packing

[jumpjunkie 0]

I just finished reading a thread on another forum about packing and packing errors. It brought back to my attention a question that I have had for a while. I have been to several large DZs where packers are employed. And at these DZs there seems to be a lack of knowledge by low time jumpers on how to pack. They rely solely on packers to have their rigs packed. Now I will admit that I learned how to jump at a small DZ where if there was situations where we could not jump we packed, or learned to pack. But the intructors and riggers were the ones doing the instructionals and demonstrations. My question is: Why do students at big DZs not learn to pack until they pay more money to have someone teach them how to pack? Why is it not part of the training in learning how to skydive?

Tubing, so easy a caveman can do it.

[AggieDave 6]

Why do large DZs charge $200+ for tandems and a lot of smaller ones charge $150 -ish?

Same reason, because they can.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[jumpjunkie 0]

But the money doesn't go to the DZ, it goes to the person holding the class. Does your DZ integrate packing into the training program or is it just another charge to the student?

Tubing, so easy a caveman can do it.

[PhreeZone 15]

We do it for free when ever we see a student graduate student status and keep jumping. A jumper or staff teaches them to flat pack al lthe student stuff then when they get ZP we teach them to PRO pack

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[billvon 2,435]

>Why do students at big DZs not learn to pack until they pay more
> money to have someone teach them how to pack?

Because people are lazy. At many DZ's, packing is part of the program but you can put it off essentially forever with a clever series of excuses. When forced to do it to get that requirement signed off, you can learn a bare minimum of packing skills, then go back to getting your rig packed.

Most people don't like to pack. Many people nowadays would rather pay a packer than pack themselves.

As to why people are charged money - if someone expects a service rendered, and wants requirement X signed off by a certain time, then generally they will pay for it. If someone wants to learn and is willing to hang around until a rigger or instructor has time, and is willing to reciprocate (i.e. help him close up, or lay out rigs for him) he will get that training for free.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I was surprised to find out that my DZ didn't offer any formal packing instructions. But one of the part-time packers offers his own mini-packing course (at $15/hour) out of his basement. So I went over one night and spent a couple of hours learning how to pack. Then to get my sign off, I had to go to the DZ on a weekday (weekends were just too hectic) and the head packer monitored me as I packed two jumps (the 1st being just a normal pack job, then 2nd one, the packer twisted up the lines to see if I knew how to untwist everything). This wasn't the most ideal packing instructional environment, but I would like to add that now that I own my own rig, I have packed every one of my jumps (18 to date on my new rig) and we're dealing with a brand new ZP canopy here (a Triathlon which is easier to pack than some others).

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[annaandbob 0]

I think it should be included in the initial training cost of the AFF program. Any student at our dropzone will not have to pay extra..............

[Nick 0]

I learnt to pack at my DZ pretty much from the start. The weather was bad on my 2nd trip there so I was told "right your going to learn to pack", after that day I'd jumped once and packed (under full supervision) twice. After that I had to pack every canopy I jumped.

A good thing I was taught was that a skydive isn't over until you've packed, now don't expect to find packers at every DZ, but if I do it's a bonus.

Nick
Gravity- It's not just a good idea, it's the LAW!

[CanuckInUSA 0]

One other thing that forced me to become someone who packs after their own jumps was the first time I jumped my rig I was attending a small boogie. There was only one packer on hand and if I wanted to make the next load, I couldn't wait for him to finish the 1/2 dozen or so rigs he was packing at any given moment. I had to do it myself. And it was that weekend that I realized that I could do it and the rest is history. Unless I have two rigs (which I don't have) and I'm trying to make back-to-back loads, there's no reason for me to hire a packer. I can do it myself.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[christoofar 0]

I always pack when I'm not in much physical pain to do it. When my back is very sore or my shoulder hurts real bad I will pay a packer to do it, but that is rare now that I found a better Rx

____________________________________________________________
I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle.

[pilotdave 0]

I was kind of surprised at what I saw at a DZ last weekend. It was too windy to jump, so I suggested to a couple of recent AFF graduates that they could learn to pack. They asked one instructor who told them one particular rigger usually teaches packing, and he has a class tomorrow. I have no problem with an instructor not wanting to spend a day teaching students to pack (it's not his job), but I was pretty disappointed that a packing class was his only suggestion (they couldn't stay overnight for it eiher). Being a low timer, I wouldn't be comfortable teaching someone how to pack, but I don't think it requires a very experienced rigger either. Personally I payed $50 to learn to pack and I don't think I got any more out of it than if I had learned from another jumper. It just would have been nice to see someone volunteer to teach them on a windy day. With all those skydivers just standing around including a lot of AFF grads, I think a windy day should turn into a safety day type of thing.

Dave

[Casch 0]

I didn't have any of these problems. Actually people offered to teach me to pack, and random people were always looking over my shoulder to lend a hand. No one asked for money and they all seemed more than happy to help a student out. In fact from time to time my DZO will give me a tip. We have to flat pack the student chutes and half the time some random person will come over and help me flake the canopy (it takes some long arms to flake those skymaster 290's) I only have 21 jumps, but I have jumped about 11 of my own pack jobs.

