FAA spot checking reserve repack cards?

[prepheckt 0]

I was at the dz this past weekend, and the FAA came around, so of course, everyone was a paragon of virtue....but they started checking reserve repack cards? How common is this? I've never even heard of this happening...Anyone?

"Dancing Argentine Tango is like doing calculus with your feet."
-9 toes

[sdctlc 0]

Heard that it could happen but never actually seen it happen.....

Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[PhreeZone 15]

Heard it happened at a DZ and they found a few rigs out of date. FAR violations were reported, but I don't know of what happened to the pilot/DZ.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Douva 0]

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I was at the dz this past weekend, and the FAA came around, so of course, everyone was a paragon of virtue....but they started checking reserve repack cards? How common is this? I've never even heard of this happening...Anyone?

I've seen it once at my old DZ. I landed off and was walking in a few minutes after everybody else. Another jumper walked up and warned me not to walk into the hangar unless I was certain my rig was in date because everyone else who had just landed was having their repack cards inspected by an FAA official. I was in date, so I went ahead and walked in, but by then I guess he had either lost interest or just didn't notice me because I never got checked.

--Douva

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[councilman24 36]

The FAA made a pre-announced visit to our small DZ recently. This was the first time other than once to examine the rig from a fatality in 24 years plus. I believe that the field offices have been given a mandate to visit everybody at least once and maybe more. Visits may also be prompted by complaints.

Not a problem, keep your rig in date.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[Fast 0]

We had an FAA guy show up at the DZ recently. He was over at the FBO I guess and noticed us skydiving. He came over and spent an hour checking paperwork/plane stuff. We had to sit and wait while he checked both our planes with the pilot.

Left before anyone got on the plane and showed up after everyone was already packed. He couldn't of checked reserves because its not against the rules to have an out of date rig just sitting around.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[riggerrob 558]

Just goes to show you that if your paperwork is good the feds will quickly lose interest.
It works the same way in Canada. For example, the last time Transport Canada inspected Pacific Skydivers, they had to find SOMETHING wrong, so they told us to re-write an obscure part of our operations manual about ferrying airplanes at night (less than 1% of our flying time).
On the other hand, our parachute records are so neat and pretty and sitting on the office shelf, that Transport Canada has never asked to see my rigger's logbook or read any reserve packing data cards.
Meanwhile, at least three other Canadian DZs have lost their operating certificates because of paperwork violations or operating outside their certificates.

[JohnRich 4]

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Left before anyone got on the plane and showed up after everyone was already packed. He couldn't of checked reserves because its not against the rules to have an out of date rig just sitting around.

Good one!

I gave an FAA guy a hassle once, because he was checking reserve cards on the ramp just prior to a 20-way demo jump. He insisted on checking the name on the card with the name of the jumper wearing the rig. When he got to me, I pointed out to him that it didn't matter who I was, or whether my name matched that on the packing card. The regs don't say that only the owner of the rig can jump it; anybody can. So as long as the reserve is in date, it doesn't matter who is jumping it.

The FAA guy wasn't happy with me for that. And the demo organizer shushed me up to keep from causing "trouble" with the FAA guy.

[Staso 0]

am i the only one who thinks that having reserve "in date" is indeed a good idea ? who are we trying to fool jumping out of date reserves ? FAA or ourselves ?

Stan.

--
it's not about defying gravity; it's how hard you can abuse it. speed skydiving it is ...
Speed Skydiving Forum

[maxmadmax 8]

I am surprised that you didn't whip out you spud cannon and tell 'em to leave.

Don't go away mad....just go away!

[diverdriver 5]

Which DZ?

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[relyon 0]

Good for you John! I wonder how often the FAA spot checks airline pilots to make sure their name is on the aircraft registration.

I've never jumped a rig with an out-of-date reserve, nor have I been spot checked for compliance. I've always been curious about the validity of such checks, though. To my knowledge, it is not against regulations to possess, pack, wear, or be on an aircraft with an out-of-date reserve. It is against regulations to jump with an out-of-date reserve.

Without a witnessing an actual jump (witnessing the landing would suffice), how does finding an out-of-date reserve on a ramp check constitute a violation?

Bob

[Rdutch 0]

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am i the only one who thinks that having reserve "in date" is indeed a good idea ? who are we trying to fool jumping out of date reserves ? FAA or ourselves ?

