Jib 0 #51 August 28, 2003 QuoteReserves aren't of unknown size and quality. He may have been referring to the Max Weights e.g. Raven-M 109 is 159lbs v. PD-R 106 is 220lbs -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #52 August 28, 2003 >>I'm amazed no one has said "keep the main and deploy the reserve". << This is a pretty bold approach to the problem, because it will either give a good result or a REALLY bad one. If you wind up with a nice biplane, you would have picked correctly and would probably have a better landing under both than under either by itself. If you wind up landing a downplane, either because the two out turns into one too low or because it turns into one that you screw around with too long because you were unprepared for the altitude loss associated with the smaller canopies, the Incidents forum will memorialize your stupidity. Similar results for your cutaway main fouling your reserve, your deploying reserve entangling with your main, etc. Maybe we should all start wearing butt mounted drag chutes off race cars in case we pick up the wrong rig. That way we'd have something besides the smoking soles of our feet to slow us down. Brent (enjoying this thread) ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #53 August 28, 2003 QuoteQuoteCutting away and going for a reserve of unknown size - and more importantly, of unknown quality adds nothing. Reserves are F111, which don't age well. I'd rather be under highly loaded ZP then highly loaded F111. Reserves aren't of unknown size and quality. They're generally sized similarly to the main and usually a little larger. The average reserve is going to be a low aspect 7-cell or something similarly docile. They're TSO'd, inspected every 120 days, and packed with much greater care than the average main. That's worth considerably more than nothing to me. Bob What does care in packing have to do with it? Apparently you already have a perfectly good main deployed and flying over your head. The entire rig is unknown to you, and you don't know what brand or size the reserve is (it may even be a round!).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #54 August 28, 2003 QuoteApparently you already have a perfectly good main deployed and flying over your head. I'd hardly define losing 74sq feet as a perfectly good main - perspective....it's all about perspective (I mean, think of that in percentage of wing). I have little doubt that most here would, at 40 jumps and being placed in the same situation, have done the same thing. Quoteit may even be a round! ok...and? I feel like this debate has reached the end of it's usefullness. There's no doubt that both sides have valid points, once again it's all up to the individual in the situation. I doubt he is questioning his actions as much as this forum is. Time to move on methinks Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #55 August 28, 2003 QuoteCutting away and going for a reserve of unknown size - and more importantly, of unknown quality adds nothing. Reserves are F111, which don't age well. I'd rather be under highly loaded ZP then highly loaded F111. Please correct me, but a barly used F111 is something like ZP???? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #56 August 28, 2003 QuoteIn the scenario presented, we wouldn't know that the reserve was a PD113. It would be just as much a mystery as the main. Yes, but there are not many smaller than the PD106R...And with the design of the Reserve being low aspect ratio, and 7 cells. I would feel better with a newbie under a 106 reserve insted of a 103 Velocity. The small mistake on the PD106R is gonna hurt or not even matter...The small mistke on the Velocity,is gonna hurt or maybe kill you."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #57 August 28, 2003 QuoteWhat does care in packing have to do with it? Apparently you already have a perfectly good main deployed and flying over your head. The entire rig is unknown to you, and you don't know what brand or size the reserve is (it may even be a round!). John, have you jumped a reserve? It is much less sensitive to input...Much easier to control safely than a 2 to 1 loaded Velocity....Even with out knowing what size the reserve was....I would suggest that you cutaway and use it...Yes, it could be a 106...Which is still larger than the 96 Velocity, but it could also be a 126, or even a 143. And ALL reserves would be safer in this situation to land than a 2 to 1 loaded Xbraced. And if it was a round, even better. I have 34 round jumps...It is hard to screw up a landing on a round."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #58 August 28, 2003 QuoteQuoteWhat does care in packing have to do with it? Apparently you already have a perfectly good main deployed and flying over your head. The entire rig is unknown to you, and you don't know what brand or size the reserve is (it may even be a round!). John, have you jumped a reserve? It is much less sensitive to input...Much easier to control safely than a 2 to 1 loaded Velocity....Even with out knowing what size the reserve was....I would suggest that you cutaway and use it...Yes, it could be a 106...Which is still larger than the 96 Velocity, but it could also be a 126, or even a 143. And ALL reserves would be safer in this situation to land than a 2 to 1 loaded Xbraced. And if it was a round, even better. I have 34 round jumps...It is hard to screw up a landing on a round. Well, I haven't jumped a reserve (must be a great packer or something). The problem I have with your answer is how would I know I had an 84 or a 96 or a 109 over my head - I'm not sure I could estimate the area (and therefore WL) while still in the "OH shit" phase of finding something unexpected up there. Not sure I could even identify the type of canopy up there. My opinion is I'd rather spend 2,000ft feeling out a strange main and having about 2 square miles to select a landing area from, than 1,000ft feeling out a strange reserve and reducing my potential landing sites by 75%... