kallend 1,625 #76 September 2, 2003 QuoteQuoteEducate me - why does an X sq. ft. reserve fly slower than an X sq. ft. main at the same loading? Does it have a higher lift coefficient? If so, how do the designers manage that? If not, what is the secret of its slower speed? Never said it was slower...I said it was less responsive. The conversation went like this: Me: But I don't have 40 jumps. I'd still stick the the main I could try out up high rather than the unknown reserve. I don't see a tiny reserve as necessarily being "low performance" - after all, speed depends primarily on WL (seems someone keeps preaching that message). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You: Go jump a reserve the same size as your main and then tell me this. The word "responsive" isn't there, but "speed" is. Quote And a 7 cell F-111 with a low aspect ratio is less RESPONSIVE than a high aspect ratio Xbraced Zero P. Plus in this case the reserve was larger than the main by 17 square feet. So John, why don't you go jump a Velocity 96 and then a PD113 and you tell me what you would rather a guy with 40 jumps land. Since I have several hundred on a Velocity 96, and 6 on a PD113...(So, I have personal knowledge about both types of canopies)...I say I would rather put him out on a PD113 any day. Which case? Here is the original question that started this thread: Here is the question? If you do find yourself under a canopy you realize is way smaller than your used to, do you land it, or cut away? I don't see anything in there about a Velocity 96 or PD113, just that you have an unexpectedly small canopy above your head. Since it is postulated to be an unfamiliar rig, you may expect to get an unfamiliar and unknown reserve too. I doubt you will be equipped with a tape measure to determine the square footage of either. I see no reason to believe that things will improve by cutting away a perfectly good canopy. Seems like a toss-up to me.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #77 September 2, 2003 John....Like I said you have never jumped a reserve so you can't say which handles better...I have. Now do your home work and jump a reserve then you will have an idea. As it is you are talking with no idea."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #78 September 3, 2003 QuoteJohn....Like I said you have never jumped a reserve so you can't say which handles better...I have. Now do your home work and jump a reserve then you will have an idea. As it is you are talking with no idea. Define "better".... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #79 September 3, 2003 QuoteDefine "better". John I expected you to not play these stupid games. Fine we will call better as in a larger chance of a safe landing under the same sized reserve for a person with little experience. John...Until you go put a jump on reserve Im done with this with you.. You don't know, so you have no basis to make such a claim. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #80 September 3, 2003 QuoteQuoteDefine "better". John I expected you to not play these stupid games. Fine we will call better as in a larger chance of a safe landing under the same sized reserve for a person with little experience. John...Until you go put a jump on reserve Im done with this with you.. You don't know, so you have no basis to make such a claim. Ron What am I claiming? I asked you to explain why a reserve is slower than a main of the same size, and you changed the topic to responsiveness. I said that I would rather fly a known good main than a reseve of unknown size and type - and I would - that would be my decision. You started on about the reserve being a PD113, but that was not stated in the original premise of the thread. The premise is that we don't have a clue about what's in the rig. You have assumed that the reserve is larger than the main, but that isn't part of the original premise either. You seem to assume that everyone knows that a 113 is the smallest reserve PD makes, but I seriously doubt that the majority of skydivers have internalized that information. It is within the parameters of the original question that you expect a Sabre 190, that you look up and see a SabreII 135, and the reserve is a Raven 109.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #81 September 3, 2003 QuoteWhat am I claiming? I asked you to explain why a reserve is slower than a main of the same size, and you changed the topic to responsiveness. slower in the way it responds to input....But that was not good enough for you. QuoteI said that I would rather fly a known good main than a reseve of unknown size and type - and I would - that would be my decision. And since you don't have the experience of a reserve ride you only know one answer. QuoteYou started on about the reserve being a PD113, but that was not stated in the original premise of the thread. no I started by saying that a reserve is much safer to land than a Velocity 96....Or to be honest any size Velocity. QuoteYou seem to assume that everyone knows that a 113 is the smallest reserve PD makes, but I seriously doubt that the majority of skydivers have internalized that information. Well there is a 90 that they don't sell and a 106 that they do sell. But I don't know of a comercial reserve smaller than a 96. And any reserve will fly less responsive than a Velocity or Stiletto. But you don't know that. QuoteIt is within the parameters of the original question that you expect a Sabre 190, that you look up and see a SabreII 135, and the reserve is a Raven 109. And the Raven would still be easier to land for a guy with 40 jumps."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #82 September 3, 2003 QuoteQuoteWhat am I claiming? I asked you to explain why a reserve is slower than a main of the same size, and you changed the topic to responsiveness. slower in the way it responds to input....But that was not good enough for you. QuoteI said that I would rather fly a known good main than a reseve of unknown size and type - and I would - that would be my decision. And since you don't have the experience of a reserve ride you only know one answer. QuoteYou started on about the reserve being a PD113, but that was not stated in the original premise of the thread. no I started by saying that a reserve is much safer to land than a Velocity 96....Or to be honest any size Velocity. QuoteYou seem to assume that everyone knows that a 113 is the smallest reserve PD makes, but I seriously doubt that the majority of skydivers have internalized that information. Well there is a 90 that they don't sell and a 106 that they do sell. But I don't know of a comercial reserve smaller than a 96. And any reserve will fly less responsive than a Velocity or Stiletto. But you don't know that. QuoteIt is within the parameters of the original question that you expect a Sabre 190, that you look up and see a SabreII 135, and the reserve is a Raven 109. And the Raven would still be easier to land for a guy with 40 jumps. I had already landed a Stiletto when I had 40 jumps. And since the question asked was: "If YOU do find YOURSELF under a canopy you realize is way smaller than your used to, do you land it, or cut away?" I think my answer is quite reasonable for ME.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
