So . . . what do you do?

[hookitt 0]

Is he going to possibly kill me? Let him boot my ass. There are other Drop Zones in my area.

I've already taken that chance for other reasons, and was certain the DZO would boot me. I was so convinced that I was packing up my stuff. He didn't boot me. Granted he's not the most powerful person in skydiving but he was the DZO. HE came too and asked me to stay. It was very amicable.

The Seat belt thing is hard to phathom but I'll go along with it. Being that I can back myself up should the need arise, then I'd have to take the chance.

Heck the news would make it to dz.com and parachutist and Skydiving magazine, so at least I'd be famous for about 5 minutes for bringing it up.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Jessica 0]

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Now, I'll be the first to admit that if I saw a newbie doing this I wouldn't hesitate for a second to point it out and maybe demand some change of action, but Jumpin' Joe? I mean, he's an icon in the sport! Been to hell and back and clearly knows what he's doing -- right?

I'd assume he's just forgotten to take his seatbelt off and get his attention and point to it. I do that all the time with untied shoelaces and whatnot.

If he refused for some bizzare reason, I dunno. I'd probably get the attention of the ranking jumper (besides Joe) on the load.

Skydiving is for cool people only

[quade 3]

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I'd assume he's just forgotten to take his seatbelt off and get his attention and point to it. I do that all the time with untied shoelaces and whatnot.

Hopefully, that's what we all would do -- initially.

Quote

If he refused for some bizzare reason, I dunno. I'd probably get the attention of the ranking jumper (besides Joe) on the load.

It get's odd at that point. That's why I think this discussion is good.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[groovychic 0]

definitly ask, maybe it just needs to be brought to his attention. Complancy is a big enemy of skydivers. I would definitly approach the situation though, it might save his life.

[Deuce 1]

Well, you live in Giant Turbine land. Yeah, it's pretty easy to get by somebody in an Otter door. So, we get back to that deal of having to readjust your worldview of Joe, and you have to take him down a few pegs, and maybe he's not really awesome but lucky. And lucky not to have hurt anybody else.

As a KingAir camera guy I'm usually sitting in the door. However, if we've got somebody stuck in it, there's no way around them, like there probably would be in the Van, an Otter, or a Casa.

It's an interesting scenario question. It reminds me of the stuff we'd come up with to find out when a police applicant would choose to shoot. The correct answer in this case may not be a specific set of facts, but the intersection of the arc of danger and the arc of peer pressure. When Joe is endangering others, at that point I would take action. Up to that point I would just watch and learn. As soon as I was ready to fight over the issue, I'd speak up, very, very nicely. Usually that would resolve the issue, but if it didn't I'd already made up my mind that it was something I was willing to lay hands on over.

Gosh, I've had a ton of police flash-back stuff lately. That's one of those "Don't draw your pistol unless you're ready to shoot" things.

It sounds like it might be one of those "Huh, I love it here, but I need to find me a new home DZ" things.

It is a matter of danger, or a matter of principle?

Edit: I read Jan's article and I'm happy to say that the coolest people on my DZ are safety people. They empowered me to hold up a Roger Ponce load to do a full gear check on a student who ran out to board the Van without her chest strap fastened. Folks like Keith Wyatt, Tim Mattsen (Sorry about the spelling Tim) Chris DeBar "Check your shit yo!", Evan Mortimore, Vic and Connie Krusi. And more.

A Skygod with the kind of "cool" in Jan's article can undo an awful lot of good. Having made my mind up that it was something worth changing DZ's over, I'd ask the Skygod if he knew he was demonstrating poor practices that new jumpers would emulate. If he didn't care, I'd pack up and leave.

[QuickDraw 0]

I answered "Ask him why he's doing it that way."

I probaly wouldn't say anything in reality though (time served issue),
but if i did have influence, i would probably use the "you are setting a bad example to the students" type theme.

-- Hope you don't die. --

I'm fucking winning

[quade 3]

Again, as far as this discussion is concerned it's all hypothetical and there's no need for anyone to find a new drop zone! (Holy crap!)