[ChileRelleno 0]

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now don't expect to find packers at every DZ, but if I do it's a bonus.

Bonus? Pay somebody $5.00 for 5/10 minutes of work? No thanks thats about 2 jumps per day, a real nice dinner or a case of beer (real beer).

ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414
Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868

[masher 1]

Do you have to be able to pack your own main to get your A's?

I've been (flat) packing my student rig since about my 7th jump (under supervision) and I can practically do all of it myself now.

What packer ratings do you people have? Over here, once you've got your A licence, you're able to pack a main for yourself, or another licenced skydiver. You can get your Packer B rating which allows you to pack student rigs, Packer A is so you can pack reserves, and Rigger is a rigger.

I don't know when you're allowed to teach people to pack, I'm guessing packer B. As for the full priveleges, I don't know off hand.

All I know is that why should I pay someone to pack if I can do it myself. At least everything is your fault then...

--
Arching is overrated - Marlies

[wilmshurst 0]

"All I know is that why should I pay someone to pack if I can do it myself."

I find packing expends at least as much energy as jumping. That is not a big issue at a small DZ where you may make 3-4 sport jumps a day. However, at a large, turbine DZ, packing 6-8+ mains on top of the jumps would, I imagine, be very tiring. Having someone pack for you just makes the day so much more mellow and enjoyable and you don't feel totally washed out when the beer light comes on.

"Don't just stand there...go berserk!!!".

The only thing worse than a cold toilet seat is a warm toilet seat.

[indyz 1]

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What packer ratings do you people have?

In the US there really isn't a packer rating. Mains can be packed by the parachutist who will be using it next, a rigger, or a person under the supervision of a rigger. Reserves must be packed by a rigger.

[faulknerwn 37]

I've always wondered at all the people who view packing as such a chore. All I can figure is that most of them never learned how to pack themselves well - i.e. they know the basics, but it takes a hundred pack jobs or so before you understand the "tricks" and such to make it easy. I've done 8+ CRW jumps in a day and packed every one of them. Packing is quite easy once you're practiced at it.

Of course I got most of my packing learning done on student status. It was not even 10 years ago but I had to pack probably 90% of my student gear. It was expected then.

People not packing for themselves I think is one of the biggest reasons we see gear issues. Twisted brake lines can cause off-heading and spinning mals. You can have small holes in your top-skin and never notice. If you don't pack for yourself, how often do you check your links and lines for wear? When you pack for yourself, you do it at least casually on every single pack job. Many packers don't take or have the time.

If you don't pack for yourself, will you notice how your closing loop can be really tight or really loose depending on the humidity of the day? Or as your canopy ages a little and packs a bit smaller, does the packer always shorten it?

Its the little things that often get overlooked by people who don't pack for themselves. And the little things can often turn into big things really rapidly.

I'll use a packer if I'm really busy or its late and I'm tired, but I pack for myself because I check all of those things. And if you use a packer, I'd advise doing thorough checks of your gear on a very regular basis.

W

W

[AggieDave 6]

I'm a packer, when I'm packing for someone, I'll untwist their brake lines if they're bad, I'll shorten their closing loop if it needs it, I also keep an eye out for wear on a canopy/damage/etc. If I find something wrong, I put the canopy down and get the owner. I also check rapid links for tightness or turn the slinks back into place if they become turned (tabs sticking out of the risers).

All in all it only takes an extra minute while packing to keep an eye out for trouble, etc. The only thing that takes longer is if their brake lines are really twisted and I fix them. If they are begining to twist but aren't bad, I'll tell the owner so he/she can fix it before they bring it back for the next pack job.

All it takes is a little bit of pride in your work, as a packer and people notice and you get more work and more $$. Atleast it makes sense to me.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[faulknerwn 37]

That doesn't seem to be the rule though. Lots of big drop zones have packing concessions, where you're usually not sure who's going to be packing for you. Lots of packers - especially at big busy dzs - are doing frigging fast pack jobs and a ton of them. There just isn't time for that. I've seen team packers have to pack 4 rigs in 15 minutes or so - a lot of stuff can get overlooked.

That's great that you do all that. I hope that all the people you pack for know how to do it for themselves as well though - I'm amazed at the number of people out there don't. When they go to a big boogie like the WFFC and just give their rig to a packing concession which has 20 or more packers and everything is crazy, they need to know how to check things themselves. Because they can't count on the random person who's packing it to do any of that.

I've seen people who've had rigs packed by packers at boogies like that come home with a couple different sized rubber bands and even a tube stow on their rig - all mismatched stuff added by packers. I remember having a packer pack my CRW rig once - he commented on the really loose closing loop which I thought was bizarre because it was normally tight. I found that the pin barely stayed in - turns out he had gotten all of the air out of the canopy and so it was really loose! I've always just packed it up and didn't bother squishing too much and its a very tight loop when I do it. Packing styles can affect things as well.