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #59 August 28, 2003 QuoteThe problem I have with your answer is how would I know I had an 84 or a 96 or a 109 over my head - I'm not sure I could estimate the area (and therefore WL) while still in the "OH shit" phase of finding something unexpected up there. Not sure I could even identify the type of canopy up there. My opinion is I'd rather spend 2,000ft feeling out a strange main and having about 2 square miles to select a landing area from, than 1,000ft feeling out a strange reserve and reducing my potential landing sites by 75% Well, you know is tiny and reacts very fast. Put a jump on a Reserve and then tell me this same answer. Have you ever jumped a 7 cell?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveNFlorida 0 #60 August 29, 2003 I may be called stupid for this, but i'd try to land it. I wouldn't be willing to chop a perfect canopy not knowing what malfuncitons might happen with the reserve. I may break bones (hopefully not, i'd definitely be as conservative as possible), but at least I know i'll likely live, whereas i'd have no clue if that reserve would open ok, and there's no getting that main back. Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #61 August 29, 2003 Quote I may be called stupid for this, Nope, but you have no idea what this canopy is like..... QuoteI wouldn't be willing to chop a perfect canopy not knowing what malfuncitons might happen with the reserve. I may break bones (hopefully not, i'd definitely be as conservative as possible), but at least I know i'll likely live, This canopy at that WL could very easily kill you. The reserve is a much safer bet. Quotewhereas i'd have no clue if that reserve would open ok, and there's no getting that main back. I would put my money on the reserve working....And have. This canopy will SPIRAL with just a lean in the harness. It will slam you if your flare is not even. I know people that have DIED by just missing the flair on canopies like this. No offense, but you have no idea how radical this canopy is. People need to understand that while the reseve is not perfect it is there for just this kind of thing.... The ONE question I have students ask themselves is not is it square, is it steerable, is it pretty?....It is "Can I safely land this?" If the answer is no....And I strongly feel that to attempt to land this is a mistake. Get rid of it. I base this off of jumping both a 1.7 loaded reserve 6 times, 370 jumps on a Raven II as a main, and several hundered jumps on Xbraced canopies from 69-96. I would suggest that you land the reserve....."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #62 August 29, 2003 QuoteQuoteThe problem I have with your answer is how would I know I had an 84 or a 96 or a 109 over my head - I'm not sure I could estimate the area (and therefore WL) while still in the "OH shit" phase of finding something unexpected up there. Not sure I could even identify the type of canopy up there. My opinion is I'd rather spend 2,000ft feeling out a strange main and having about 2 square miles to select a landing area from, than 1,000ft feeling out a strange reserve and reducing my potential landing sites by 75% Well, you know is tiny and reacts very fast. Put a jump on a Reserve and then tell me this same answer. Have you ever jumped a 7 cell? yes, I've jumped a Spectre. Can't say I liked it that much.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lazyfrog 0 #63 August 29, 2003 maybe if you do NOT let pepole taking rigs on their own... already had long discussions on the thread with the last incident you mentionned... and some people said he did the right thing. Actually I think what he did worked out fine... Ok for him... but I wouldn't have chopped it but tried to find a nice landing area and land it as straight as possible---------- Fumer tue, péter pue ------------- ourson #10, Mosquito Uno, CBT 579 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #64 August 29, 2003 Quoteyes, I've jumped a Spectre. Can't say I liked it that much. why didn't you like it? Did it feel sluggish?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #65 August 29, 2003 QuoteQuoteyes, I've jumped a Spectre. Can't say I liked it that much. why didn't you like it? Did it feel sluggish? That would be about it. Kind of like a truck compared to a sports car. Or maybe it felt like it was flying in molasses.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #66 August 29, 2003 QuoteThat would be about it. Kind of like a truck compared to a sports car. Or maybe it felt like it was flying in molasses. So, knowing this do you still think it would be better to try and land a HP main that you have never been under. Or a low performance canopy that you have never been under? How about a guy with 40 jumps?