My First Reserve Ride.. (Birdman Jump)

[Jessica 0]

I think it's valid to point out that a jumper is ultimately responsible for the gear he or she chooses to jump -- especially the main system. It's not cool to blame the rigger in this case (if only because it gives a sense of diluting one's own responsibility for his own gear), and it brings up a very good point about pre-jump pin checks.

Good job on saving your ass, Kevin.

Skydiving is for cool people only

[skymama 35]

I definitely agree with you Jessica. I just didn't want this thread to turn into a "you woulda/shoulda/coulda" thread pointing at Kevin. He already knows there are things he should have done better. And, he knows he is ultimately responsible for his gear because he listed "do a better gear check" twice in his lesson's learned part of his post.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[QuickDraw 0]

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The tempo reserve I have was very very unresponsive. Full toggle turns resulted in very very slow turns (my first canopy was a cruiselight 220 and it turns at least as twice as fast as the tempo). It also had little to no flare. From a reserve standpoint it worked pefectly. I'm alive and limping. (hard landing)

I am of the same opinion as far as the tempo go's,
i tried stalling the canopy on my (only) reserve ride and found it would not,
it was then i realized it was my last chance and maybe it was not a good idea to try,
i also ran out of arms on the flare too, although i was told afterwards that sometimes you can take another wrap of the brakes if needed. (is that right??)
I was more surprised at the fact that i had no idea (or had not asked) what i was to expect from a reserve canopy,
in hindsight i think it should have crossed my mind.....as i am sure i was never drilled on what happens after you pull silver.

Glad it worked out ok for you in the end dude, and the pictures you posted are priceless.
Looking at them with tired eye's (been a long day) it still took me a moment to see what was wrong
so don't beat yourself up too much about it.
You lived, you learned & most importantly...you shared.

-- Hope you don't die. --

I'm fucking winning

[hookitt 0]

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I've already sent my props to Kevin via Private Message. I suppose it would have served well out in the open.

It takes balls to share mistakes in an open forum. He did so for the benifit of others. Skydivers are so damned critical of each other when not speaking face to face. No one likes to admit mistakes. And I commend Kevin for sharing this for the benifit of others with out regards to his own comfort.

This apparently is a slam directed at Gravitymaster and I apoligize for wording it as such. Sorry man.

It takes balls to openly admit in a public forum such as this mis rig. Kevin who Was ultimately responsible will take time to perform a proper Gear Check not just a pin check, Cuz sure enough... it's a pin alright.

Either way. Thanks Kevin. Lets leave this alone and let the pictures speak for themselves.

C-ya

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[freekflyguy 0]

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If you're implying that based on my jump numbers I should have caught this mistake I think you're out of line.

Im sorry but he is absolutely right. You missed this basic check and obvious mal. You could just as easily missed something else the may have caused a double mal.

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People make mistakes and i'm sure you're not mr perfect (and if you are, by all means accept my apology but I don't know you so I can't really say for sure).

Thats right, we all have some have cost us more dear than others, Ive just had the metal out of my ankle due to my mistake, but it was MY mistake, not PD's for having loops instead of blocks on their demo canopy risers.

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Keep in mind someone with far more experience than put the mistake there.. so accidents happen.

If he has accepted responsibility for misrouting the bridal after the rig being out of his sight for over 2 weeks, then he is a unique charachter. As I said before once it leaves his loft its no longer his responsibility.

If he had made such a basic error on my equipment, I would no longer be using his services. Your reserve worked OK but I would still be wary of an experienced rigger who failed to spot a glaring mistake like that.

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So not to bash you or anything but unless you know me and have jumped with me or seen my abilities keep it to yourself or have the decency to PM it to me.

Sorry but although you had the balls to post what happened, the fact that it did shows a certain lack of experience.

Buzz

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.

[kevin922 0]

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If you're implying that based on my jump numbers I should have caught this mistake I think you're out of line.

Im sorry but he is absolutely right. You missed this basic check and obvious mal. You could just as easily missed something else the may have caused a double mal.

Yes I know, and I have already acknowledged that I messed up.. would you like me to print up a t-shirt that says it or would you like to continue to harp on this?

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People make mistakes and i'm sure you're not mr perfect (and if you are, by all means accept my apology but I don't know you so I can't really say for sure).

Thats right, we all have some have cost us more dear than others, Ive just had the metal out of my ankle due to my mistake, but it was MY mistake, not PD's for having loops instead of blocks on their demo canopy risers.

Okay i'll print 2 shirts, one for you too

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Keep in mind someone with far more experience than put the mistake there.. so accidents happen.

If he has accepted responsibility for misrouting the bridal after the rig being out of his sight for over 2 weeks, then he is a unique charachter. As I said before once it leaves his loft its no longer his responsibility.

Well I told you what the facts were, are you calling me a liar? I know where my rig was..