And if you have an "unusual" rig - like a pullout for example - between me and a good friend of mine I've seen rigs handed back by packers (usually at boogies admittedly) 5-6 times where our pullouts were misrouted. I do a very thorough gear check when I get gear from packers.


So while there are very conscientous, thorough packers out there like AggieDave, there are also a lot of ones who will pack you a good opening, but not really do much else. People should never rely on their packers to check that their gear is in good shape. If you use packers all the time, you need to make sure you make an effort at least once a weekend to inspect everything. When packers are doing 10-15 rigs an hour, they might miss something.

[AggieDave 6]

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I've seen team packers have to pack 4 rigs in 15 minutes or so - a lot of stuff can get overlooked.

Damn. And here I am doing a lowly 7-8 minute pack job on sport rigs. I've got to wonder how good of a pack job that produces and what that packer's malfunction rate is. I've only got about 150 tandem pack jobs, but I have I think around 800 sport rig pack jobs or so and no malfunctions (knock on wood).

What have you seen before Wendy?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[faulknerwn 37]

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I've only got about 150 tandem pack jobs, but I have I think around 800 sport rig pack jobs or so and no malfunctions (knock on wood).

What have you seen before Wendy?

I don't know any particular numbers. Of the mals I've witnessed, I'd guess its 50-50 between packers and the jumper who packed it. Of my 4, 3 were my own pack jobs and one was just another jumper's. The question would then become what percentage of people pack for themselves? I don't know.

I'd go out and say that probably 90% of the spinning mals aren't packer error but pilot error in the sky. Especially with everyone going elliptical at such low jump numbers. There's a reason why people with 5000 jumps have a much lower mal rate than those with 300 jumps - and that's irregardless of who packs for them.

Another good portion of mals are gear problems - broken lines, brakes unstowing sending you into line twists, pc-in-tows from old pc's - most (not all for sure) of these can be prevented by better gear maintenance and inspection. And that's ultimately the jumper's responsibility even if he does a packer looking out for him.

Then there are the actual packing ones - line-overs(most of em anyway), pc-in-tows from closing loops/bridle routing, totals, misrouted puds, unstowed brakes, hard openings caused by packing. These are the only ones I'd actually blame the packers for. The others the packers can't be held responsible for.

[Kris 0]

I usually pack for myself unless I am doing a lot of student loads or am doing more than 5 or 6 jumps in a day. Even then, I only use packers for 1 or 2 of them. I can usually get my Stiletto bagged in 7-8 minutes from the time I set the brakes to the time I finish stuffing the PC into the pouch. That's Psycho-packing a Stiletto 190 into a d-bag designed to hold a 170 ZP canopy pretty tight.

I think that there are some people who are entirely too dependant upon packers. One individual in particular packs maybe one out of every 100 jumps themselves, the other 99 they use packers. They have been doing this since right off of student status.

That kind of inexperience, not to mention the unwillingness to get to know their canopy better, is really going to bite that person on the ass someday.

As for teaching, I never charge my students. I am very thorough, and we don't quit until they bag something I would let my mom jump. I Psycho-pack, but I teach students how to PRO-pack. I prefer they learn to finesse their canopies with PRO first before learning how to sling the canopy 180 to the ground and adding the extra steps that Psycho-packing takes.

Kris

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[Ducky 0]

My DZ usually charges for a packing class. Primarily because it is done after hours. They employ staff packers who don'y get paid for staying late or teaching so the employee gets the $$$. I have 65 jumps and couldn't pack now if I had to. I packed my own for jumps 16-18 and not again since.

Why can I not pack? Simple I just recently got my own rig (4 jumps ago) and I didn't want to bother learning on another system or canopy only to relearn on my own gear. Secondly my DZ charges per jump for gear rental which includes $5 built in for pack jobs. If you have a staff packer pack for you it's included in the rental. Even if you pack on your own the price is still the same.

Furthermore you are not allowed to pack rental gear for the final pack job of the day, which is an excellent idea if you ask me. I'd hate to know someone with 15 jumps gettin checked off for their A-lic. last packed the rig I was jumping before puttin it on the rental rack.


kwak

Sometimes your the bug, sometimes your the windshield. Sometimes your the hammer sometimes your the nail. Question is Hun, Do you wanna get hammered or do you wanna get nailed?????

[Skyrose7 0]

my dzo taught me to pack and did told me whenever I wanted to come out (and this was during the winter) he would teach me. I thought that was pretty cool. oh, and it was free.

now, I am a packer, and I am totally thorough. I can't imagine taking the risk of not being thorough when you are packing for someone else. I see it happen though.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The mind is like a parachute--it works better when it is open. JUMP.
MaryRose

[somethinelse 0]

...and WHERE exactly IS "YOUR" DZ? Please...?