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #67 August 29, 2003 QuoteSo, knowing this do you still think it would be better to try and land a HP main that you have never been under. Or a low performance canopy that you have never been under? You can see. Low time jumpers are doing the same thing with their own HP canopy they can not handle. But it seems they are doing a bit better. :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davidcjansen 0 #68 September 1, 2003 I'm the guy who jumped with the wrong canopy and I'd like to reply and talk briefly about what happened. First of all I'd like to admit what a stupid and dumb thing I did. There is no excuse for it and I won't bother making one. I had my head up my ass and it could have cost me my life. I made a terrible mistake that could have gotten me hurt or worse. I'd also like to say that I'm thankful I didn't endanger anybody else around me. I'm very glad to have lived through this incident to jump another day. Now with that aside I would like to discuss what was going through my mind. I don't know why I put on that canopy and didn't notice it was different. It was right next to my rig that I rented and it looked somewhat similar. I'm sure there are all kinds of thing that could have been done to avoid this. But in the end it was up to me to notice. If I had of been paying more attention to what I was putting on my back this wouldn't have happened. I got in a rush to get ready for my next jump and I got complacent. Even though I'm a novice jumper I still got in to much of a hurry and didn't pay close enough attention; which resulted in the above experience. I realized I was wearing the wrong chute after deployment of the canopy. It's a good thing i deployed kind of high (4500 feet) because it gave me some time to deal with this canopy. It scared the living hell out of me by the way. Right now I'm jumping 190's and that's as small as I have gotten so far. I rode this canopy for about a thousand feet; steering, flaring, just sizing it up as best as I could. I made the decision to dump at around three-thousand feet and actually cut away at 2,500. The main canopy was way too much for me and I was pretty sure I was going to get hurt either way. I felt maybe I could increase my odds under the reserve. I have read through all of the replys and boths sides have valid points. Ultimately it was up to me to decide if I could land safely or not. There usually isn't much time between deployment and hard deck and I didn't want to spend too much time second guessing myself. I'm a novice jumper and this sport isn't very forgiving to anybody; newbies or veterans. I made the decision to dump because it felt like the right thing for me to do. If I could go back and relive the whole thing I wouldn't have put on the wrong canopy in the first place. Unfortunately I can't do that so I'll use this as a learning experience. I wouldn't wish this kind of thing on any newbie. If you do find yourself in my shoes my advice to you is to stay cool and keep your head. Do what you feel is right and see it through. Keeping my head has saved my ass twice now. If somebody is watching over me "thank you." One last thing. I would like to extend my apologies to Skydive Deland and my sincerest gratitude. You guys have been very kind to me about this and I look forward to jumping at your dropzone on many more occasions. Regards, David Jansen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rdutch 0 #69 September 1, 2003 Thanks for replying, it adds a little clarification, to what was going through your mind, and how it happened. One more thing (!BEER!). keep safe. Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,625 #70 September 1, 2003 QuoteQuoteThat would be about it. Kind of like a truck compared to a sports car. Or maybe it felt like it was flying in molasses. So, knowing this do you still think it would be better to try and land a HP main that you have never been under. Or a low performance canopy that you have never been under? How about a guy with 40 jumps? But I don't have 40 jumps. I'd still stick the the main I could try out up high rather than the unknown reserve. I don't see a tiny reserve as necessarily being "low performance" - after all, speed depends primarily on WL (seems someone keeps preaching that message).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #71 September 2, 2003 QuoteBut I don't have 40 jumps. I'd still stick the the main I could try out up high rather than the unknown reserve. I don't see a tiny reserve as necessarily being "low performance" - after all, speed depends primarily on WL (seems someone keeps preaching that message). Go jump a reserve the same size as your main and then tell me this."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,625 #72 September 2, 2003 QuoteQuoteBut I don't have 40 jumps. I'd still stick the the main I could try out up high rather than the unknown reserve. I don't see a tiny reserve as necessarily being "low performance" - after all, speed depends primarily on WL (seems someone keeps preaching that message). Go jump a reserve the same size as your main and then tell me this. Do they violate the laws of physics, then?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #73 September 2, 2003 QuoteDo they violate the laws of physics, then? Nope, but I would much rather have a person under a high wingload under a PD reserve than a Velocity. If you have flown the types of canopies that we are talking about then I think you would agree.... And if you have not, then you really don't know what you are talking about right? Where are your facts here? Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,625 #74 September 2, 2003 QuoteQuoteDo they violate the laws of physics, then? Nope, but I would much rather have a person under a high wingload under a PD reserve than a Velocity. If you have flown the types of canopies that we are talking about then I think you would agree.... And if you have not, then you really don't know what you are talking about right? Where are your facts here? Ron Educate me - why does an X sq. ft. reserve fly slower than an X sq. ft. main at the same loading? Does it have a higher lift coefficient? If so, how do the designers manage that? If not, what is the secret of its slower speed?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #75 September 2, 2003 QuoteEducate me - why does an X sq. ft. reserve fly slower than an X sq. ft. main at the same loading? Does it have a higher lift coefficient? If so, how do the designers manage that? If not, what is the secret of its slower speed? Never said it was slower...I said it was less responsive. And a 7 cell F-111 with a low aspect ratio is less RESPONSIVE than a high aspect ratio Xbraced Zero P. Plus in this case the reserve was larger than the main by 17 square feet. So John, why don't you go jump a Velocity 96 and then a PD113 and you tell me what you would rather a guy with 40 jumps land. Since I have several hundred on a Velocity 96, and 6 on a PD113...(So, I have personal knowledge about both types of canopies)...I say I would rather put him out on a PD113 any day."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Rdutch 0 #69 September 1, 2003 Thanks for replying, it adds a little clarification, to what was going through your mind, and how it happened. One more thing (!BEER!). keep safe. Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #70 September 1, 2003 QuoteQuoteThat would be about it. Kind of like a truck compared to a sports car. Or maybe it felt like it was flying in molasses. So, knowing this do you still think it would be better to try and land a HP main that you have never been under. Or a low performance canopy that you have never been under? How about a guy with 40 jumps? But I don't have 40 jumps. I'd still stick the the main I could try out up high rather than the unknown reserve. I don't see a tiny reserve as necessarily being "low performance" - after all, speed depends primarily on WL (seems someone keeps preaching that message).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #71 September 2, 2003 QuoteBut I don't have 40 jumps. I'd still stick the the main I could try out up high rather than the unknown reserve. I don't see a tiny reserve as necessarily being "low performance" - after all, speed depends primarily on WL (seems someone keeps preaching that message). Go jump a reserve the same size as your main and then tell me this."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #72 September 2, 2003 QuoteQuoteBut I don't have 40 jumps. I'd still stick the the main I could try out up high rather than the unknown reserve. I don't see a tiny reserve as necessarily being "low performance" - after all, speed depends primarily on WL (seems someone keeps preaching that message). Go jump a reserve the same size as your main and then tell me this. Do they violate the laws of physics, then?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #73 September 2, 2003 QuoteDo they violate the laws of physics, then? Nope, but I would much rather have a person under a high wingload under a PD reserve than a Velocity. If you have flown the types of canopies that we are talking about then I think you would agree.... And if you have not, then you really don't know what you are talking about right? Where are your facts here? Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #74 September 2, 2003 QuoteQuoteDo they violate the laws of physics, then? Nope, but I would much rather have a person under a high wingload under a PD reserve than a Velocity. If you have flown the types of canopies that we are talking about then I think you would agree.... And if you have not, then you really don't know what you are talking about right? Where are your facts here? Ron Educate me - why does an X sq. ft. reserve fly slower than an X sq. ft. main at the same loading? Does it have a higher lift coefficient? If so, how do the designers manage that? If not, what is the secret of its slower speed?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #75 September 2, 2003 QuoteEducate me - why does an X sq. ft. reserve fly slower than an X sq. ft. main at the same loading? Does it have a higher lift coefficient? If so, how do the designers manage that? If not, what is the secret of its slower speed? Never said it was slower...I said it was less responsive. And a 7 cell F-111 with a low aspect ratio is less RESPONSIVE than a high aspect ratio Xbraced Zero P. Plus in this case the reserve was larger than the main by 17 square feet. So John, why don't you go jump a Velocity 96 and then a PD113 and you tell me what you would rather a guy with 40 jumps land. Since I have several hundred on a Velocity 96, and 6 on a PD113...(So, I have personal knowledge about both types of canopies)...I say I would rather put him out on a PD113 any day."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
