question for instructors

[Nightingale 0]

casurf posted this in another thread, but I thought it might get lost down there...


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Still in Aff so newbie with cap N, dont know if i should be posting here but just a few quick questions to any jms out there. When you get new students can you 'tell' which ones might end up in this thread or ones which just shouldn't be jumping? Have any one of you ever refused to jump with a student for any reason?

[AggieDave 6]

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Have any one of you ever refused to jump with a student for any reason?

Yup, but as a TM, that's a little different then a trained AFF student and an AFF-I.

Basically besides the obvious "fat bodied flow'rs" that don't get to jump, when I was visiting a different DZ a few weeks ago, I was asked if I would take this guy up. He was 65, overwight and had VERY high blood pressure and was on Lipedral (sp?), basically the strongest blood pressure meds you can get. I said no, infact I think it was "hell no", since that's just asking to kill that guy if he jumps...all that adreniline, aint no fucking way.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Kris 0]

There was a student I refused to take last summer. The wheel was spinning but the hamster was definitely dead. This IAD student absolutely refused to listen to anything I tried to tell him and insisted that since he was a pilot that he knew exactly what he was doing and accused me of just being too safe.

If I remember correctly, this was after his first practice pull. He wanted to go right to his clear&pull then an immediate full-altitude jump.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[jdthomas 0]

students are like everyone else. Diffrent.. very diffrent.

I have refused students in the past only to see them do good, maybe it was the JM that they went with or maybe and I like to think that it was just them doing what they where supposed to do.

I have also taken Tandems and students that I thought nothing of and they where some of the worst.

But sometimes you see those people that should be doing some other "sport" and not skydiving.
So if the JM's are refusing to jump with you, ask why and ask them to tell you straight out why.

www.greenboxphotography.com

[jsaxton 0]

While teching the FJC for AFF I _can_ recommend that the student does a tendem instead. I have never exercised this, although on a couple of occassions I probably should have.

They both had good CC and Landings but one was a "deer in the headlights" in freefall and the other was so terrified and stiff that this obviously wasn't his sport. BTW: the stiff one was a pilot.

[crutch 0]

As with Dave, size has always been the main reason, not someone actions. Although once a large guy we might have worked with got loud, so we said good-by.

There have been several that after a couple of jumps we persuaded to give the sport up. You can only deal with someone so long before you have to say "hey, the bowling alley is right around the corner and they are having a special today".

blue skies,

art

[usedtajump 1]

I refused to take a guy on a tandem jump because he had extremely bad BO It was so bad that I gagged repeatedly while attempting to go over exit drills so I just walked away

The older I get the less I care who I piss off.

[cruzit 0]

As of today...I have never refused to jump with a student. The biggest problem I have encountered is students failing to disclose medical problems (you know all the tricky stuff you can't see). Twice I have seen students dislocate shoulders (one while in free fall on a level 1 and one while hanging on to the strut on an IAD...I pulled him back in...don't ask...it wasn't pretty. Found out later both had a history of dislocations). Another time a student failed to let my husband know he had high blood pressure...he also neglected to take his meds for it and ended up passing out on jump run in the door of the plane.

I'll take a student who is less than stellar intellectually as long as they aren't cocky. I draw the line at cocky because those are the kind of students who break my golden rule which is...Don't hurt or scare me

[McG 0]

Once I had just dropped a first-timer I told to the pilot: "Oh my, that guy is going to brake his leg". I was wrong. He broke his arm on his 2nd landing.
Sometimes it is easy to see if someone shouldn´t jump; bad coordination, heavy overweight careless attitude and so on. Others make it just fine if they have a good attitude and they want to learn.
***

>If God meant for man to fly, He´d have given him much more money.

McG, DZ EFVA dictator

[sdgregory 0]

I have a question about this overweight thing. What are you considering overweight and don't they make canopies big enough for a 250 lb guy to jump?

Is this sport weight discriminatory? Not critisizing, honestly. I am just curious.

[Pluto 0]

Most DZ's have a 220-250 pound limit. This varies from each DZ.

[sdgregory 0]

Is this limit because of the planes or because no gear will hold a person this big?

[PhreeZone 15]

Most harnesses are only rated to 255 pounds so its gear limitation. In terms of students, tandems can only hold so much weight to be under their weight limits.

500-550 pounds is typical for tandem gear ratings. Thats for the 60-70 pound rig, the TM and the student.

There are options for large solo jumpers. One is converting a tandem rig for solo jumping, another is getting military MT-X rigs that are rated to a much higher level.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[coconutmonkey 0]

The sport isn't discriminatory in the way of not liking people who look overweight. It's the fact that all canopies and harnesses are TSO rated to specific weights and those cannot be exceeded. A secondary note is the physical conditioning of people who are grossly overweight may incur additional physical problems due to lack of conditioning, flexibility, strength and cardiopulmonary stress. If you cannot walk a flight of stains without being winded nor do a pull up, you may be a hazard to yourself and others in this sport.

