in private and move on. It makes the student nervous, therefore making it harder to learn. Let's remember, the student is above all else, a paying customer so we owe them the safest, most relaxed, professional learning environment possible.In response to the question of ratings, AFF/I Tandem I/E Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #10 April 15, 2002 >I wish someone had talked to one of mine about when i was on student status. Agreed, but such conversations should take place out of earshot of other students. It can be a pain in the butt (i.e. you have to take the JM, pull him aside into a room, then the original JM has to go and fix the problem) but is pretty important.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 3 #11 April 15, 2002 Some people, regardless of ratings held, just should not be allowed to interface with students. Loose cannons don't last long around here. ChuckMy webpage HERE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nacmacfeegle 0 #12 April 15, 2002 Agreed on two instructors correcting each other in front of students, or anyone else for that matter........Its not only rude, but dangerous as discussed above, bad form guys.....On the subject of students asking q's of 'experienced' jumpers, I try and avoid the question by immediately answering "you should check with your instructor".In this age of litigation I do not want a student biffing and blaming me. Selfish, of course it is, but I don't keep up with accepted student procedures and practices, and as these vary from DZ to DZ, I really don't want to be misguiding anybody.CyaD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites axe96bam 0 #13 April 15, 2002 Hook,I agree with you 100%. We, above all, should be professionals. I do not mind taking advice from from a more experienced instructor, but as long as it is not in front of students. I think that we have that working very well at our DZ. I have not seen disagreements between 2 JMs or Is in front of students. My biggest problem is that there are some 50 to 100 jump wonders walking around who think they know it all and go out giving advice to students on the ground or to recent graduates. My cry out is for all of you JMs, Is, and experienced jumpers to please watch out for such "know it all" low timers and do not let them give poor, bad, or wrong advice. Direct the students and new graduates to their JMs or to experienced and knowledgeable jumpers.Alex Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GrumpySmurf 0 #14 April 15, 2002 Aye, and paying for the reserve repack (think of all the beer money spent) should be punishment enough Now if you chopped away after 80+ jumps because the slider's flapping was scaring you, then MAYBE... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gale 0 #15 April 15, 2002 I totally agree. When I did my first jump (an IAD) and the first girl out of the plane didn't land on the field, neither did the second guy, then there was me (I did land on the field, by the way) and then the girl after me didn't either. We were all first jump students. We don't have radios here so we use the arrow. The guy doing ground control then wouldn't let the fifth jumper jump. And then he preceeded to yell at all of us. He screemed at the guys face "as just where did you think you were going, what the f*ck were you thinking". Etc. He was screaming at the them while doing their ground control. Obviously students landing off field is bad but we were all trying and fear is a large part of the equation. Either way, it's not like any of them meant to do it and screaming obsenities at them isn't going to help. Plus, he wouldn't talk to us on the ride back to the hanger and so he wouldn't answer questions regarding ground control. After one girl asked a question he replied "you're a university student, you figure it out." Not a good way to invite questions and help with improvement. It almost ruined the whole experience. He made me feel really scared of going out to the drop zone and seeing him there, plus what other instructors might be like.Since then, I've seen him quite a few time at the DZ and he's never been like that again, I guess he's tempermental. But I think if you can't get more control then that over your emotions dealing with students probably isn't the place for you to be. Student mess up. They're in a high anxiety situation, it's only natural. (Lord knows I mess up sometimes.) In my lowley opinion, it's the instructors juob to help you improve, not to beat you up for making a mistake. (This obviously does not apply to anyone who is intentially doing dangerous things, that might warrent a stronger responce.)Life's not worth living if you can't feel alive Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Beachbum 0 #16 April 15, 2002 I totally agree, but can see one scenario where it might be tolerable ... if said instructor/student pair are either boarding, or on the plane and something is being told to the student that could get him into real trouble ... in that case, I would think you might want to speak up (but at least phrase it gently ... like ... "maybe it would be better to ... etc." As for talking with lowtimers/students ... if asked, I may tell them my opinion ... but always prefacing it with the fact that I'm pretty lowtime too, and that they should do as ya'll suggest, and check with a JM or instructor As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChromeBoy 0 #17 April 15, 2002 Gale if somone treated me like that or anywhere close to that I would remind them that I am the paying customer and I am one of the reasons why they have a job. And that they will not talk to me that way and if they don't like it I would request another instructor or go to a different dropzone. This is not what the sport is about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rendezvous 0 #18 April 15, 2002 I agree with you, screaming instructors are not a help.They only add to the problem. A good instructor is not suppose to loose his cool no matter what. It's that calm and sturdiness in his personality that the students rely upon and learn to trust. When I was doing my AFF it was my belief in my instructor being able to keep a cool head if all went wrong that gave me the confidence to trust my life with him and step out of a plane. If an instructor cannot generate that kind of a trust is his students, in my opinion he's not qualified no matter how many ratings he may hold. Not every good skydiver can be an instructor but every good instructor has to be a good skydiver. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Sebazz1 2 #19 April 15, 2002 I believe that a skyding instructor should be just as professional as any other type of professional out there. Keep issues between JM's and jumpers behind doors. It's not just JM's though it's also DZO's. I have been present when a DZO has gone off on a JM in front of all the students. I personally thought that that was BS.So pretty much an outstanding yes to all who have posted. Though if a student does hit one single van in the middle of a 200 acre field I believe a little jabbing is acceptableJust a littleSEBAZZ....... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GrumpySmurf 0 #20 April 15, 2002 It's even funnier to see them hit the wind sock in the middle of a 200 acre field Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Sebazz1 2 #21 April 15, 2002 Object fixation................LMAO.....SEBAZZ....... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #22 April 15, 2002 Gale,Sounds to me like your instructor was blaming you guys for his own lousy spot. Don't let one jerk ruin a truly wonderful sport for you. Ask for a different instructor. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gale 0 #23 April 15, 2002 Yup. Now that I know the instructor out there I know who to pick. Besides, there were lots of people at the hanger when we got back who understood our sides of things. One of the other jumpers told me not to give up on a wonderful sport - and I didn't! Now I don't think I would stop learning for anything. It just sucks that a first experience like that could put people off of this sport. Actually, I would like to become an instructor (in the distant future) so that I can help other newbies have a good time!GaleLife's not worth living if you can't feel alive Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites slotperfect 7 #24 April 20, 2002 ***I would hate to think that a student might hesitate to cutaway even for a instant because one of my JMs wet off on MY choice.***Right as you can be, FW! I witnessed a very low, but successful cutaway years ago at my home DZ. The jumper was in a 4-way that broke off really low (like 2000FT). Consequently, he pulled really low. He had a brake line malfunction (another story in itself), which caused a spinning mal. He attempted to control it unsuccessfully, and cutaway so low it made me cringe. His round reserve opened in time for him to quickly turn it into the wind and do a stand-up landing on the runway. Myself, and another jumper in a position of authority on the DZ, took him aside and talked about his choices one-by-one. We did NOT blast him for being an irresponsible idiot. Both of us recognized the bottom line - he walked away after saving his own life. After our talk, he clearly understood what had contributed to the potentially disastroud incident, learned from it, and was back out again next weekend - a much safer and wiser jumper because of it.Respectfully,SP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. 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riggerrob 558 #8 April 13, 2002 This is related to the concept of leading by example. Losing your cool and yelling at anyone on the DZ ruins the vibe.Ask yourself if you are setting an example that you want your students to follow. Do you want them to treat you this way 2 years down the road? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lowpull 0 #9 April 15, 2002 It is TOTALLY un professional to correct another I while they are working with a student. It is very easy to politely interrupt, discuss your issue with the instructor in private and move on. It makes the student nervous, therefore making it harder to learn. Let's remember, the student is above all else, a paying customer so we owe them the safest, most relaxed, professional learning environment possible.In response to the question of ratings, AFF/I Tandem I/E Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #10 April 15, 2002 >I wish someone had talked to one of mine about when i was on student status. Agreed, but such conversations should take place out of earshot of other students. It can be a pain in the butt (i.e. you have to take the JM, pull him aside into a room, then the original JM has to go and fix the problem) but is pretty important.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #11 April 15, 2002 Some people, regardless of ratings held, just should not be allowed to interface with students. Loose cannons don't last long around here. ChuckMy webpage HERE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #12 April 15, 2002 Agreed on two instructors correcting each other in front of students, or anyone else for that matter........Its not only rude, but dangerous as discussed above, bad form guys.....On the subject of students asking q's of 'experienced' jumpers, I try and avoid the question by immediately answering "you should check with your instructor".In this age of litigation I do not want a student biffing and blaming me. Selfish, of course it is, but I don't keep up with accepted student procedures and practices, and as these vary from DZ to DZ, I really don't want to be misguiding anybody.CyaD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
axe96bam 0 #13 April 15, 2002 Hook,I agree with you 100%. We, above all, should be professionals. I do not mind taking advice from from a more experienced instructor, but as long as it is not in front of students. I think that we have that working very well at our DZ. I have not seen disagreements between 2 JMs or Is in front of students. My biggest problem is that there are some 50 to 100 jump wonders walking around who think they know it all and go out giving advice to students on the ground or to recent graduates. My cry out is for all of you JMs, Is, and experienced jumpers to please watch out for such "know it all" low timers and do not let them give poor, bad, or wrong advice. Direct the students and new graduates to their JMs or to experienced and knowledgeable jumpers.Alex Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpySmurf 0 #14 April 15, 2002 Aye, and paying for the reserve repack (think of all the beer money spent) should be punishment enough Now if you chopped away after 80+ jumps because the slider's flapping was scaring you, then MAYBE... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gale 0 #15 April 15, 2002 I totally agree. When I did my first jump (an IAD) and the first girl out of the plane didn't land on the field, neither did the second guy, then there was me (I did land on the field, by the way) and then the girl after me didn't either. We were all first jump students. We don't have radios here so we use the arrow. The guy doing ground control then wouldn't let the fifth jumper jump. And then he preceeded to yell at all of us. He screemed at the guys face "as just where did you think you were going, what the f*ck were you thinking". Etc. He was screaming at the them while doing their ground control. Obviously students landing off field is bad but we were all trying and fear is a large part of the equation. Either way, it's not like any of them meant to do it and screaming obsenities at them isn't going to help. Plus, he wouldn't talk to us on the ride back to the hanger and so he wouldn't answer questions regarding ground control. After one girl asked a question he replied "you're a university student, you figure it out." Not a good way to invite questions and help with improvement. It almost ruined the whole experience. He made me feel really scared of going out to the drop zone and seeing him there, plus what other instructors might be like.Since then, I've seen him quite a few time at the DZ and he's never been like that again, I guess he's tempermental. But I think if you can't get more control then that over your emotions dealing with students probably isn't the place for you to be. Student mess up. They're in a high anxiety situation, it's only natural. (Lord knows I mess up sometimes.) In my lowley opinion, it's the instructors juob to help you improve, not to beat you up for making a mistake. (This obviously does not apply to anyone who is intentially doing dangerous things, that might warrent a stronger responce.)Life's not worth living if you can't feel alive Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beachbum 0 #16 April 15, 2002 I totally agree, but can see one scenario where it might be tolerable ... if said instructor/student pair are either boarding, or on the plane and something is being told to the student that could get him into real trouble ... in that case, I would think you might want to speak up (but at least phrase it gently ... like ... "maybe it would be better to ... etc." As for talking with lowtimers/students ... if asked, I may tell them my opinion ... but always prefacing it with the fact that I'm pretty lowtime too, and that they should do as ya'll suggest, and check with a JM or instructor As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChromeBoy 0 #17 April 15, 2002 Gale if somone treated me like that or anywhere close to that I would remind them that I am the paying customer and I am one of the reasons why they have a job. And that they will not talk to me that way and if they don't like it I would request another instructor or go to a different dropzone. This is not what the sport is about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rendezvous 0 #18 April 15, 2002 I agree with you, screaming instructors are not a help.They only add to the problem. A good instructor is not suppose to loose his cool no matter what. It's that calm and sturdiness in his personality that the students rely upon and learn to trust. When I was doing my AFF it was my belief in my instructor being able to keep a cool head if all went wrong that gave me the confidence to trust my life with him and step out of a plane. If an instructor cannot generate that kind of a trust is his students, in my opinion he's not qualified no matter how many ratings he may hold. Not every good skydiver can be an instructor but every good instructor has to be a good skydiver. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sebazz1 2 #19 April 15, 2002 I believe that a skyding instructor should be just as professional as any other type of professional out there. Keep issues between JM's and jumpers behind doors. It's not just JM's though it's also DZO's. I have been present when a DZO has gone off on a JM in front of all the students. I personally thought that that was BS.So pretty much an outstanding yes to all who have posted. Though if a student does hit one single van in the middle of a 200 acre field I believe a little jabbing is acceptableJust a littleSEBAZZ....... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpySmurf 0 #20 April 15, 2002 It's even funnier to see them hit the wind sock in the middle of a 200 acre field Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sebazz1 2 #21 April 15, 2002 Object fixation................LMAO.....SEBAZZ....... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #22 April 15, 2002 Gale,Sounds to me like your instructor was blaming you guys for his own lousy spot. Don't let one jerk ruin a truly wonderful sport for you. Ask for a different instructor. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gale 0 #23 April 15, 2002 Yup. Now that I know the instructor out there I know who to pick. Besides, there were lots of people at the hanger when we got back who understood our sides of things. One of the other jumpers told me not to give up on a wonderful sport - and I didn't! Now I don't think I would stop learning for anything. It just sucks that a first experience like that could put people off of this sport. Actually, I would like to become an instructor (in the distant future) so that I can help other newbies have a good time!GaleLife's not worth living if you can't feel alive Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #24 April 20, 2002 ***I would hate to think that a student might hesitate to cutaway even for a instant because one of my JMs wet off on MY choice.***Right as you can be, FW! I witnessed a very low, but successful cutaway years ago at my home DZ. The jumper was in a 4-way that broke off really low (like 2000FT). Consequently, he pulled really low. He had a brake line malfunction (another story in itself), which caused a spinning mal. He attempted to control it unsuccessfully, and cutaway so low it made me cringe. His round reserve opened in time for him to quickly turn it into the wind and do a stand-up landing on the runway. Myself, and another jumper in a position of authority on the DZ, took him aside and talked about his choices one-by-one. We did NOT blast him for being an irresponsible idiot. Both of us recognized the bottom line - he walked away after saving his own life. After our talk, he clearly understood what had contributed to the potentially disastroud incident, learned from it, and was back out again next weekend - a much safer and wiser jumper because of it.Respectfully,SP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
