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flyuphi99

cutaway charges for rented gear

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Hard pull and baglock force a cutaway on a rented rig, with loss of main, freebag, etc. Jumper fortunately ok, but DZ wants to charge the jumper for the lost items and a reserve repack to the tune of $2200. The main was well-used, with several thousand jumps, and the reserve would have been soon due for a repack anyway. Additionally, the DZ would certainly acquire the replacement items at wholesale, not retail, cost. And wouldn't most of this cost likely be covered by their business insurance? Doesn't seem fair to get a brand new updated canopy at the customer's expense, particularly when the pack was provided with the rental, and then bill the jumper for the retail as well. The jumper is a regular at the DZ, and probably has rented that rig several dozen times. Have we reached a new low in customer service?

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Hard pull AND a bag lock??

Did the jumper pack the rig himself? if so, it's his responsiblity to pack the rig properly.

After an injury a while back, I temorarilty upsized with a rented rig from Square1. It was spelled out in the contract that I signed that I pay for the repack of the reserve, cypres cutter, lost freebag and main canopy. The mains that Square 1 has are in really good shape. I was careful to pack properly, I even asked a couple of questions since the bridle routing on this Javlin Odessey is a little different than on my Talon.

My point? Yah I really feel bad for the guy who has to pay $2200 bucks. That seems a little steep.

They need to work somthing out since you say the main had 1000's of jumps on it. He shouldn't pay full retail. However the freebag/reserve pilot chute has to be custom made for that container buy the manufacturer.

Just off the top of my head......

Reserve repack $50
New freebag/pilotchute $250
Used Sabre w/ 500 jump $600
Handles? $50?

The whole thing should cost less than a $1000 bucks!

I would dispute the charges.

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Maybe to solve such problems in the future they could offer an optional insurance. A reserve happens according to stats 1 in a 1000 (?) jumps. You lose the main say 1 in 500 cutaways. So a dollar a jump insurance should work out to the renters advantage.

You say that the main had 1000's of jumps on it, this makes me wonder how many jumps the pilot chute had on it. A worn out pilot chute is a possible cause of bag lock and in this case I would not pay as the gear was faulty.

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If he'd borrowed a rig from a friend then I'd say it's his responsibility but if he's paid to hire a rig then I'd say it's the owner's. If you're renting out equipment then surely it's an accepted risk that stuff is going to get damaged or lost every once in a while and you'd factor that in to the rental price.

If you crashed a hire car you wouldn't expect to pay for a replacement would you?

Gus
OutpatientsOnline.com

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To put it simply you are responsible for your jump. If you rent gear you have two choices

1). Jump it as given and accept all responsibility
2). Repack the main and jump it, accepting all responsibility

With this thinking, if you have a malfunction you are responsible for your actions and the result which may come. When you rent gear you are supposed to bring it back in the same condition. If you lose some gear, you should replace it with gear of simiiar type and quality.

From a customer service point of view the DZ shouldn't try to make a profit off of the deal. The customer should be allowed to replace the gear by purchasing from different suppliers. If similar gear cannot be found a replacement cost should be paid. Finding a used 230 sq ft F111 canopy with 3000 jumps on it isn't that easy. In this case the jumper should pay an amortized amount of the replacement cost. At some point during the life of equipment it has reached its fully depreceated value and is essentially worthless.

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the guy renting shouldn't have to pay for a malfunction that he didn't pack himself ....

he has paid to rent a rig.. not be nearly killed due to a packers neglegence ..



He paid for a rental rig which 1) he should have inspected, 2) he could have repacked, 3) he could have paid a packer to repack, 4) he could have had an experienced rigger inspect ....

Now, if he did hire a rigger to inspect AND get a packer to repack it AND it still malfunctioned, he STILL assumes all responsibility and has to replace the equipment.

If you don't like it, buy your own gear or don't jump.

YOU are soley responsible for YOUR skydive

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If you crashed a hire car you wouldn't expect to pay for a replacement would you?



Ummm. Yes, if you rent a car and crash it, you are responsible for the full replacement cost of the car. You have a choice at the time of rental to buy additional insurance.

If you rent a car and the wheel falls off just after the engine drops out and the tank explodes you are still responsible for replacing the vehicle. Read a rental agreement sometime, you are responsible for EVERYTHING.

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he rented a rig which was packed by a packer at the DZ apparently...
he should not pay for that.
the baglock was not induced by the jumper, more probably by the packer.
many places I know, you are NOT allowed to pack yourself a rented rig. Packing is included in the fee. here is a black box for the packers in case of mal which would result in a reserve repack.
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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like has been said before, you pay for it and accept the responsibility!
im sure his DZ had him sign a waiver that he would have to replace the stuff before they rented it to him.
as far as blaming the packer, theyre not to blame, your paying for a packjob, not an opening
but i like it put better this way "when the manufacturers start garunteeing their work, ill start garunteeing mine!"
;)

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IMHO:

When someone rents gear, you pay for normal use of this gear. A reserve is normal use of gear. It's also not uncommon to damge or lose the main. The organisation that rents the gear has to calculate this in his price. You can't blame someone for normal use. However if someone is careless, you can blame the guy abnormal use and let him pay. But since a baglock isn't a doubtfull mailfunction and the rig was packed by the renting organisations you can't say the user has been careless. If he was careless you should only let him pay replacement value. There are enough second hand canopies out their so replacement value isn't equal to new.