Stan.

Just wondering where you got that idea from, I dont see anything from his post even mentioning that in the littlest bit.

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[tombuch 0]

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Without a witnessing an actual jump (witnessing the landing would suffice), how does finding an out-of-date reserve on a ramp check constitute a violation?

First, when interpreting FAR's, keep in mind that the inspector can find a violation, and the burden of proof with regard to defense is on the jumper. There is no presumption of innocence.

There are several regulations that apply to this case.

91.307(a) says "No pilot of a civil aircraft may allow a parachute that is available for emergency use to be carried in that aircraft unless it is an approved type and..." the regulation then lists the repack requirement.

Part 105.43 begins by stating "No person may conduct a parachute operation using a single-harness, dual-parachute system, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow any person to conduct a parachute operation..." and then lists the repack requirements. Part 105.3 says that "Parachute Operation means the performance of all activity for the purpose of, or in support of, a parachute jump or parachute drop...Parachutist means a person who intends to exit an aircraft while in flight..."

If you are walking to the airplane with the apparent intent to jump, are in the airplane, or appear to have just landed, you must be able to show your rig is in date. If you are not jumping, you may of course possess a rig that is not in date, but you may not carry it in an airplane such that it would be available for use. If a group of jumpers are packing their mains and you are one of them, it may well be presumed that you just landed, and it would be your duty to prove otherwise.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[Staso 0]

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am i the only one who thinks that having reserve "in date" is indeed a good idea ? who are we trying to fool jumping out of date reserves ? FAA or ourselves ?

Stan.

Just wondering where you got that idea from, I dont see anything from his post even mentioning that in the littlest bit.

there are couple:

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I landed off and was walking in a few minutes after everybody else. Another jumper walked up and warned me not to walk into the hangar unless I was certain my rig was in date because everyone else who had just landed was having their repack cards inspected by an FAA official. I was in date, so I went ahead and walked in, but by then I guess he had either lost interest or just didn't notice me because I never got checked.

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Left before anyone got on the plane and showed up after everyone was already packed. He couldn't of checked reserves because its not against the rules to have an out of date rig just sitting around.

that's where i got the idea ... don't walk back in if you're rig is out of date. there is no reason to "warn" anyone right after the jump, since presumably the rig can not be out of date since you just jump it. the second quote is pretty much self explanatory as well.

i might got the wrong impression, but that's the one i got.

stan

--
it's not about defying gravity; it's how hard you can abuse it. speed skydiving it is ...
Speed Skydiving Forum

[JohnMitchell 14]

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I gave an FAA guy a hassle once, because he was checking reserve cards on the ramp just prior to a 20-way demo jump. He insisted on checking the name on the card with the name of the jumper wearing the rig. When he got to me, I pointed out to him that it didn't matter who I was, or whether my name matched that on the packing card. The regs don't say that only the owner of the rig can jump it; anybody can. So as long as the reserve is in date, it doesn't matter who is jumping it.

The FAA guy wasn't happy with me for that. And the demo organizer shushed me up to keep from causing "trouble" with the FAA guy.

Way to call Bullsh#& on that guy, John! I've seen FSDO guys with just a little too much power swimming around in their little pea brains. They sometimes think they are in charge of making policy, not just enforcing it.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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am i the only one who thinks that having reserve "in date" is indeed a good idea ? who are we trying to fool jumping out of date reserves ? FAA or ourselves ?

Stan.

Being in date is a requirement to be legal, but legal and safe are two different things. Nothing unsafe about a properly maintained, out of date reserve.

[BillyVance 34]

Back in the late 90's when I was doing the N.J. state record 100 ways, the FAA showed up and demanded to inspect the Casas that were brought in for the event. Everybody ended up sitting for 2 hours. We probably lost enough time for one or two big way attempts.

Never argue with an FAA representative on-site, even if you are right, unless you have hard evidence. You can invite more trouble your way...

