Honest numbers

[Praetorian 1]

OK first I'm not asking because I was told no. I'm asking cuz I'm curious and to point out something I see as lacking in mentors. I accept I have low numbers minimal experience have alot to learn etc ... end disclamer
there are many things that have "suggested" jump number before you try them, some are rules set by manufactures or instructors (birdman for example) what I'm asking is of those type of things, to those of you who do them now did you wait till the "suggested"number? and more importantly when someone asks your advice do you say "not till XXX jumps" or do you explain why? as an example when a new jumper wants to try crew or birdman do you explain what extra things could go wrong? do you say well I started jumping camera at 80 jumps and it nearly killed me because...X or do you quote the accepted number and end the advice? now the next part may be more valuable to answer as PMs but for those out there who started before THE # what are your experiences? Your still alive, would you take it back? did you have any close calls because you hadn't though about something, would you have waited till "the#" if you had been warned about that problem?

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[PrairieDoug 0]

I recently inquired about doing wingsuit jumps at the WFFC, and was told the minimum was 500 jumps. While a little disappointed, I have enough respect for the people making these decisions to accept their judgment at face value. The solution for me is getting more jumps under my belt to meet the requirement, not trying to figure out how to get around it.

[funks 1]

reading that gave me a headache

[MarkM 0]

Yeah, I'm the same way. There's a keys boogie I want to go to this year, but I need a C license to jump at it. So it's just a matter of squeezing in 70 jumps between now and then. If I don't get them done in time, I'll just go to it next year.

For wingsuiting I need to get to jump number 230 or so for the min requirements, plus I have some skills left I want to get down before zipping up into a birdman suit.

The way I see it is that the min numbers cited are for my own protection and are a general measure of skill needed. It would stupid to cheat around them, because I'd only be potentially hurting myself. If I feel I'm "good enough" even though I'm below requirements I'll go to the person in charge, get evaluated, and have him or her tell me if I'm ready. For example, I've done night jumps without a B license, but all I lacked with that was a license number, not the skill or training needed for it, and I had permission from the person running it.

[metalslug 31]

The question that comes to mind for me is "Will you learn anything at all about a particular type of jump or skydiving discipline without having to actualy do it ? It seems that in some cases the answer is Yes, and in some cases No.

I have noticed that there are "side-issues" relating to the type of jump that do require experience.
For example, the largest CRW canopies that our DZ has are 160s, so if a jumper is not sufficiently skilled or experienced under a 160, especialy regarding landings, then they have no business attempting CRW on those canopies. No point in building a great stack and a terrific downplane only to end up breaking bones while landing.
Also regarding CRW, a person needs to be confident at not having an RSL, and in many cases, a cutaway on a CRW jump often requires the jumper to freefall until close to the hard deck altitude before deploying the reserve. I would assume this requires a cool, calm mental state and may be tricky for a low-timer experiencing their first mal.

There is another recent thread on these forums about the dangers of newbie jumpers doing 2-ways. I was doing 2-ways with other newbies after about 35 jumps, after getting my "Category 2" FS rating from coached jumps. Soon after I also did a few 4-ways and 'horny gorillas' which didn't seem dangerous at the time.
In my opinion, I doubt I was learning much about fall-rate control, docking, drift etc until I started jumping with other people, so I dont completely see the logic in waiting longer before attempting simple 2-ways, for example.

[thelem 0]

I've not really got the jump numbers for me to give advice like this based on practical experience, but I am the sort of person who follows the recommended jump numbers.

Sure there are jumpers who do things before they are ready and get away with it. Many people will then look at these jumpers and say "they were ok, so you'll be fine" when in fact the original jumper was just lucky. Also remember jump numbers are only a guide to ability and don't take into account things like tunnel time and what you did on each of those jumps.

[mattjw916 2]

I had a similar discussion with a wingsuit instructor at Eloy (damn if I can remember his name now) and he was recommending at least 200 jumps with an emphasis on currency and tracking skills above the actual jump numbers themselves.

This makes more sense to me than just saying "500" without caveating it at all.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[skybytch 259]

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This makes more sense to me than just saying "500" without caveating it at all.

The 500 jump requirement was for first wingsuit jumps made at WFFC - which is crowded airspace both in freefall and under canopy.

[KrisFlyZ 0]

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The 500 jump requirement was for first wingsuit jumps made at WFFC - which is crowded airspace both in freefall and under canopy.

This is true. I only had 262 jumps when I arrived at the WFFC. I had over 50 wingsuit jumps in the two months leading up to the WFFC though. I was allowed to jump a wingsuit there.


Kris.

[faulknerwn 37]

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For example, the largest CRW canopies that our DZ has are 160s, so if a jumper is not sufficiently skilled or experienced under a 160, especialy regarding landings, then they have no business attempting CRW on those canopies. No point in building a great stack and a terrific downplane only to end up breaking bones while landing.
Also regarding CRW, a person needs to be confident at not having an RSL, and in many cases, a cutaway on a CRW jump often requires the jumper to freefall until close to the hard deck altitude before deploying the reserve. I would assume this requires a cool, calm mental state and may be tricky for a low-timer experiencing their first mal.
.

I disagree with a lot of that. I do CRW with Spectres and Triathalons ALL the times - they work great - you don't necessarily need a traditional hard-core CRW canopy.