Lastly the comparison with rental cars doesn't hold, crashing a car isn't normal use.
The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

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your paying for a packjob, not an opening


paying for a packjob which works ! I can also pack malfunctions, don't know if I woud have much success, even if it would be at half price !!!
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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You dont pay for an opening? I thought that was the idea when you throw the pilot chute out. The packers job is to put the main in the container in some way that it will deploy. I am not saying that the packer should catch hell for this, but he works for the DZ and IS responsible for the job he performed.

The renter should not have to pay for this.

That comment was just reckless.
Oz

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I know of very few places that wouldn't charge the jumper for the lost equipment. Even the military clubs hold you 100% accountable for the gear you rent from them. This seems only to recently have become an issue, when today's jumpers don't have sense enough to land with their main. I have seen many, many people chop, then fly their reserve straight to the main landing area, not once looking to see where their main might have went. Skydiving is an expensive sport and you better pay attention to where your chops land less you lose your precious $2400 crossbrace. I have landed my reserve intentionally in a briar patch for fear of losing a "ball of shit" main which landed right there.

At the Eloy Holiday Boogie, some moron went and jumped the Skyhook cutaway rig from RWS. The guy did the chop, never looked at the main, landed the "reserve" in the main landing area, then simply dropped the unpacked rig off back at Egon's booth and walked off, not even attempting to go fetch the main! Unbelievable.

Anway, if the place you are renting from has your packjob and slot included in the rental and the staff packed it, then it's likely that your rental contract will not hold you libel. If you are simply renting the equipment and you are packing it, then I can almost guarantee you that you will be held responsible for replacement.

I have assisted, out of the kindness of my heart, many people in their recovery efforts and only once or twice have we failed to locate the equipment. When you KNOW you are responsible for gear, then you are far more likely to walk that extra mile in efforts to recover it.

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, landed the "reserve" in the main landing area, then simply dropped the unpacked rig off back at Egon's booth and walked off, not even attempting to go fetch the main! Unbelievable.



Pretty clear reason for establishing a policy of 'you lose it, you buy it'. Without these types, it would be much easier to add a replacement insurance to the rental charge. That said, the DZ in the original post is asking for much more than replacement costs...

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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The jumper in question does own their own gear. They landed their rig and walked to the packing area to hear that sunset load was on less than a twenty min call. Wanting to go up for sunset, the jumper looked around the packing area for a rig to use and found the student rig in question. It is unfortunate that the jumper had to experience a mal on borrowed gear but we should remember the cost to replace a new/used main is far less than that of ones life. After speaking with this jumper upon landing they did not seem clear if it was a bag lock or a pilot chute in tow. It may have been a pilot chute in the burble I dont know I was not on the jump. The jumper never saw the bag or canopy above their head (from jumpers account) and did not attempt to locate it once they cut away. With under 200 jumps the awareness to follow the shit after cutaway may not have even occurred to the jumper. (read-expensive mistake) They were on survival mode. I do not work for the dz but I do know that to say the canopy has thousands and thousands of jumps is a bit exaggerated. If the jumper were to seek out a comparable replacement I am sure they would consider any option.

If the jumper in question had borrowed my rig at the end of the day, and had no idea where part of it went I would expect a replacement. In my eyes that would be a canopy withequal or fewer jumps on it.

Why is it some treat our dz's like family and friends and expect that treatment in return until money is involved?

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We had a similar incident at our dz this weekend. I say too bad. This jumper had her own gear but didn't know how to pack it and wanted to make the sunset load anyway. She took a recently packed rental rig from the packing tent and unfortunately experienced a mal. After hearing the jumper's account of what happened I'm not convinced that this was an actual bag lock. Could it be that this jumper lost altitude awareness and and panicked when the pilot chute got caught in a burble? It wouldn't be the first time this jumper pulled much lower than planned.

If the jumper had been jumping her own gear and this happend she would still be replacing the parachute and paying for a repack. What makes her think it should be any different while jumping gear that belongs to someone else?

Consider it one of those valuable learning lessons.

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***Post: Question,
How can we assume a baglock if it is not recovered and if it is a baglock it will fall basicly straight down so why can't we find it?

I can tell you've never jumped inthe Pacific Nortwest, home of the 100 foot Fir trees and coastal rainforest. The only time I miss the desert is when I'm choppin a mal, 'cause I know it's fifty-fifty it's going to land in the trees.[:/] Baglocks are really bad because they punch straight in and hide in the undergrowth. You can find them but it's no sure thing. We've had some lost for a year or two, 'til some hiker trips over it, other stuff that never gets found. Visit us at Kapowsin some time in Washington, jump our Super Otter, but pack real carefulB|

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