I see all these topics about how students and younger jumpers...

[Ron 7]

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..Of course you don't, you just post other peoples private messages

Again, its not against the rules...

If you don't like me...All you folks with 100 jumps can start a whine a cheese thread in Talkback.

If you start to give skydiving advice...Expect me to call Bullshit on you.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[DanglesOZQld 0]

You are one of the rare low time jumpers who actually listen to others. I don't know everything and I will be the first to say that , however I have stuffed up royally and lived (fortunately!) to tell the tale. If someone else chooses to ignore all advice and do their own thing then that is more than fine. They can - 1. Get a plane 2. Get a pilot to fly for them 3. Find a location to jump from. In the meantime they are hurting more than just themselves if they stuff up. The C.I and everyone around them suffers in more than one way if they get a ride in an ambulance. I am feeling like an old fart when I say these things but I am sick of the attitude with some of the newish jumpers these days who are ready to run before they can walk with the newer and better technology available. Just my personal rant. Take it as you will anyone who reads this! BSBD -Mark.

"A Scar is just a Tattoo with a story!!!"

[Ron 7]

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>And in truth you don't know if they care, or if I had pemission from them...

Well, I do know, so I'm deleting the PM in question

Well Bill, I just talked to him today, and he still has no problem with what I did....

So why did you delete it again?
Can't find a good reason so you just made one up?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rehmwa 2]

Ron - Maybe you're an asshole in person, I don't know , I doubt it and certainly don't see it here. I see it just the opposite and it's how I try to be also.

et al: Big statement here: Directness is not a symptom of being an asshole, it's a demonstration that someone respects you enough to not sugarcoat the message. The only problem ever with directness is how it's taken, not given.

Therefore, I like directness and don't see anything wrong here and appreciate someone who respects me enough to be honest about their opinions ESPECIALLY when they disagree with me. Society is very thin skinned anymore and it really sucks when feelings become more important than facts.

For me, I listen very carefully when I hear a low timer giving advice to another low timer. It's much too often when the information given is EXACTLY the wrong thing. (A great example of this is the 45 degree exit separation thing. Search on it.) Call bullshit when you hear it. If someone gets wound up, just point out that you disagree with what was said and point the 'learner' to someone in authority if they won't listen. As for the 'wonder', I'm sure they meant well, but if they are wrong, then they are wrong.

But I've also seen pretty bad advice from thousand jump wonders also, just not as frequently. I could write a book on all the crappy advice I've given over the years. Hopefully the track record is improving and I'm doing a better mentoring job each year.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[WrongWay 0]

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You just CAN'T be good at it without raw experience, it's not something that can come naturally to us, because we can't do it naturally!

No one expects you to be good at it when you're a low-timer. No one ever is. BUT, they do expect you to be smart, be SAFE, and don't do anything stupid. If an instructor tells a newbie not to do something, 99 chances out of 100, he's very right, and they shouldn't do it. That is, unless they wanna get themselves killed and make our sport look even worse when their mommy comes out and sues the dz cuz it's all of the sudden their fault that you decided to do something stupid like jump a canopy they weren't ready for, started something too early, did a hook turn at 75 jumps, etc....

Look, I know I'm sounding like an asshole, but the reason I am is to drill it into newbie's heads. It's unbelievable how many young lives are lost to our sport which could have been saved if they just would have listened to "you're not ready for this". If newbies would listen those with higher jump numbers, we'd probably cut the fatality rate in half.

So this isn't about being "good" at it, it's about being SLOW about it. Take your time. It's better to be more than ready for something than to not be ready and hurt yourself, or worse. Listen to those more experienced than you, it could very well save your life.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[rehmwa 2]

Random comment: On the other hand, just because you have 1000 jumps, doesn't mean you are experienced if it took 35 years to accumulate. You're just not very current and likely your advice is even worse than the newbie because you'll insist it's right especially when it's not. We had a guy insist that a donut build is done by "putting your leg in the hand of the person....." He was hitting it so hard we had to practically 'place' him in his slot to keep the 4-way from shaking from his hard docks.... (because that's the way 'it's always been done')

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Ron 7]

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No one expects you to be good at it when you're a low-timer. No one ever is. BUT, they do expect you to be smart, be SAFE, and don't do anything stupid. If an instructor tells a newbie not to do something, 99 chances out of 100, he's very right, and they shouldn't do it.

Well said.

