narcimund 0 #1 June 10, 2003 Many DZs have 10- or 20-page waivers with scores of paragraphs written in technical legal language. Do you read to comprehension every single line or do you just get the general idea and sign it? Discussion items: Do you think lengthy waivers in general get read and understood COMPLETELY by tandem students? Do you think jumpers who travel to lots of DZs are likely to read every waiver? Do you start reading carefully on page one then lose concentration before you finish? Note that I am NOT asking whether or not someone who signs a waiver without reading it should be held to its conditions later. That is a DIFFERENT question. First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bwilling 0 #2 June 10, 2003 Quotejust get the general idea It probably says... 1) skydiving is dangerous (doh!) 2) you could die (no shit?) 3) No, you can't sue us if you do! That's my guess! edited to add that yes, I do skim them over before I sign them, but no I don't read every line... "If all you ever do is all you ever did, then all you'll ever get is all you ever got." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #3 June 10, 2003 Well, I never signed a waiver for my first jump (it was military), and I had about 150 jumps before I ever jumped at a civilian DZ, so I chose the last choice. Especially now, since I'm 1/7th of a DZO, I pretty much know what is going to be in a waiver, and anything that seems extra or strange will jump out at me, and I'll skim that paragraph. Here in NM, waivers are not necessarily binding, either, according to some recent court decisions. Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #4 June 10, 2003 I read the original waiver thoroughly, to comprehension, as you said. It was very long, tedious, and legaleze-ish, but I read it. And I asked several questions about it, too. When I went over to Elsinore for the first time, I read it there, albeit less thoroughly, but still quite well. I didn't need to ask any questions about it though. Do I think they are generally read? Prolly not. Do I think traveling jumpers read them? Again, prolly not. As to losing concentration, I didn't, but I don't know about anyone else. Ciels- Michele Edited for spelling ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #5 June 10, 2003 My first waver I read very thoroughly. Every waiver at my home DZ since then, I skim over. However, when I travel to another DZ, I read their waiver just as thoroughly as my first one. I want to know what is on it and if there is anything different from my home DZ's waiver. I've never lost concentration when reading a waiver. It is boring, I will admit, but it is something that I (or my family) will be held to legally and it directly affects me.Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #6 June 10, 2003 Good idea to start another thread! Alrighty, like I said in the incidients forum, a waiver that is purposely long to cause people to skim it, would probably be torn apart by a sharp lawyer in court. I'm very fond of the RWS Tandem waiver. It is 2 pages AND you have to watch a video before you fill it out. The video is about tandem jumping, BUT the first half talks specifically about the waiver and the sort of injuries that can happen (even when everything goes right). Infact, Bill Booth specifically states to post pone your jump and talk to you lawyer about it, if you have any questions or concerns about the waiver.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkvapor 0 #7 June 10, 2003 First waiver I skimmed it all. Second, just saw what the paragraphs were about. Subsequent, signed and initialed everywhere without reading. If I don't agree with the waiver, the only choice I have is to not jump. At familiar dropzones, honestly, I am just going to sign just about anything. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #8 June 10, 2003 Prodded, asked questions and disected the first waiver(Tandem) Waivers after that...you get the jist of what the paragraphs are about...If you trust the DZ and the staff...just sign it.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #9 June 10, 2003 2 and a half minutes... all the time it takes me to fill out almost any waiver thats just asking for initals anymore. I spend more time filling out my reserve repack and USPA info then reading I think. Aerohio has one that has you copy paragraphs so that one took longer but the general idea is the same on them all. You could die, you can't sue us, if you sue you agree to pay the damages and legal fees. Ok.. no problem, I've filled out about 20 of those things in 3 years, you'd think I'd have the point by now.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #10 June 10, 2003 It's amazing what you will find in some waivers... I have seen a waiver (for a specific event) that said they owned the rights to any video or photos taken at the event... I lined through that part. JoshAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #11 June 10, 2003 That's basically it, you can sign the thing or hit the road. Perris has a video of their lawyer telling you how totally screwed you are if you ever try to sue, Videos are a good idea, the attention span comprehends them better. What are you going to do anyway, bring your own lawyer with you to argue with the DZO ? Actually, sections of a waiver can be disputed in court if they're construed to not be in the public's best interest, but better not to even go there. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ickleFish 0 #12 June 10, 2003 Well I've only done one (tandem) jump, but I just skimmed it over....I basically just accepted that if I get hurt, injured, killed.....it's probably going to be my fault anyway. I knew the people I was jumping with weren't going to do anything on purpose to make something go wrong, so I was happy with that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkvapor 0 #13 June 10, 2003 QuoteI basically just accepted that if I get hurt, injured, killed.....it's probably going to be my fault anyway. But a more important part of the waiver is that the DZ is not liable for negligence either. So not only is it your fault if YOU hurt yourself, but also if you are injured as a result of an action (or lack of it) by the DZ. If you are at reputable DZ, then you have nothing to worry about. edited: fixed typo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,121 #14 June 10, 2003 My first jump was in the 70's; waivers were a page or less then. Yup, I read that puppy. I tend to read at least enough of each and every paragraph to know what it's saying. Of course, I read the whole waiver to my dad when he made his tandem; it's long, but it's his right to know what's in it, and he can't see well enough to decide how much read of each paragraph. