Rdutch 0 #1 August 27, 2003 After the 3rd case I know of, a jumper grabbing the wrong rig and ending up under an extremely small canopy. All three cases the jumpers had less than 50 jumps, and all ended up jumping canopies under 100 sq ft. Two of the cases the jumpers landed the main just fine, one didnt realise until he landed, and the third cut away and landed a small reserve. Now the best answer to this is not to do it, but thats easier said than done. All three times the rigs didnt look like the rigs they ended up jumping, except for Make, and a similar color. The rig yesterday was all grey, while the rig supposed to be jumped was grey and orange. None of them were similar size, heck one was so small and the jumper so big it is amazing that he even could fit in the rig. Here is the question? If you do find yourself under a canopy you realize is way smaller than your used to, do you land it, or cut away? Landing it is one thing, but cutting away leaves another problem, what size reserve, what kind of reserve ect. You have no idea. Another thing is do you want to get rid of your open canopy to take your last chance? All of these incedents ended up fine, but could have easily ended up bad. But after sitting around talking about it, no one could agree on if he should have landed the main or jumped the reserve. Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #2 August 27, 2003 QuoteNow the best answer to this is not to do it, but thats easier said than done. Put tags like PD does on the risers...And make that a part of the gear check. QuoteHere is the question? If you do find yourself under a canopy you realize is way smaller than your used to, do you land it, or cut away? Since the smallest I've jumped is a 69 and much smaller than that I'd be flying a kite, so I'd chop it. now I jump a 107, so if it was smaller than that but above kite sized, I'd hook it higher. Now I would tell people to do what is comfertable with them, and do it high. I would like to see students get instruction about HP canopies...Drill into them that a low turn will kill you. QuoteLanding it is one thing, but cutting away leaves another problem, what size reserve, what kind of reserve ect. You have no idea. the smallest reserve will be safer for a new person to land than a tiny main. QuoteAnother thing is do you want to get rid of your open canopy to take your last chance? Well a reserve mal is possible and it has happend, but I'd play the odds it will work fine. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casch 0 #3 August 27, 2003 Another thing you might think about though is this. If someone is...unknowleged enough to pick up the wrong rig loaded with a smaller canopy, who's to say that person is really going to know how a 150 looks vs a napkin? The only canopy they've likely seen is a 280-290. Obviously it would not be ideal to have them land the napkin, but should they cutaway a perfectly good/safe 150 just because it's smaller than what they usually jump? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #4 August 27, 2003 In this sport we can correct the first fault, we may survive the second, but the third one is usually fatal. With the same efforts they couldve jumped with a bag of bricks too. Choping? Good question. There is usually a small reserve with the pocket rockets, it seems a bit bigger chance to survive with those. I bet those were quite light jumpers. Im about 220 at door, so it would be a very deep shit for me..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jib 0 #5 August 27, 2003 Quote the smallest reserve will be safer for a new person to land than a tiny main. Ron He said sub-100 mains with a jumper who could barely get the rig on... Is a reserve really safer loaded up like that (F-111, stalls)? Are you betting that it's larger and therefore safer than the main? Other thoughts? -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #6 August 27, 2003 QuoteHe said sub-100 mains with a jumper who could barely get the rig on... Is a reserve really safer loaded up like that (F-111, stalls)? Are you betting that it's larger and therefore safer than the main? Other thoughts? Well the smallest reserve that PD makes (I think) is a 113. I think most small reserves are around 100 as well. I am sure that most rigs with sub 100 sized canopies have around 100 sized reserves. I do think that a 100 sized reserve is safer than a sub 100 main to land. Yes, it can stall on you.. I have a 1.6 loaded PD113 that I have landed just great in brakes, but I have seen some other reserves land the pilot hard...but I still think safer than a newbie under a sub 100 main."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikemc 0 #7 August 27, 2003 just a thought, did the jumper KNOW he was under a 96 and chop it or did he think he was having a mal and chop it? I remember going from a 280 to a 200 and having a good second and third look because it looked so small. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #8 August 27, 2003 PD makes a 106 reserve. I have two of them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #9 August 27, 2003 Ok....well still a 106R is better than a sub 100 main. Don't you agree?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #10 August 27, 2003 Well - It's unlikely to happen to some of us. I'm jumping the second smallest rig at our DZ - and are capable of enjoying the smallest - with a small blush of apology. As far as students go, I'd tell em not to do it. If they did... tricky... but I'd tell them to stay with the main, make light control inputs, and not to overbrake too high. It would be easier just to teach them not to do it - or teach the staff to spot it. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #11 August 27, 2003 I'm trying to figure out who is leaving their pocket rockets around for a newbie to pick up? Are they grabbing the wrong demo rig or what? The owner of the rigs needs to ensure this doesn't happen. As for which one to land it's a toss up. But it's very hard to recommend someone chose to cutaway a good canopy to use their LAST CHANCE TO LIVE. Yes I know I'm yelling, but reserves are just another parachute that can malfunction. I'd don't know if I trust my reserve enough to use it if I have an open main, and I'm the rigger.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rdutch 0 #12 August 27, 2003 Quotejust a thought, did the jumper KNOW he was under a 96 and chop it or did he think he was having a mal and chop it? I remember going from a 280 to a 200 and having a good second and third look because it looked so small. Yes he knew it was small and that is why he chopped it. Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #13 August 27, 2003 QuotePD makes a 106 reserve. I have two of them. Depends. I think I would rather slide in a landing on a sub 100 crossbrace than stall a 106 if I were a student. Straight in, no speed building maneuver, just butt slide Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #14 August 27, 2003 QuoteDrill into them that a low turn will kill you. WILL kill you? You crack me up Ron. Here I have been trying to drill into my girlfriend that low turns save lives. Nevermind-just fly into the tree's, powerlines, freeway, building, alligator infested pond, or whatever you are heading at, but for god sake don't perform a properly executed low turn. It WILL kill you. Do you actually use this line in a FJC? If so do you define a low turn? This attitude is why LeeAnn would never turn below a certain point when I met her. I watched her land right in front of a line of trees when we were landing off one day as she flew towards them from a couple hundred feet. Can you say panic turn! Josh Low turns save lives That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #15 August 27, 2003 If it was there and flying OK, I'd keep it. I'd rather have 2000ft to explore the behavior of a strange main than 1000ft to explore the behavior of a strange reserve.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #16 August 27, 2003 QuoteI'm trying to figure out who is leaving their pocket rockets around for a newbie to pick up? Well at our DZ, just about everybody leaves their gear lying around in the hangar. Since we´re not sitting on our rigs most of the time, well, I suppose it could happen... I myself put on a friends Atom once by mistake, similar to mine but one size smaller with a Tri 120/Techno 115 instead of my Spectre 150/Transfair 128. Noticed it when I fastened my chest strap: 'Hey how come there´s a hair elastic on here for a keeper??' Oops ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #17 August 27, 2003 QuoteWILL kill you? You crack me up Ron. Here I have been trying to drill into my girlfriend that low turns save lives. Nevermind-just fly into the tree's, powerlines, freeway, building, alligator infested pond, or whatever you are heading at, but for god sake don't perform a properly executed low turn. It WILL kill you. Do you actually use this line in a FJC? If so do you define a low turn? This attitude is why LeeAnn would never turn below a certain point when I met her. I watched her land right in front of a line of trees when we were landing off one day as she flew towards them from a couple hundred feet. Can you say panic turn! Oh good grief lets start picking at it.... And yes, landing in tress is safer than a low turn. If you can do a turn, then its not low now is it? If you do a braked turn at 50 feet its not low....For that turn now is it? Jezz people"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
webracer 0 #18 August 27, 2003 I would suggest to land the main. Go straight in, find an open area where you are unlikely to run out of space. I too do not agree with cutting away a perfectly good canopy. I feel anyone can land almost any main (with a low level of experience), it is the hazards that will bury you. Avoid traffic areas the best you can, and prepare to slide/plf. The best advice I can give though, is check your rig before you put it on! I always check my throwout and main pin prior to donning the rig, even when I have packed it, and am doing 10 + jumps/day. This isn't all happening at the same DZ is it?Troy I am now free to exercise my downward mobility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unutsch 0 #19 August 27, 2003 we have separate packing mats for students and for """experienced""" (hehe, noticed the 3 " ?? jumpers at our DZ... in addition to that, we also have separate mats to put packed rigs on... so far, we had no such incident, but we are definetely not immune to that, especially with quite some 2-5 hop&pops per year jumpers that scare the shit out of me Check out the site of the Fallen Angels FreeflY Organisation: http://www.padliangeli.org Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #20 August 27, 2003 QuoteAnd yes, landing in tress is safer than a low turn. If you can do a turn, then its not low now is it? If you do a braked turn at 50 feet its not low....For that turn now is it? Depends on who you ask. The word "low" is relative hence my question which you did not answer. QuoteDo you actually use this line in a FJC? If so do you define a low turn? Giving out advice that a low turn will kill you without any idea of what someone else may consider a low turn is, in my opinion, not very sound advise. That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #21 August 27, 2003 QuoteDepends on who you ask. The word "low" is relative hence my question which you did not answer. For a student it is safer for them to land in a tree than try to turn. Anyone else should have the experience to know when you can make a turn....For students I tell them 200 feet. I have yet to see a student get hurt by a tree..I have seen several carried off due to a low turn. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WayneRATS 0 #22 August 27, 2003 who is the person who did the gear check? why didn't that person question why the guy had a tiny rig on?------------------------ Can You Ere Me Now? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #23 August 27, 2003 >>If it was there and flying OK, I'd keep it. I'd rather have 2000ft to explore the behavior of a strange main than 1000ft to explore the behavior of a strange reserve. << Well said. I'd keep it, too, since I really don't think the tiny 7-cell F-111 reserve that it would probably be paired with would really be much better. Brent ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #24 August 27, 2003 QuoteWell said. I'd keep it, too, since I really don't think the tiny 7-cell F-111 reserve that it would probably be paired with would really be much better. OK Brent, go Demo a Velocity 103 next weekend and tell me what you think...Then go jump a PD113 and let me know."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #25 August 27, 2003 Quotewe have separate packing mats for students and for """experienced""" (hehe, noticed the 3 " ?? jumpers at our DZ... in addition to that, we also have separate mats to put packed rigs on... so far, we had no such incident, but we are definetely not immune to that, especially with quite some 2-5 hop&pops per year jumpers that scare the shit out of me Yes, but there's always boogies etc. to think about.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