Blue Skies
Billy

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[Staso 0]

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Nothing unsafe about a properly maintained, out of date reserve.

i thought "being in date" was a part of proper maintenance for the reserve. i'm sorry, the whole sentence just doesn't sound right to me. if you maintain it proper, doesn't it imply that you repack it and inspect, etc ? otherwise was is the maintenance ? keeping an eye on your rig ? not keeping your rig in your car's trunk ? i think you contradict yourself. repack is the proper maintenance.

don't get me wrong, i'm not a safety nazi of any kind and i don't agree that safety is priority number one, otherwise i'd stay on the ground and probably wouldn't choose speed skydiving as my first discipline. but maintaining reserve in date doesn't take much effort, so why not follow it ? i know there are notions to kick reserve repack up to 6 months but it's not the point. even if repack cycle is 6 months, there will always be someone who would go for an extra month on well maintained reserve and push it even further. push envelope in the sky, flying better, faster, swooping longer ... going longer on you reserve doesn't seem to be a great achievement, but rather a negligence.

clearly, you have more jumps and experience then i do, but i still think the theory behind out of date properly maintained reserve is wrong.

--
it's not about defying gravity; it's how hard you can abuse it. speed skydiving it is ...
Speed Skydiving Forum

[akjmpplt 0]

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Without a witnessing an actual jump (witnessing the landing would suffice), how does finding an out-of-date reserve on a ramp check constitute a violation?

Since it's the pilot who will suffer the wrath of the FAA (justified or not), please have your rig in date and save the pilot the hassle. it's his certificate on the line, not yours.

SmugMug

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Nothing unsafe about a properly maintained, out of date reserve.

i thought "being in date" was a part of proper maintenance for the reserve.keeping an eye on your rig ? not keeping your rig in your car's trunk ? i think you contradict yourself. repack is the proper maintenance.

i know there are notions to kick reserve repack up to 6 months but it's not the point.

Thanks for your reply. You actually illustrated several of my points. Many countries use a 6 month to 1 year repack cycle. No problems have been attributed to this. Obviously saying a reserve 121 days in the bag is unsafe is not true. I see people who would never jump an out of date reserve go around with worn closing loops, leave their gear in the sun to cook, or in a hot trunk all day, and think nothing of it. Some even sit on the plane with their chest straps not done up properly. But at least they are being safe.


The FAA will let you do a lot of things that are not safe. Look closely at the FAR's. There is not even a requirement to open your parachute. They only require that it be an approved system and be in date.

According to some of the manufacturers, every time you repack your reserve, it causes wear and tear on it. Still think the FAA is doing us a favor by requiring it every 120 days? Used to be every 60 days, so that is an improvement, but I'd still vote for once a year.

My main point, and I think I have one, is that safety and rules sometimes hold hands, but are not one and the same.

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[relyon 0]

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Since it's the pilot who will suffer the wrath of the FAA (justified or not), please have your rig in date and save the pilot the hassle. it's his certificate on the line, not yours.

Point very well taken, and exactly why I noted in my post "I've never jumped a rig with an out-of-date reserve". That's no BS. I have certificates too, and no intentions of surrendering them for a skydive.

Bob

[tombuch 0]

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Since it's the pilot who will suffer the wrath of the FAA (justified or not), please have your rig in date and save the pilot the hassle. it's his certificate on the line, not yours.

Point very well taken, and exactly why I noted in my post "I've never jumped a rig with an out-of-date reserve". That's no BS. I have certificates too, and no intentions of surrendering them for a skydive.

Bob

Keep in mind the jumpers can also face fines, as can the drop zone, the owners of the airplanes, and anybody else involded in the operation.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[okalb 78]

A few years ago my old DZ was having problems with the airport manager who didn't want us skydiving on the airport. He was constantly doing things to try to make us miserable.

One day the plane full of 19 jumpers was just pulling away from the loading area and an FAA helicopter landed right in from of it blocking the path. The FAA guys made everyone get out of the plane and they checked everyone's reserve data cards as well as all of the pilot's paperwork. We were all kosher so they left. Airport manager was hiding off to the side the whole time laughing. Not sure what he told the FAA to get them to do that but he sure got their panties in a bunch.

-OK

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[JohnMitchell 14]

That's one hell of a use of taxpayers' money. Did the airport manager get off your back after that, or did he keep pushing to kick you all off? The whole "helicopter in front of the airplane" seems a little dramatic. I know some guys in the fAA that hate skydivers and skydiving and like to throw their weight around. Not really what I like to see my tax dollars go to.