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If he had made such a basic error on my equipment, I would no longer be using his services. Your reserve worked OK but I would still be wary of an experienced rigger who failed to spot a glaring mistake like that.

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So not to bash you or anything but unless you know me and have jumped with me or seen my abilities keep it to yourself or have the decency to PM it to me.

Sorry but although you had the balls to post what happened, the fact that it did shows a certain lack of experience.

Buzz

I'm sorry is it me or did I overlook the post on your fawk up ? It was posted for people to learn, if you want to criticize then PM it to me.

i'm done.

Kevin

[LouDiamond 1]

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Sorry but although you had the balls to post what happened, the fact that it did shows a certain lack of experience.

Ok, I can see were you might be able to say some of the previous things in your post but the above quoted statement is just pure talking out of your ass. I jump at Orange with Kevin and unless you know Kevin, which I seriously doubt, you have no basis to even make that statement. YOU'VE never made a mistake in your life, skydiving related or not? We've all made them, anyone who says they haven't either doesn't skydive or is a straight up liar.

Experience doesn't make you immune from mistakes. In fact, I've seen more so called "experienced" jumpers make some really basic mistakes, some it cost their lives others hospital trips. So unless you happen to be Kevin's shadow, I think you have no room to even question his experience.


Since you obviously don't know the rigger either, you have no room to comment there. Ask around or ask your rigger and I guarentee you will find that there has been a time when they made a mistake too. It happens, if you think it doesn't your only fooling yourself.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[hookitt 0]

All right... If you're going to print up some T-Shirts, I want one as well.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[freekflyguy 0]

Yes I know, and I have already acknowledged that I messed up.. would you like me to print up a t-shirt that says it or would you like to continue to harp on this?
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Oh I wanna harp on. You said and I quote

"If you're implying that based on my jump numbers I should have caught this mistake I think you're out of line."

The guy was right, you didnt spot something so obvious, and were lucky nothing worse happened. I am amazed that you actually carried out a pin check but didnt notice it.

You also said

"Well I told you what the facts were, are you calling me a liar? I know where my rig was.. "

No I'm not calling you a liar, just saying that the rigger in question seems a little niave in accepting the responsibility for something that he did not know, nor could you prove was his fault.

And I could get rid of at least a dozen of those shirts when you get em made up.

Buzz

[TomAiello 25]

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...reserve becoming entangled with the PC in tow. Which got me thinking even more, how much of a risk is it? and with a birdman pilot chute (the longer ones) how much more of a risk is it?

I had a reserve ride on my first wingsuit flight, in a very similar circumstance (my PC caught in my burble, and I flailed a bit but couldn't get it out). I was quite concerned about the entanglement possibility (one of my friends once broke his pelvis in 11 places like that), so I grabbed the PC with my hand, then fired the reserve (while holding the PC) with my other hand.
If I had more time to think, I probably would have tried re-pitching the PC. But, we all make mistakes, and I'm still around to try and get it right the next time.
Thanks for posting your story. Lots of stuff to think about here. In a sport where a simple rigging error can create a total malfunction, thank god you had a reserve.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[freekflyguy 0]

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Sorry but although you had the balls to post what happened, the fact that it did shows a certain lack of experience.

Ok, I can see were you might be able to say some of the previous things in your post but the above quoted statement is just pure talking out of your ass. ........ YOU'VE never made a mistake in your life, skydiving related or not?

I stand by what I said, he checked his kit but did not notice it, look at the pic

http://www.interone.net/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=Skydiving-Adventures&id=aay

This is exactly the kind of thing I do when teaching students how to carry out flight-line checks. Something which is mandatory under the BPA.

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Experience doesn't make you immune from mistakes............ I think you have no room to even question his experience.

Very true, but then again neither does 200 jumps. Mistakes, your own or someone elses give you experience. Time gives you experience.

I will always question experience when something like this happens to someone. I will also question many other factors, to try and avoid simillar situations arising in the future.

If I did not, then I would be failing in my position as an instructor.

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Since you obviously don't know the rigger either, you have no room to comment there. Ask around or ask your rigger and I guarentee you will find that there has been a time when they made a mistake too. It happens, if you think it doesn't your only fooling yourself.

It is in everyones interest to make sure that riggers dont make these kind of mistakes. If he misroutes the bridal on a container, whats to say that one day he may not leave a molar strap on??

I know riggers that have made mistakes and I have reported it to the appropriate people. We are in a sport where mistake can lead to fatalities, to take them lightly is not god Karma.

Buzz

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.