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Look, I know I'm sounding like an asshole, but the reason I am is to drill it into newbie's heads. It's unbelievable how many young lives are lost to our sport which could have been saved if they just would have listened to "you're not ready for this". If newbies would listen those with higher jump numbers, we'd probably cut the fatality rate in half.

Again damn well said. I think this way as well...

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So this isn't about being "good" at it, it's about being SLOW about it. Take your time. It's better to be more than ready for something than to not be ready and hurt yourself, or worse. Listen to those more experienced than you, it could very well save your life.

I would change SLOW to SAFE. I don't want people to go slow..I want them to be safe...If they can learn fast......Cool, more power to them. However as long as they are safe about it.

You can skydive safe and learn and have fun.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Nightingale 0]

lol...

I think the lesson here is:

Old timers need to guide the newbies to the best of their abilities. Newbies need to listen to those who've been around a while. But nobody's going to listen to anybody if they sound like a jerk when they're attempting to educate someone.

Something we learn in teacher education classes: you need to build a rapport with someone you plan on teaching, and you can't do that if you build animosity.

[Ron 7]

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Old timers need to guide the newbies to the best of their abilities

True and well said.

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Newbies need to listen to those who've been around a while.

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But nobody's going to listen to anybody if they sound like a jerk when they're attempting to educate someone.

But no one is going to try and teach you if you act like you know it all already.

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Something we learn in teacher education classes: you need to build a rapport with someone you plan on teaching, and you can't do that if you build animosity.

And if you start out trying to help, and they act like an asshole to you since they think they know better than you...then what do you do?

When I taught Martial Arts....I'd demonstrate why I had a Black Belt and they had a green. I'd never hurt them, but I would show them that when I say "keep your guard up!" I knew what I was saying.

In skydiving I can only wait till they get hurt and walk up and ask them if they wish they had listened to me before their femur was sticking out of their leg.

I would rather not have to wait that long. I hate holding a person together till the medics arrive...And I hate waiting for the meat wagon even worse.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,402]

>If you don't like me...All you folks with 100 jumps can start a whine a
>cheese thread in Talkback.

I would give the same advice to you. You have posted some useful stuff in this thread, but over half your posts are just bitching about what someone else said. (And please, don't start with the "But she said that . . . ") If you just want to bitch about someone else's opinions on posting PM's or on giving advice, talkback is a better place to do that. Or take the advice given by a poster on this very thread:

>1. Act like an adult and just ignore (them) from now on . . .

[Nightingale 0]

if you approach someone nicely, most of the time, your sentiments will be returned in kind. If someone gives you attitude, walk away. You tried. It is their choice not to listen. If you truly feel their behavior is unsafe and they won't listen, talk to someone at the DZ who can make them either listen or not jump.

a phrase I've heard quite a bit, both in the martial arts and education fields: You can lead someone to knowledge, but you can't make them think!

[Ron 7]

Are you going to admit that you deleted that PM for no reason other than you wanted to?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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if you approach someone nicely, most of the time, your sentiments will be returned in kind

Yep....Except for the XXX-jump wonders we are talking about. they already know it all, and will not listen.

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If someone gives you attitude, walk away. You tried

Yep, and I did this for a while.....But you get sick of seeing broken people. This is why I have my very direct attitude now. I say it like it is, and then walk away.

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a phrase I've heard quite a bit, both in the martial arts and education fields: You can lead someone to knowledge, but you can't make them think!

True...

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Nightingale 0]

If I make a mistake and you walk up to me and say "you really f-ed up that landing! It was stupid and dangerous and you better learn how to set up a good landing pattern!" frankly, they're probably going to get the finger and be told to fuck off.

However, if someone approaches and says "you look like you need a little help with landing patterns... I can help you a bit, if you like." they're going to get a completely different response, like "Sure! I'd appreciate any help!"

[billvon 2,402]

>Are you going to admit that you deleted that PM for no reason other
>than you wanted to?

Of course I deleted it because I wanted to. Do you really think I'd delete it if I _didn't_ want to? Anything goes in Talkback, but in the topical forums, everything does not go. And one of the things that does not go is posting contentious PM's. In my opinion of course.

This is a useful thread on newbies taking advice; let's stick to that topic. Seriously.

[happythoughts 0]

This would be a good time to advertise your new book, "How to win friends and influence people...by choking the little pissants until they listen".

(Before I get flamed, etc, Ron knows I am kidding him.)

