kopelen 0 #1 August 9, 2002 Question for all the instructors out there. If you got a student that had more than 200 hours in the tunnel doing AFF drills, RW, and Freeflying how would you feel about: 1. If they flew their body better than you. 2. Told you as an instructor that your doing it wrong Also do you think that people pre-student ie 18 and younger get the skills in the tunnel should start right off at RW big ways and freeflying big ways. Just looking for some instructor input. Also provide feedback on the risk you are willing to take for wind tunnel rats that have no tracking and canopy skills thanks and blue skies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #2 August 9, 2002 troll? ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #3 August 9, 2002 Unrealistic. Do the math. A 200 hour Skydiver would be a skygod. Your student would theoretically have similar air time. If you can fly, you can fly. But if you can turn 30+ points in the tunnel (in 35") but not take out an exit in the real thing, you will not be skydiving with many people. A fucked up exit will cost you time/money. Canopy control is another issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #4 August 9, 2002 I'm no instructor, but I jump with newbies to give back what veterans gave to me early on. It'd be pretty funny for that student to tell you off with all that grass stuck in his teeth and those grass stains on his ass and knees. What kind of a track could he have if he's just been turning in a vertical sewer pipe? What kind of a freeflyer can you become when you can't get above the speed of the tunnel? As combat veterans will say: Shootin paper ain't shootin people. There's gotta be a similar analogy for tunnel rats and skydivers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJohnson 0 #5 August 9, 2002 Well, I had this same train of thought going, just on a different angle, so I'm glad you brought it up. I think eventually that wind tunnels are going to make a huge part of skydiving obsolete.......VIDEO!!!! We as skydivers are going to stop videoing any jump that is not a big way, or something that cannot be done in a tunnel. Why??? Cause we are not going to want evidence that a zero jump tunnel rat can out-fly us. We will be the adrenaline junkies that risk death to do what they do in tunnels...without the danger. In fact, I'd go further to say that it won't take too long before competitions are held in the tunnels. And that my friends will lead to the thing that our sport lacks: spectators. Which will lead to media coverage and normal sponsors. Will there always be skydivers??? Probably. But the wind tunnels are going to be easily accessible to the average person, no age limits, easy media coverage and about the same danger level as figure skating. What does that leaves us???: big ways, incredible scenery that cannot be duplicated in a tunnel, and canopy skills. I could be wrong here, but I'm thinking that the tunnels are a real wave of the future. Hell, I had a buddy of mine that did a lot of team 4 way. After a few tunnel camps his comment to me was that if 4 way was a bit easier in the tunnel (larger diameter) he'd quit jumping. That's just my opinion, I could be wrong JJJJ "Call me Darth Balls" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #6 August 9, 2002 Not really, Thomas Hughes -- who is on Sebastian XL right now and just did a 20pt average had 75 jumps when he won gold at the US nationals 2 years ago. Learnign to fly in teh tunnel gives you a feeling for the air, they can do anything with that air, Some of the folks at teh tunnel can track better on their knees than some can in a mad track.... canopy skills, well that's a different story. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kopelen 0 #7 August 10, 2002 It is realistic figure this. A 14 year old kid in his freshman year of highschool decides well I am not old enough to skydive so i will go to the tunnel and practice till i am old enough to ie 18 most dzs. well guess what in 4 years going to the tunnel say 1 hr a week, that's 208 hrs in the tunnel. guess what he has more simulated freefall than most instructors, so what i am getting at is realistic you just misunderstand what i was asking. so now that you understand please respond back thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ltdiver 3 #8 August 10, 2002 Quote A 14 year old kid in his freshman year of highschool well guess what in 4 years going to the tunnel say 1 hr a week, that's 208 hrs in the tunnel. Wow! Don't know many 14 year olds that have THAT kind of money in their back pocket! ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #9 August 10, 2002 QuoteIt is realistic figure this. A 14 year old kid in his freshman year of highschool decides well I am not old enough to skydive so i will go to the tunnel and practice till i am old enough to ie 18 most dzs. well guess what in 4 years going to the tunnel say 1 hr a week, that's 208 hrs in the tunnel. guess what he has more simulated freefall than most instructors, so what i am getting at is realistic you just misunderstand what i was asking. so now that you understand please respond back thanks. See, now you are talking about a 14 year old. The point is moot. I have less than an hour in the tunnel and believe it is a great tool. It's just not skydiving. I like the real thing and I'll leave it at that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites slotperfect 7 #10 August 10, 2002 It would be like teaching someone to fly who has 200 hours in an airplane doing complex aerobatics, but has never taken off or landed. They still have a lot to learn to be complete as an AFF student. As far as telling me I'm doing it wrong . . . that's a personality thing. I would handle that by establishing clear parameters in the Instructor-Student relationship. I would not want to piss him off about it, because after the AFF is over, I just might learn something from him as well! Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumpy 0 #11 August 10, 2002 QuoteWill there always be skydivers??? Probably. I hope so! I've never even been in a tunnel and it looks like a bit of fun for an afternoon i guess but i think i'd still rather the real deal. Most people don't do it to 'turn points' its for the rush and i can't see me getting an enormous rush from a tunnel. (hmm does anyone even know of any tunnels in Australia?) hmm i just had another thought as well...this persons had 200 hours in the tunnel but WITHOUT a rig so the body possition etc would be different...not really different i guess but your movement would be more constricted. It would probably only feel different for a while granted and would most likely be easily overcum just another thought i had. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Watcher 0 #12 August 11, 2002 The tunnel is a rush, and one that can be expirenced for longer than the normal 75 seconds of freefall. Its a rush, and if i was living in orlando i would be in the tunnel every single week. No packing . Incredible fun, levels become a bigger issue. And for some of us, getting faster and faster at turning points is the biggest rush in the world. If it was not for my Velocity 103, and the challenge of exits, i would perfer to do everything in the tunnel. Jonathan GTInviscidJonathan Bartlett D-24876 AFF-I Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites drenaline 0 #13 August 12, 2002 dude what about the rush you get everytime you are at the door of a plane, get hit by the prop wash, looking at the ground coming closer, reach the hackey knowing that you are about to save your life and pull, who is your greatest hero? yourself HISPA 21 www.panamafreefall.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kingbunky 3 #14 August 12, 2002 check out this thread, specifically the reply from SkymonkeyONE , 4th one down. but then again, you started that thread as well so maybe you've already seen it."Hang on a sec, the young'uns are throwin' beer cans at a golf cart." MB4252 TDS699 killing threads since 2001 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #15 August 12, 2002 >If you got a student that had more than 200 hours in the tunnel > doing AFF drills, RW, and Freeflying how would you feel about: >1. If they flew their body better than you. Plenty of my students fly better than me now; I've had naturals in AFF that had better air skills at 5 jumps than I had at 50. When I organize I often get people with better skills in some areas (tracking, flying quiet on big ways) than I do. It's just the way of the world. >2. Told you as an instructor that your doing it wrong. I would smile and nod and continue with what I was doing. There's a huge difference between flying in a tunnel and skydiving. If they stick with the sport they will eventually understand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hobbes4star 0 #16 August 12, 2002 that's funny isn't it. of course do you have a 14 yr old. i have a 14yr old and a 16 yr old. i don't know if you have been to a high school recently but i see a ton of teenage kids with designer clothing, cell phones and for the kids that can drive i see some 20,000+ priced vehicles that are in the parking lot. I am not saying that the kids are paying for these but it is the parents. and if the parents are willing to shell out $100 for a shirt than it would stand to reason that they would shell out $100 for some tunnel time.if fun were easy it wouldn't be worth having, right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nigel99 144 #17 August 13, 2002 Well a summary of my thoughts. I think it would be nice if tunnel flying became quite big, I enjoy flying my body but can't because of family commitments. I am not sure it has that much spectator apeal - although you do lose the sights of people hooking in etc. 2nd it is much cheaper than jumping and a nice idea to learn stability in a less intense environment than freefall. Last point I believe that it is naive to believe that tunnel-time = skydiving skill. A tunnel is safe - skydiving is not. I doubt that the tunnel raises the level of adrenalin/freaked out feeling that comes in skydiving and a cocky attitude by a virtual whuffo could kill them. If a paraglider pilot capable of CRW/swooping? or a snowboarder of skysurfing? Thats all - BTW I intend spending time at the tunnel in Zurich when we can get babysitters for twins - unless there is one in the UK?Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jurgencamps 0 #18 August 13, 2002 Hey there is a very good wind tunnel in Lille, France, just on the other side of the channel. CU JC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #19 August 15, 2002 One major skydiving survival skill that tunnel rats lack is a sense of timing. Before Cypri were invented 1/3 of fatalities were listed as no-pull/low-pull. If a young tunnel rat told (PFF Instructor) me that I was flying my body all wrong, I would do like billvon: nod politely and continue with the lesson. I sincerely hope that my students become better skydivers than me. That is the mark of a good instructor. I would also remind him about the boundaries of the student/instructor relationship. Surviving a skydive requires far more than just freefall skills. If you read the 2001 USPA Fatality Summary, you will note that 1/3 of fatalities occurred while landing perfectly serviceable main canopies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 3 #20 August 15, 2002 A person might be good enough in the tunnel to get a spot on the Arizona Airspeed farm team, but if they have trouble landing . . . guess who's not going to Nationals.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites weid14 0 #21 August 16, 2002 were you there? cause her team mate was and he said it was a very normal landing, nothing out of the ordinary, just a fluke thing, and I'm sure she's had more landings than you now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 15 #22 August 16, 2002 David... you've lost me here.. I'm trying to follow this line of thought but I think I just steped out of the door of the plane... Who are you refering to and what does this mysterious person have to do with a tunnel? Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 3 #23 August 16, 2002 I'll admit I was being quite flip with the example I used, but my point is the same -- the tunnel can't teach you everything.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crazy 0 #24 August 16, 2002 I know a few, with a few hundred hours in a wind tunnel. I would really want to see them in the sky and i have no doubt that they would be incredibly good students, from the exit to the opening. Maybe, for the exit they would have to adjust something (different orientation of the airflow), but they fly quite well and have excellent time awareness. Unfortunately skydiving is much too expensive for them.-- Come Skydive Asia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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ltdiver 3 #8 August 10, 2002 Quote A 14 year old kid in his freshman year of highschool well guess what in 4 years going to the tunnel say 1 hr a week, that's 208 hrs in the tunnel. Wow! Don't know many 14 year olds that have THAT kind of money in their back pocket! ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #9 August 10, 2002 QuoteIt is realistic figure this. A 14 year old kid in his freshman year of highschool decides well I am not old enough to skydive so i will go to the tunnel and practice till i am old enough to ie 18 most dzs. well guess what in 4 years going to the tunnel say 1 hr a week, that's 208 hrs in the tunnel. guess what he has more simulated freefall than most instructors, so what i am getting at is realistic you just misunderstand what i was asking. so now that you understand please respond back thanks. See, now you are talking about a 14 year old. The point is moot. I have less than an hour in the tunnel and believe it is a great tool. It's just not skydiving. I like the real thing and I'll leave it at that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #10 August 10, 2002 It would be like teaching someone to fly who has 200 hours in an airplane doing complex aerobatics, but has never taken off or landed. They still have a lot to learn to be complete as an AFF student. As far as telling me I'm doing it wrong . . . that's a personality thing. I would handle that by establishing clear parameters in the Instructor-Student relationship. I would not want to piss him off about it, because after the AFF is over, I just might learn something from him as well! Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpy 0 #11 August 10, 2002 QuoteWill there always be skydivers??? Probably. I hope so! I've never even been in a tunnel and it looks like a bit of fun for an afternoon i guess but i think i'd still rather the real deal. Most people don't do it to 'turn points' its for the rush and i can't see me getting an enormous rush from a tunnel. (hmm does anyone even know of any tunnels in Australia?) hmm i just had another thought as well...this persons had 200 hours in the tunnel but WITHOUT a rig so the body possition etc would be different...not really different i guess but your movement would be more constricted. It would probably only feel different for a while granted and would most likely be easily overcum just another thought i had. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Watcher 0 #12 August 11, 2002 The tunnel is a rush, and one that can be expirenced for longer than the normal 75 seconds of freefall. Its a rush, and if i was living in orlando i would be in the tunnel every single week. No packing . Incredible fun, levels become a bigger issue. And for some of us, getting faster and faster at turning points is the biggest rush in the world. If it was not for my Velocity 103, and the challenge of exits, i would perfer to do everything in the tunnel. Jonathan GTInviscidJonathan Bartlett D-24876 AFF-I Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