[rgoper 0]

i'm not going to quote anything you said in either of your posts, because it would serve no purpose. at the onset of this post topic Kevin stated he was going to post this incident so it wouldn't happen to anyone else, who would've thought he'd be scorched for it? (go figure) but now to my point in responding to your post(s) it's mentality like this that will keep sky divers from posting, or relating their "close calls" for others to learn from. Kevin had to know before he posted, there might be some heat, but this is B.S. i'm glad he lived through it, and learned, (regardless of jump numbers, or type of jump, quick identification of mal, and proper emergency procedures saved Kevin's life) and shared his experience with others. don't think the same stunt cannot happen to you, i've seen some strange stuff. i lost two friends last year alone, and it can happen to anyone of us, at anytime. when you think it can't, that's when it will, learn, don't be a statistic.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[hookitt 0]

Thank you

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[rgoper 0]

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Thank you

your welcome.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[sunshine 2]

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2) Get a PD reserve.

Just curious on this one. Have you actually flown a PD reserve so you know how it differs from a Tempo? I know you can demo them and was just wondering if you had done that.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[LouDiamond 1]

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I will always question experience when something like this happens to someone. I will also question many other factors, to try and avoid simillar situations arising in the future.

Well said, which is why I could question your experience based on your dive loop/block riser induced ankle relocation incident you so proudly display in your icon.

Kevin put this up in hopes someone else wouldn't have the same problem, not for you to arm chair quarterback his actions or question his ability. I would think you as an instructor would have the ability to recognize the teaching point here and avoid the finger pointing and questioning.

That's all I have to say about this.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Gravitymaster 0]

I do think you are being a little too hard on Kevin. I originally questioned whether his 200+ jumps were sufficient for jumping a Birdman Suit because Birdmans Flight manual states a minimum of 500 jumps. I have since been informed they approve you with 200 jumps if you get proper instruction beforehand. My opinion on this is the subject of another thread.

Kevin screwed up and he knows it. There's no further benefit to him or anyone else for you to continue to deride him.

Bob

[lewmonst 0]

Kevin,

Thanks for posting.

shit happens. hopefully someone will take a little more time in a pin-check to make sure shit doesn't re-happen, thanks to your openness.

blue skies, glad you're ok!

peace

http://www.exitshot.com

[weid14 0]

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2) Get a PD reserve.

Just curious on this one. Have you actually flown a PD reserve so you know how it differs from a Tempo? I know you can demo them and was just wondering if you had done that.

I jump a PD loaded at about 1.5, they land like a dream, soft no issues, I have jumped other reserves loaded a lot less that thumped me in. My money is on PD any day....

this particular Mal (good job not wasting any time Kevin), brings to mind another thread about packing the main and those who wondered why they had to do it per the manual. The rig looks like a Mirage, it needs to be packed a certain way. If a packer or yourself doesn't know, find out, or have someone else pack it!

[murrays 0]

Kevin,
If it makes you feel any better, I recently heard that a friend of mine with 9,000+ jumps and over 30 years in the sport recently packed himself a similar pc in tow.
I don't think you'll ever let this happen to you again. Good job on saving yourself and kudos for being man enough to post and take the inevitable flak....I certainly learned from your experience and that is why you posted. Thanks for posting, especially the pictures.

--
Murray

"No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey

[Jessica 0]

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Thanks for posting, especially the pictures.

I really appreciate those, too. The same malfunction happened to another dz.commer a while back, but there were no pictures. I sat there with a rig for a long time, scratching my head and trying to figure out how it happened. The photos really clarify things.

Skydiving is for cool people only

[ManBird 0]

I've had two slight PC hesitations out of about 40 flights.

OK, that aside, I had a PC in tow once, not in a wing suit. I'm not sure what happened, probably closing loop was too tight. I pitched at 3 and had a little bit of room, so reached back and pulled the pin manually (one of the reasons why I always feel for the main pin cover in my OCD gear checks).

What do you think would happen in a wingsuit in that scenario? I know I can still reach back, but it's more difficult, and if any wing catches any air while doing it, it might cause a horseshoe. Any thoughts?

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[fudd 0]

You are not the first to do this...

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=188845#188845

(Pictures there to...)

It shouldn't be hard to catch on a pin check. However, I missed it when I checked my rig, The person doing my pre-flight pin check missed it and the person in the plane who checked it before I got out missed it.

PEOPLE - LOOK AT THESE PICTURES AND LEARN. THIS WILL HAPPEN AGAIN.

I got so angry when I came down, threw off my rigg and right away noticed what the fuck I had done.

Well I expect the beer is bought and drunk.
Good job saving your life!

There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

[rmsmith 1]

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If it makes you feel any better, I recently heard that a friend of mine with 9,000+ jumps and over 30 years in the sport recently packed himself a similar pc in tow.

This is why I use a pull-out PC. The mis-routed bridle was killing skydivers back in the seventies, and while the BOC has eliminated many problems, the continued popularity of the throw-out PC baffles me.

[TomAiello 25]

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This is why I use a pull-out PC. The mis-routed bridle was killing skydivers back in the seventies, and while the BOC has eliminated many problems, the continued popularity of the throw-out PC baffles me.

In this case, Kevin was wearing a wing suit. Bird-man cautions against using pull-out PC's with wing suits, because there is a greater chance of the PC being caught in the burble.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com