[sangiro 4]

Ron - your style is diluting your substance. I know you're trying to teach and you've got good stuff to say, but stop for a second and think whether this doesn't defeat the purpose of the exercise...

Safe swoops
Sangiro

[Ron 7]

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If I make a mistake and you walk up to me and say "you really f-ed up that landing! It was stupid and dangerous and you better learn how to set up a good landing pattern!" frankly, they're probably going to get the finger and be told to fuck off.

Well it never starts that way...

It usually goes like this (A real conversation I have had:

We are standing at manifest in Zhills.

Guy with 80 jumps: Hey how do you get to X DZ?

I give the guy directions then ask "Why are you goin there, they only have a Cessna?"

Guy: Well the instructors said its to windy for me to jump today, so Im going to another DZ.

Me: You know if its to windy here its probley to windy there as well.

Guy: Well I called them and told them I had 200 jumps and they said its OK.

Me: But it still is not safe even if they say its OK, and you don't have 100 jumps yet.

Guy: Why don't you assholes leave me alone, I know what I am doing, and I'm sick of being treated like a student!


Or this one:

Guy: Im getting a (1.5 wingloaded elliptical canopy )

Me: How many jumps do you have?

Guy: Enough.

Me: Well last time I checked you only had 150 jumps, you might not be ready for that canopy yet. You have a 1.2 loaded Sabre now, and a 1.5 load elliptical is VERY different. Maybe you should not push it so hard? Most of the fatalities in this sport are under good canopies now.

Guy: I know what I am doing! I have stood up all my landings since I had 20 jumps.

Me: Can you land standing in the peas 99% of the time?

Guy: I don't want to do accuracy, I want to learn to swoop, and Bob said I needed another canopy to learn.

Me: Thats not true, you can learn how to swoop under almost any wing. Your 1.2 loaded Sabre can be swooped.

Guy: Bob said I will be fine, and that I will just have to be careful at first. I don't want to buy another canopy in 50 jumps when I am bored with this one. You just don't want to see me jump a smaller canopy than you.


Anyway after 10 years of this.....Trying to give advice and then getting it thrown in your face....It gets old.

Hey how about my favorite comment right now from a guy. (It's in bold)

He is trying to swoop the pond here. He has an 88 Xbraced canopy. And he misses like over half the pond. then this guy with 500 jumps and a Stiletto 120 does the whole pond, and does it well. I tell the Stiletto guy that he did really well. In fact better than all the Xbraced pilots...

The 88 guy says "no he didn't"

I say yeah, he did, he did the whole pond, you only did less than half.

88 says "Well the reason he did better was because I have the more complex canopy"

I say "you mean he did better than you because you had the better canopy?...that makes no sense!"

88: "Well I don't see you swooping the pond, why don't you just shut up."

It kills me.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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Of course I deleted it because I wanted to. Do you really think I'd delete it if I _didn't_ want to? Anything goes in Talkback, but in the topical forums, everything does not go. And one of the things that does not go is posting contentious PM's. In my opinion of course

But you said you deleted it because you knew who it was from and that I didn't have permission.

Me:

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>And in truth you don't know if they care, or if I had pemission from them...

And you wrote:

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Well, I do know, so I'm deleting the PM in question

And in fact you don't...since I just talked to him this morning...

Just admit that you lied and deleted it just cause you wanted to....

Be the big man and admit you lied.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Nightingale 0]

if someone is determined not to listen to you, you can do one of two things.

1. leave it alone because you're not getting anywhere.

2. talk to someone else who can help.

in the example you gave, you could call manifest at the other DZ and let them know about the guy and that he's lying about his jump numbers. Then, let them make the appropriate decision with all the information.

[Ron 7]

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in the example you gave, you could call manifest at the other DZ and let them know about the guy and that he's lying about his jump numbers. Then, let them make the appropriate decision with all the information

I did one better...I went with him.

I didn't have to get involved since it was more windy, and they were not even flying.

But the next weekend this guy was saying how we treat him like a baby. And how we are all assholes.

This is an example of the kind of BS that XXX jump wonders do to give them that name.

This guy later went on to get a smaller canopy and break his leg BTW.

Edit to add: You don't have to like the person or the approach to learn the lesson. I learned a lot in basic training...but I hated the DI's and the methods of instruction.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

Is it true you lied at ZHills about what canopy you were jumping?