And yes, you don't want to jump with an RSL - but I've got ~15 cutaways these days. The highest I was under a reserve ever on a freefall jump was 3000 feet - most were below two - only once have I been under a reserve on a CRW jump below 5000!!!! feet - and that was deliberate because I was flying the stuff I was going to cutaway down to help avoid losing it. The vast, vast, vast majority of CRW cutaways I've seen are thousands of feet higher than the typical freefall one - and the only reason you might need to do such a long delay was if it was a big-way CRW jump - on a 2 or 4 way - which is what most low-timers would be on - its just not necessary. I usually freefall after my CRW cutaways just for fun and because I have the altitude - its very rarely necessary.

[masher 1]

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I usually freefall after my CRW cutaways just for fun

How much fun can you have in a day?

--
Arching is overrated - Marlies

[Tonto 1]

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I disagree with a lot of that. I do CRW with Spectres and Triathalons ALL the times - they work great - you don't necessarily need a traditional hard-core CRW canopy.

Bear in mind this poster is in South Africa, a country with 500 licenced skydivers, of which only about 20 have any useful experience in CRW, and of those 20, half have not done a CRW jump in at least a year. There are simply NO Spectres, and NO Hybrid Tri's. The only other 7 cells are Cruislites etc from the late 80's.

Trust me. Equipment is an issue here.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[goose491 0]

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The 500 jump requirement was for first wingsuit jumps made at WFFC - which is crowded airspace both in freefall and under canopy.

I figured it must be something like that. At my DZ, they recommend 200 jumps before your first wingsuit jump.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[kelpdiver 2]

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The 500 jump requirement was for first wingsuit jumps made at WFFC - which is crowded airspace both in freefall and under canopy.

I figured it must be something like that. At my DZ, they recommend 200 jumps before your first wingsuit jump.

I had read 500 as the rec for people going out and trying it on their own, 200 for a coached intro.

If I ever make either of those marks, I'll think about it more. Some parts of it are very intruiging. And at least one of the DZs near me as an organzed FJC setup for it.

[riggerrob 558]

Requiring minimum jump numbers - before trying a new discipline - is a crude way of measuring skill levels.
The goal is for a skydiver to achieve zen in prerequisite skills before trying anything new.
By "zen," I mean that saving your own life should be second nature.
For example, tandem instructors need a minimum of 500 jumps, 3 years in the sport and one cutaway before they are allowed to haul students. The cutaway requirement is to prove that they can keep their cool under a malfunction.

We all know that counting numbers is a crude way to measure skill levels. Simply boring holes in the sky does little to improve skills.
For example, many years ago I attended a 10 way meet. One of my teammates had a thousand accuracy jumps, but little RW (formation skydiving) experience. I collected more than my fair share of bruises during exits. The guy was all over the sky, but he eventually made it to the base on MOST of our jumps.
Hee!
Hee!
On the other hand, if someone had made a thousand RW jumps - with coaching - I would expect him to consistently dock on the base within 10 seconds.

[packerboy 3]

Our DZ requires 1000 before doing tandems... minimums are just that... minimums. The people making the recommendations know what they are talking about, and they don't go nuts about having tonnes of experience before trying something. The numbers are usually fairly reasonable. I want to do tandems something fierce, but I respect the judgment calls of my mentors. That's why they are my mentors. Having some faceless organization, or someone I don't know, tell me I can't do something doesn't hit home with me all the time.

If you are thinking about doing something before the recommended "#", then talk to someone with alot of experience who you know well and trust that they would give you a well educated response. Ask your DZO, an AFF instructor, a CRW dog... someone with experience in doing whatever it is you want to do.

--------------------------------------------------
In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[Praetorian 1]

Ok I wanted a general discussion but I see I'm gonna have to use examples, so I'll pick 2 that I see as very different (though remember what little experience I'm coming from) 200jumps to start jumping with a camera, 500 to start birdman. (both of these are without a mentor or specific 1 on 1 training).. when someone with 80 jumps asks a 2000+jump camera flyer about strapping a camera to his head should the advice "not for another 120 jumps" be the answer or would it be better to explain what problems a camera can add?
Even I can see some of the things that birdman suits can add to a dive and would be scared to try one at this point (not saying I wouldnt do it if I had some serious(days and days 1 on 1) coaching but I'd be scared)
From my limited experience I really dont see a huge additional risk to strapping a tiny cam to your head ... obviously the smaller, lighter, simpler and better mounted the better but I know I'm missing a ton of issues that more experienced flyers could pass on... but most will simply issue the stock advice of "200 and C" ... and move on. I'm not shy about digging and getting useful answers but I know a lot of people arent as agressive as I am. So I'll ask again of experienced flyers do you give more advice then just the numbers when asked? Did you follow the advice when you started? if you did not (or even if you did) was it enough, what were the issues you discovered only after starting that you didn't know unitll you did it (camera, birdman, whatever)

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[akarunway 1]

I'm not shy about digging and getting useful answers but I know a lot of people arent as agressive as I am. So I'll ask again of experienced flyers do you give more advice then just the numbers when asked? Did you follow the advice when you started? if you did not (or even if you did) was it enough, what were the issues you discovered only after starting that you didn't know unitll you did it (camera, birdman, whatever)
Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment. . __________________________________________________---I started to teach myself freeflying at 30 jumps SOLO after reading some of Pat Works stuff on the internet as nobody would jump w/ me as I was a NEWBIE.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[captain1 0]

Actually the jumps required can be less than 500. However, at such an event you won't see that happen and rightfully so. You should be totally confident and comfortable in freefall long before you even attempt birdsuits in my opinion. Many a birdman have given me that caution.