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #15 June 10, 2003 I read fast enough (to comprehension) that i go thru every sentence and make sure there isnt anything that seems really out of sync to me. Now if i'm just signing the same waiver i read last year well.... i prefer the short and to the point waivers i've encountered, but they seem few and far between, the unfortunate effect of an overly litigious society..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EvilSteve 0 #16 June 10, 2003 On every waiver I've had to fill out for skydiving, I never bothered to read it beyond the level needed to look for the one initial/circle this spot that usually seems to be in there. The gist is obvious enough for me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #17 June 10, 2003 Didn't have a wavier for my first two first jumps, two civilian schools. 1978 and 1980. I skim them for silly things. TerryI'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jib 0 #18 June 10, 2003 QuoteI'm very fond of the RWS Tandem waiver. It is 2 pages AND you have to watch a video before you fill it out. The video is about tandem jumping, BUT the first half talks specifically about the waiver and the sort of injuries that can happen (even when everything goes right). Infact, Bill Booth specifically states to post pone your jump and talk to you lawyer about it, if you have any questions or concerns about the waiver. I also like the ambulance and there never will be a perfect canopy, etc. to emphasize the point. I skimmed my first waiver and then read it at least once before I signed it. I've seen people just sign where it says to sign and hand the sheet back too. I don't know if many people understand the legal nuances of the form completely, but if one can't understand that words you could die repeated over and over in different ways along with and when you do you can't sue us, then perhaps, one lacks the mental capacity to be signing in the first place. I think licensed jumpers don't bother to read them completely at other dropzones because they don't expect to read anything new and many wouldn't sue even if they could. -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andy2 0 #19 June 10, 2003 why do you have to read the waiver? The waiver is for the DZ, not you. IMO if youre not aware of the risks and think that if something happens to you while skydiving then you should sue the DZ, you have no right to be skydiving at all anyways. Waivers are for DZs to cover their asses, not to inform us about skydiving. Thats what instructors are for. Just my opinion. --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beavdog 0 #20 June 10, 2003 You have to watch out for things that DZ stick in their waivers to trick people. SDAZ had the last line of their waiver ask if you wanted to purchase a copy of the waiver for like $350. It then said you didnt have to initial that line. I'm pretty sure that was put in just to trick people. Here's to the Breezes that blows through the Trezzez..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EricaH 0 #21 June 10, 2003 I work w/ enough legal mumbojumbo that skimming is reading to me. It is funny what you catch that's different. @ Sebastian, you can purchase the right to sue them for $500 or something like that. I just asked how to not pay any $$ if I promised not to sue & filled it out that way. I also cross through any rights to my video being given... i'd like to know what they are going to use my image for on a per use basis. Guess that's the legal side of me coming out though. Can't wait to get out of this profession!! Most have the same premise, thought the Perris lawyer video saying that "basically; if you slip on a bannana peal on the dz - it is skydiving related & you will not be able to sue" was fairly amusing. but I do hate it when they make you copy a paragraph & read it infront of a camera. Can I have the rights to that video I wonder? There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear. PMS #227 (just like the TV show) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
betzilla 56 #22 June 10, 2003 The first waiver I ever filled out scared the bejeezus out of me. Now I get butterflies, but I enjoy them, because I know if I'm signing one, I'm about to jump. WooHOO! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #23 June 10, 2003 QuoteYou have to watch out for things that DZ stick in their waivers to trick people. SDAZ had the last line of their waiver ask if you wanted to purchase a copy of the waiver for like $350. It then said you didnt have to initial that line. I'm pretty sure that was put in just to trick people. uh no.. that allows you to "buy back" your waiver of responsibility. You still have to sign the paper work to show you understand the risks. The dropzone just has enough faith in their instructors and systems to take your extra money if you feel you might need to sue afterwards.. maybe B2 can get someone from SDAZ to explain it better, i dont think i did it that well____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
indyz 1 #24 June 10, 2003 Quotewhy do you have to read the waiver? The waiver is for the DZ, not you. IMO if youre not aware of the risks and think that if something happens to you while skydiving then you should sue the DZ, you have no right to be skydiving at all anyways. Waivers are for DZs to cover their asses, not to inform us about skydiving. Thats what instructors are for. Just my opinion. Take a look at what jdhill wrote above. A DZ can put anything they want in the waiver. They could add a line that says, "After you jump, you must sign the deed to your house over to the DZO," or anything else that they wanted. Most DZs probably wouldn't be so unscrupulous as to try something like that, but you never know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallinWoman 1 #25 June 10, 2003 I will not put my signature or initials on any legal document that I have not throughly read. I don't trust any legal document...so I read every word... You should have seen the closing on my house...I was annoying everyone there with all my questions. ~Anne I'm a Doll!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