Hearts & Minds
2 to the Heart-
1 to the Mind-
Home of the Coconut Lounge, Spa, & Artillery Range

[RyanofOZ 0]

The weight thing was a slight issue for me when I started AFF. I am not fat at all, but am a weight lifter and about 6'1 - 6'2 - 225. Try getting in a random rig with a 34 inch waist and 50 inch chest, not pretty. Not to mention never being able to find a used container that will fit you. If I knew I would have done this years ago, I would have put the protein down! I had to go out of my way to find a DZ that went over 225. I was not going to be at the very max weight. Just didnt give me a warm fuzzy.

Oz

[billvon 2,402]

>What are you considering overweight and don't they make canopies
>big enough for a 250 lb guy to jump?

Sure, but most DZ's don't have them. There's no problem at all with a 250+ lb guy who wants to go through a SL progression, subject to the following:

-He may have to buy his own gear, since no 'regular' student gear is certified to that weight. He'll likely need a modified tandem rig and a tandem main.

-He may have to pay for 2 slots since he will take the place of two people in the aircraft.

-Unless he is solid muscle, he's at a much higher risk of injury going through the student program, and he has to accept them.

[Michele 1]

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If you cannot walk a flight of stains without being winded nor do a pull up, you may be a hazard to yourself and others in this sport.

Sorry....

I guess I've been endangering myself and everyone around me needlessly for years.

Really sorry about that.

Gosh, I am.

I can't do a pull up, and am chubby. I guess I should sell my gear and get out of the sport. I mean, because I can't do a pull up, I may a danger to all.

WTF is that????????????????

I am more flexible than 90% of people, physically fit or not. I am as strong, if not stronger, than the average woman (just ask Sinker - 230 pounds, and I lifted him up. Easy-pie.). And, I am as air-aware as the average 80 jump wonder, if not more so.

Can I flare the 210? Sure. Can I front riser it? Well, not really. But that's all right - I don't want to, anyway. Can I rear riser it? Absolutely. Can I pick up a guy and carry him? Yes....

So explain, please, how I am a danger because I can't do a pull up. I am serious.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[elfanie 0]

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>What are you considering overweight and don't they make canopies
>big enough for a 250 lb guy to jump?

Sure, but most DZ's don't have them. There's no problem at all with a 250+ lb guy who wants to go through a SL progression, subject to the following:

-He may have to buy his own gear, since no 'regular' student gear is certified to that weight. He'll likely need a modified tandem rig and a tandem main.

-He may have to pay for 2 slots since he will take the place of two people in the aircraft.

-Unless he is solid muscle, he's at a much higher risk of injury going through the student program, and he has to accept them.

My husband is about 265 pounds (6'2")..slightly overweight but mostly just "a big guy". He did AFF on a Nav 260....no problem.
he's now jumping a Nav 240...again, no problem. Never has had to pay for two slots..and he might be at a higher risk of injury just because...well, having that much weight coming down isn't as forgiving. (me being 135, I can tumble and bounce and walk away with little more than a bruised ego....he doesn't 'tumble' as well.)

But are you saying that you don't think that a Nav260 (or a Nav240) are safe for him?

--------------------------------------------
Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[billvon 2,402]

>But are you saying that you don't think that a Nav260 (or a Nav240)
are safe for him?

For a first jump? A 265 lb guy is going to load a Nav260 at about 1.15 to 1. That's a little on the high side for a first jump, not so bad after you have a few jumps. Personally, I would not put him on a first jump with a 260, but if he showed up at our DZ with a few jumps and comments on good canopy control, I'd have no problem with him jumping a 260 again.

Is he off student status now? If so, his loading is up to him. If he can handle the canopy well, and is starting to learn the details of canopy control (like flat/flare turns etc) then he's in pretty good shape.

[elfanie 0]

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Is he off student status now? If so, his loading is up to him. If he can handle the canopy well, and is starting to learn the details of canopy control (like flat/flare turns etc) then he's in pretty good shape.

Yes...we both have our A licenses now.

He said EVENTUALLY his last move will be to a Silhouette 230...but that's not for a while yet.

Me? My exit weight is somewhere around 165 or so...and I just jumped a PD 190 and a Sabre 190 on Sunday that I thought felt 'sporty' enough for me.
I've been jumping a Sil 210, and felt a world of difference between that and the two 190's (mostly from the different material/style..because I jumped a Sil190 and didn't notice that much difference.)