As for taking Jumpin' Joe down a peg in anyone's opinion, that's also not really relevant.

The real questions are can YOU deal with the situation, because it -will- eventually come up, and how -do- you go about it?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rgoper 0]

i'd make a simple inquiry of why he is doing it this way, or that way. the response would dictate the rest of my reaction(s) generally, if it doesn't affect my safety i really don't care what most sky divers do. if i see someone violate the general rules more than most, i just avoid the loads they're on.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[rhino 0]

Walk up behind him. Bitch slap him in the back of the grape and say WHAT IN THE HELL ARE YOU DOING!!!??? lol

[Deuce 1]

Quote

Again, as far as this discussion is concerned it's all hypothetical and there's no need for anyone to find a new drop zone! (Holy crap!)

As for taking Jumpin' Joe down a peg in anyone's opinion, that's also not really relevant.

The real questions are can YOU deal with the situation, because it -will- eventually come up, and how -do- you go about it?

Hey, I'm only hypothetically changing hypothetical drop zones!

Great thread! Got me and some other folks thinking. I liked Jan's article too, it's got me wondering how I can have managed to be both cool and an outcast at the same time

Edit: I meant to express how it is difficult to take somebody down a peg or two in one's own estimation. Kind of like the trauma I would suffer if you got a Velocity 79 and took up multi-camera pond swooping on ecstasy.

[quade 3]

Oh, but Jumpin' Joe has 21 inch guns.

He can clearly kick my ass.

I think we're going to need a slightly more diplomatic approach here.
Actually, we'd need a slightly more diplomatic approach in just about any case.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[skybytch 259]

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Let's say he has decided to keep his seat belt on and he's sitting right by the door.

Might also add that he survived a major plane crash in the same type of aircraft in the past. Many of his friends and a teammate may have survived this crash had everyone on the load been wearing a seatbelt. This may well have affected his choice to wear his seatbelt when most of us would choose to take it off.

Once we're over a grand my seatbelt comes off whether the door is open or not. Besides the risk of a canopy deploying out the door and the jumper staying with the plane if they're wearing the belt, having the belt off makes for a faster exit in case of emergency.

I'd straight up ask him why. I'm sure he has a good reason.

[Michele 1]

I have, quade, asked a far more senior jumper than me (with medals and such) why he did something the way he did. I asked him politely, in the plane, why XX when YY was what I was taught.

His answer? "Good question. I didn't realize".

I've pointed out loose chest straps to senior people, and, even though they knew about it, they thanked me for looking at them.

My problem (or my benefit) is that I don't actually recognize a lot of people in this sport yet; I don't get intimated by their accomplishments or what they are supposed to know. Heck, I didn't know who Clint Clawson was until my third jump with him (just that he was wayyyy cool and had a great smile) and didn't really understand what he'd accomplished until I took my canopy stuff with him, a year and change after starting jumping.

The key, I think, is not saying "hey, fuckwad, you've left your seatbelt on, dimwit", but rather nudging/pointing, and doing it discreetly because if it's an accident/overssight, whomever it is (big, little, famous, infamous) doesn't need public embarassment or humiliation...and if they want to make an issue of it, that's their option, and makes them look more like an ass than me.

As long as it's approached from a perspective of potentially an accident by the doer, this allows them saving grace possibilities. If it is approached with an "I know better than YOU, all the time, all day long, you're such a numbnuts", then yeah, there's going to be defensive posturing going on.

And yes, I've done as I've "preached", and learned a thing or two in the process. And so did the other jumper.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[katecooper 0]

So, I was on this big way camp a few days ago and I notice that one of my campers has his wrist mount altimeter on his right hand. That's right, gentle readers, the right hand.

hmmm, think I.

I ask him why he's jumping it that way.

"I'm left handed, and it's the way I made my first jump, with it on my right hand" (camper has 700+ jumps).

I ask him if I can share my concerns with him. He says yes. I point out the unlikely, but possible change of his pilotchute bridle half hitching around his right hand during a deployment and not being able to come free due to the altimeter mount. He acknowledged the possibility, and said that he would seriously consider changing his altimeter placement.