**Maybe it is true. What is it that you would do with that information, Ron?


Maybe you were not the best person to give advice in this matter?

** Perhaps.


But maybe you should not give advice given your history...

**And, yet. I have every right to post a reply. If people don't know how to make up their own minds about something, then maybe they shouldn't be in the sport. Or, watching tv, or on the internet for that matter.


And maybe you should not argue with folks that have more experience than you?

**Maybe, in your opinion, I should not. I gave my opinion, and, in the end, the person I was discussing this with ended up making some good points and I recognized that. If I hadn't argued, I wouldn't have learned much.


If the DZ thought it was bad enough to call other DZ's to warn them...
Then I would think it was bad enough...Actually The event does not seem to be the problem. It might be how you reacted to it. I have never seen a DZ kick someone off for making a mistake, unless they had an attitude when they were talked to about it.

** Well, what you "think" and what actually IS are two different things. I KNOW that I didn't do anything that extremely wrong, and recognized that I was too close and when approached afterward I said it before they did. I got too far downwind. I didn't realize how little/no penetration I was going to get. This comes with experience, like many things as you know. I think it was more politics than anything else. YOU have no idea because YOU were not there. Your ASSumptions are just that.


From 900 feet I can land in just about any direction I want. How were you not able to enter a normal pattern from 900 feet?

**Maybe I was just too freaked out because I almost killed myself on my 30th jump. I actually flew a pattern, just the wrong one, and ended up crosswind and crabbed onto the runway. I do not have 3000 jumps like you Ron. At the time, I only had 30 jumps. At least I didn't freak out and hook myself in trying to land on the grass because I was going to land on the runway. . . lets look at the bright side.


Honestly I don't know...But again if a DZ kicks you off, then feels like they should warn others....And I really want to know if you lied at Zhills about your canopy. So it seems clear that some think you are in danger.

**That's right, you don't know. At least we have that straight now.


It is not a personal post about you.

**Boy, am I an idiot. I could've sworn this was personal shit about me. Glad we've cleared that up.


Again feel free to PM or post here to clear this up...

**wtf would I bother to do that. It is quite obvious that it'd be the same as posting it on here. I thought they were "private" messages.

Whatever. I'm done with this shit. See ya.

Angela.

[Vallerina 2]

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And, yet. I have every right to post a reply. If people don't know how to make up their own minds about something, then maybe they shouldn't be in the sport. Or, watching tv, or on the internet for that matter.

That's the biggest misconception of dz.com. You have no "right" to post here. It's Sangiro's site. He lets you post here. Also, that's great that you understand that people need to think for themselves and question the advice giver, but if you have this understanding that people should question your advice, why do you post it? You basically said, "It's okay if I post incorrect advice because people should think for themselves and realize it's incorrect all on their own."

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I KNOW that I didn't do anything that extremely wrong,

Didn't you say that you landed by a plane? One of the more respectable and rarer things in the sport is to hear, "I f-ed up."

I do hope that newbies like me who are eager for information filter what they get.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[happythoughts 0]

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I do hope that newbies like me who are eager for information filter what they get.

A bonfire chat is handy that way. You aren't necessarily talking to just one person, you are in a group of 5 or 8. When someone says something, someone else responds, so you get that check-and-balance.

I encourage people to talk to as many people as possible. Hanging at the dz after hours at the fire or bar is a great way to pick up stuff.

It is builds the undercurrent of skydiving - the lifelong friendships. The shared understanding of what doing a skydive feels like.

I also encourage people to discuss any safety issues with their S&TA. Everyone should find someone whose opinion they respect and then listen to it, even if it isn't flattering sometimes.

[Jen1129 0]

As a newbie myself, I am extremely grateful to all the instructors who have patiently answered all my questions. I've already read several incident reports that end with warnings about trying something advanced without the proper skill level. In hopes of not having one of those written about me, I will listen to the people who have been around and experienced more than I have.

I imagine it is possible for someone to have natural skill at skydiving, like anything else. (Anyone who's watched me land knows I definitely don't have natural skill.) But one thing that natural skill could probably never make up for is the perspective that experience brings.

Think of something you are very good at and have a lot of experience with. Think of someone with 1/10 your experience acting like they know everything and refusing to listen to your advice. You have the perspective of your experience, they just have an attitude. I imagine that would get frustrating.

I'm just glad there are instructors who are still willing to take the time with newbies despite experiences with people who don't listen.