drenaline 0 #13 August 12, 2002 dude what about the rush you get everytime you are at the door of a plane, get hit by the prop wash, looking at the ground coming closer, reach the hackey knowing that you are about to save your life and pull, who is your greatest hero? yourself HISPA 21 www.panamafreefall.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kingbunky 3 #14 August 12, 2002 check out this thread, specifically the reply from SkymonkeyONE , 4th one down. but then again, you started that thread as well so maybe you've already seen it."Hang on a sec, the young'uns are throwin' beer cans at a golf cart." MB4252 TDS699 killing threads since 2001 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #15 August 12, 2002 >If you got a student that had more than 200 hours in the tunnel > doing AFF drills, RW, and Freeflying how would you feel about: >1. If they flew their body better than you. Plenty of my students fly better than me now; I've had naturals in AFF that had better air skills at 5 jumps than I had at 50. When I organize I often get people with better skills in some areas (tracking, flying quiet on big ways) than I do. It's just the way of the world. >2. Told you as an instructor that your doing it wrong. I would smile and nod and continue with what I was doing. There's a huge difference between flying in a tunnel and skydiving. If they stick with the sport they will eventually understand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hobbes4star 0 #16 August 12, 2002 that's funny isn't it. of course do you have a 14 yr old. i have a 14yr old and a 16 yr old. i don't know if you have been to a high school recently but i see a ton of teenage kids with designer clothing, cell phones and for the kids that can drive i see some 20,000+ priced vehicles that are in the parking lot. I am not saying that the kids are paying for these but it is the parents. and if the parents are willing to shell out $100 for a shirt than it would stand to reason that they would shell out $100 for some tunnel time.if fun were easy it wouldn't be worth having, right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 144 #17 August 13, 2002 Well a summary of my thoughts. I think it would be nice if tunnel flying became quite big, I enjoy flying my body but can't because of family commitments. I am not sure it has that much spectator apeal - although you do lose the sights of people hooking in etc. 2nd it is much cheaper than jumping and a nice idea to learn stability in a less intense environment than freefall. Last point I believe that it is naive to believe that tunnel-time = skydiving skill. A tunnel is safe - skydiving is not. I doubt that the tunnel raises the level of adrenalin/freaked out feeling that comes in skydiving and a cocky attitude by a virtual whuffo could kill them. If a paraglider pilot capable of CRW/swooping? or a snowboarder of skysurfing? Thats all - BTW I intend spending time at the tunnel in Zurich when we can get babysitters for twins - unless there is one in the UK?Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jurgencamps 0 #18 August 13, 2002 Hey there is a very good wind tunnel in Lille, France, just on the other side of the channel. CU JC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #19 August 15, 2002 One major skydiving survival skill that tunnel rats lack is a sense of timing. Before Cypri were invented 1/3 of fatalities were listed as no-pull/low-pull. If a young tunnel rat told (PFF Instructor) me that I was flying my body all wrong, I would do like billvon: nod politely and continue with the lesson. I sincerely hope that my students become better skydivers than me. That is the mark of a good instructor. I would also remind him about the boundaries of the student/instructor relationship. Surviving a skydive requires far more than just freefall skills. If you read the 2001 USPA Fatality Summary, you will note that 1/3 of fatalities occurred while landing perfectly serviceable main canopies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #20 August 15, 2002 A person might be good enough in the tunnel to get a spot on the Arizona Airspeed farm team, but if they have trouble landing . . . guess who's not going to Nationals.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #21 August 16, 2002 were you there? cause her team mate was and he said it was a very normal landing, nothing out of the ordinary, just a fluke thing, and I'm sure she's had more landings than you now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #22 August 16, 2002 David... you've lost me here.. I'm trying to follow this line of thought but I think I just steped out of the door of the plane... Who are you refering to and what does this mysterious person have to do with a tunnel? Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #23 August 16, 2002 I'll admit I was being quite flip with the example I used, but my point is the same -- the tunnel can't teach you everything.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crazy 0 #24 August 16, 2002 I know a few, with a few hundred hours in a wind tunnel. I would really want to see them in the sky and i have no doubt that they would be incredibly good students, from the exit to the opening. Maybe, for the exit they would have to adjust something (different orientation of the airflow), but they fly quite well and have excellent time awareness. Unfortunately skydiving is much too expensive for them.-- Come Skydive Asia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