My job there was done, but obviously, this did/does not affect the safety of others, just the safety of one D-licensed "expert" skydiver.

In the hypothetical situation that Quade was bringing up, I'd ask again what the reason for keeping the belt on was and listen to the answer. I've learned things that way. If the answer didn't have a better chance of saving my life than either releasing the seat belt or closing the door, I'd share that. He might learn things that way.

Quade--I thought you were talking about me--I demoed a Velocity at a 2:1 wingloading this weekend with less than stellar results (although the results improved dramatically when the load I was on landed upwind). Cool canopy, but it's not going to replace my Sabre2!

We are all learning. May we never stop.

blues
k8

[hookitt 0]

Why doesn't this person take his off after a certain altitude also? At a certain altitude you can get out of the plane.

I answered your question as if it was a DZ I frequent. If it's in Perris, Well perhaps your right I may be a bit more reserved. However I'd still ask straight up why he has it on after a certain altitude? Even if it's who I think it is.

If the door is open, I think it's unwise, and would truly want an explanation. If it's closed, I could care less. Heck the pilot would love it if every on had the belt on untill jump run. The sittin near the door thing with it open would still bug me.

He's been in a crash and I haven't. I've been upside down before though. If every one is belted in, getting upright is much easier on the pilot. However if your going upside down near an open door there's a good chance you'll dangle from the belt your using to try and save your life.

I'll retract my statement about closing the door though I'd ask for his time when on the ground. If it were the DZ i jump at, I can do what I want. but in PerrisI have no authority. I'm still very diplomatic in a case like this and attempting to over ride this persons authority would prove to just get me booted. I'd prefer that didn't happen.

Still, if I think this person is creating a situation that potentially make it so I wouldnt see tomorrow and friends and family would be moarning my loss and those others who died with me... I'd do what I could.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[ltdiver 3]

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The real questions are can YOU deal with the situation, because it -will- eventually come up, and how -do- you go about it?

On the seatbelt issue (even though hypothetical here), I have encountered this issue in just the past few weeks now that the weather is hotter than hell.

Here's what I did (sitting in the left hand bulkhead seat).

1) Tandem Instructor and student at the left bench right at the door. BEFORE take-off I asked the tandem instructor what he wanted to do about the seatbelt vs open door issue. It was his call. He unseatbelted himself but kept the student (right by the door) in his seatbelt. Student did not have a rig on, so in my eyes this seems like a plausible solution.

2) Skygod (and friend) on the rear bench beside me. I asked that he unclip his seatbelt before I would open the door. He looked at me funny but complied without any issue.

3) Old time skydiver (and one with thousands of jumps on all kinds of equipment over the years). He would not take his seatbelt off when I asked politely. I started to close the door and he shrugged and complied.

If there is a possiblity of harming other people, I will be direct and take action to keep those around me safe. If he/she makes an issue of it I will ask for an explanation, even if it's in the plane.

If it is only endangering the perpetrator, I will choose an individual time with the offender and ask why in an effort to learn from someone more experienced than me. I may not agree or accept the explanation, but it's their call if they are an experienced skygod.

If it is a newbie, or someone who I know just does not think things through, the best senario is to find back up for the issue and teach. There have been those let go from the DZ I frequent because of their non-compliance with safety issues. Other surrounding DZ's are notified as well. Perhaps they'll learn.

If it's the DZO or someone else in authority who endangers others (not just themselves) then there are other avenues of 'education' available to us.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[Unstable 8]

Please note before i offer my .02, I am not in a situation where i have been jumping for years on end, i am still a student of the sport, with less than 200 jumps. Take what i say with a grain of salt.....