I'm so lightly loaded still that many have commented that they think I'd be fine on the Sil 170...but I'm so twitchy about downsizing...

--------------------------------------------
Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[Ron 7]

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So explain, please, how I am a danger because I can't do a pull up. I am serious

He said:

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If you cannot walk a flight of stains without being winded nor do a pull up, you may be a hazard to yourself and others in this sport

And it was about being a student. I would have serious issues with taking a person up who could not climb a flight of stairs...This is a physical activity, and if you are not fit it is harder than when you are fit.

The pull up thing is not such an issue, but if you are not fit enough to climb stairs...Then I would doubt your ability to handle the physical stress, and the emotional stress of skydiving.

I will not take people who are clearly out of shape skydiving. This is a SPORT, and there is some level of fitness required.

Once you have some experience it is easier to be out of shape...You have knowledge that can offset your physical limitations.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,402]

>I'm so lightly loaded still that many have commented that they think
>I'd be fine on the Sil 170...but I'm so twitchy about downsizing...

No real reason to, if you are happy with what you're jumping now. Also keep in mind that if he's loading his Navigator at 1.1 to 1, his experience will be nothing like yours if you load a canopy at 1.1 to 1. There's no comparison between a 150 and a 260, even at the same loadings.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Have any one of you ever refused to jump with a student for any reason?

I took a BIG guy on his 3 tandems and his first solo. I relealized quickly that if anythig went wrong, there was nothing I could do to control the student. Another Instructor took him on his second jump and it didn't go well and the Instructor refused to jump with him again. The DZO asked me to jump with him and I refused. He got mad and told me that if I was going to pick and choose my students that he wasn't going to give me any students. That was the last time I worked at that DZ.

Derek

[DALAILAMA 0]

I have refused to take individuals with health issues IE. recent sinus problems and I have refused to take students who were intoxicated or appeared to be nonfunctioning from the night prior.
There can be only one!
-opelika style-

"Dropzone.com, where uneducated people measuring penises, has become an art form"

[Michele 1]

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And it was about being a student. I would have serious issues with taking a person up who could not climb a flight of stairs...This is a physical activity, and if you are not fit it is harder than when you are fit.

I was a student, and frankly, just about the same shape (round) then as I am now. I didn't comment about the stairs...I commented about the pull-up which was one of the parameters (using an "or", not "and") set out in the post I questioned. Pull-ups are not exactly the best parameters of someone's physical shape.

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The pull up thing is not such an issue, but if you are not fit enough to climb stairs...Then I would doubt your ability to handle the physical stress, and the emotional stress of skydiving.

The issue I brought up was about pull-ups. Stair climbing, I will agree, but only to a point. I probably could not run a mile in 8 minutes, nor 9, nor 10. I could walk one in 10 minutes. Even during my most fit time, I could NOT do a pull up, and the way my body works, I go to hyperventilation within 30 seconds of strenuous running or rapid stair climbing. That is how my body works...been tested, all is well. (My body adjusts to hyperventilation, but never goes to oxygen deprivation or other issues along those lines.).

Emtional shape CANNOT be assessed from physical appearance, with the possible exception of being wasted or high. You have no idea what my emotional stamina/capability would be by looking at me...nor I you. I've seen beautifully scultped hardbodies not handle simple stress at all...let alone the stuff which comes along with jumping from a plane.

Reasonable physical shape is different from person to person. As a black belt, I was "overweight". No issues - still one of the best fighters in my tourny classes. Unless there is a fat pincher thingy, eyeballing will not help. Unless you have a stress test, you will not know if someone who gets winded walking up the stairs is in fact winded, or like me.

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I will not take people who are clearly out of shape skydiving. This is a SPORT, and there is some level of fitness required.

That is your right. Thankfully, my JM's had a different, more generous thought, and were willing to work with me to teach me how to skydive. SPORT it is...and I love it.

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Once you have some experience it is easier to be out of shape...You have knowledge that can offset your physical limitations.

Actually, skydiving has, more than pretty much anything else in recent years, made me more aware of how out of shape I am...seeing all the hardbodies running around can get depressing.

Look, I'm not debating the right for people to pick and choose who they take. It's their life, they get to make the call. But I think - perhaps, hope - that if someone really short decided that I was too tall to safely take, he wouldn't make that decision because of my weight...

As a "voluptuous" woman, I have serious curves. I would hope that someone would do more than look at me before they make the decision to not take me just because the boobs are big, the bottom is big, and everything in between is not just bones.

To you, I would be overweight. To my JMs, I was no issue. They taught me, taught me well, and I've remained safe and hopefully will continue to do so. Thank God I had the JM's I did and not a pull-up master.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~