In this situation, I would be temped to stick to the word - DZ regulations. If i come across as Advisory or even as a superior, i may in fact put more tension into the situation than is necessary to solve the problem. Maybe i would say something to the effect of "Thats kind of an interesting practice you have there, where did you pick it up" or maybe "what advantages does that practice have". That would open the door to a more direct statement like "I was taught that that was against DZ policy."
I don't mean to sound like a pussy, but in this sport people have a way to take their practices and/or habbits personally, or so i have learned the hard way. Bring it up in a non-authoritarian manner and ease it into light. Being to direct can close the doors of communication with a hard-headed diver - and this would nul the whole point of causing a change in the divers behaviour.

my .02. thanx

=========Shaun ==========

[hipgnosis 0]

In my opinion, flawed as it is, it comes down to this.

Safety should be everyones concern, especially when we're engaging in something that is inherently dangerous.

If you see something that is looks wrong, especially on the aircraft where a mistake can harm everyone onboard, tell someone. Tell the person doing the action, or tell someone he's jumping with.

Don't get excited, just bring it to peoples attention, preferably just the person involved or as many people as are needed to either correct the situation or to explain that things are correct.

Most of the time a little reminder, even non-verbal will cue them in and common sense will take hold. We had someone sitting in the back of the Otter this weekend with their seat belt on and the door open, Quade waved his seat belt buckle at them, they acknowledged and took their seat belt off. Quick, simple, and resolved a potential problem.

In every firing range I went to in the military everyone from the Range Officers down to the lowest, greenest Private had the authority, at any time, to call cease fire. Why? Because, even if we lost ten minutes of range time because the Private was 100% incorrect, it beat the hell out of the alternative.

It's far easier to explain to someone why you erred on the side of safety, than to explain why you let something dangerous happen.


Bill

[D22369 0]

MOST EXCELLENT!!!!!!

an old article, but will always apply

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[Genn 0]

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Jumpin' Joe has been in the sport for a hell of a long time and is a world champion with gold medals and everything to prove it. Like I said in the vague question, he's a well respected guy. He inspires people to perform well.

So, you're on the airplane and the door is open and you see that he's doing something that isn't normally considered to be a good practice. Let's say he has decided to keep his seat belt on and he's sitting right by the door.

Consider all of the consequences of how you decide to respond to this; loss of face, urgency of issue, potential for disaster, who you're dealing with . . .

I wouldn't have to consider anything in this situation. If I was next to him I'd say "Dude, you forgot to take your seatbelt off" and that's it. End of story.

If I was in the front of the plane and happened to notice it...I'd tell someone in front of me to let him know his seatbelt is still on...I don't find this scenario a bid deal.

[feuergnom 22]

ok - lets try it this way (and i really hope i do get the point): theres tons of possibilities for unsafe behavior in skydiving - on ground, in the plane, while jumping & landing etc.
first of all be polity in your questions because then u will realize there are no skygods. if somebody acts like oe - well i gues he's got some problem with him/her being to selfconfident (hope thats the right word). even the teachers i had encouraged me while being a student to point out security-issues to jumpes who had a few thousand jumps on their record

if you take a look into the inidents forums any of us can realize that even experienced skydivers die due to "unsafe" practices like hooking way to low.
also i think there's way to many people trying to be cool in the air - i've seen near-accidents on freeflying videos that were addressed in a "it didn't happen anything so what's the fuzz" manner. the dicision was and should always be clear - make your choice and have a good look at who you jump with

on ground: check your buddy before boarding and give him/her a gentle nudge if you find something.
if somebody packs in an unusual way - ask. u might learn some new trick or - prevent desaster if he/she absently minded makes a mistake
one thing that makes me really go bezerk: if i realize somebody's jumping drugged - i'll have a serious word with him and get that person grounded. absolutely no matter who it is.

for myself: i wish to be told if i made something (knowingly or not) that my fellow skydivers found dangerous or questionable. because i know there must be some reason for their concern

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[somethinelse 0]

As a newbie, and knowing already that experienced jumpers got their own rationale for why they do or don't do WHATEVER...
AND just being the overly curious (sometimes obnoxious?) person that I am anyways, I'd approach the jumper after I'd watching them land an while they were packing, I'd say 'Hi' introduce myself, talk and maybe learn some more...FRIENDLY like.