Should students be allowed to use audibles?

[lewmonst 0]

Should student be allowed to use audibles?
Only one answer allowed because you either are an instructor of some type or not. If you vote "depends" please explain.

This of course brought up by the FXC fire thread...

You know my vote.... I think I can predict how this will turn out...

peace
lew

http://www.exitshot.com

[diablopilot 2]

No.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[pajarito 0]

Why not?

[usskydiver 0]

Yes, with "flat line" set at 2,000 AGL just in case there's any question in their mind about whether to keep playing with it (while losing altitude awareness) or getting rid of it. IMO

Tim T.
Team Paraclete

[wmw999 2,149]

Depends; really, it means "no" but I'm a former instructor -- i.e. my opinion has some basis in working with a significant number of real students, but my instructorship expired.

Being able to multi-task enough to both maintain altitude awareness and do stuff is incredibly important. It's a critical survival skill. It's right up there with landing safely as something that should be emphasized for students.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[diablopilot 2]

Here are some of my reasons..... http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1223295#1223295


I just don't think we should be encouraging a new skydiver to rely on another peice of equipment they don't need. Too many jumpers are lulled into the "device dependancy" trap after student statuse now anyway, why do it sooner.

I will make jumps all day long sans audible, and visual if I need to (not including student jumps) simply because I a) have the skill to, and b) have practiced the skills required to do so.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[pajarito 0]

I think it's a great idea. Any device to hopefully increase a student’s situational awareness, in my opinion, is a good thing. I watched a girl with a spinning malfunction on her first jump lose altitude awareness and finally cut away at about 3 times treetop level. She's now a paraplegic. Of course, a radio might have helped. That wasn’t as common way back then, however. An audible might have snapped her out of her daze and prompted her to take corrective action. Maybe…

[pajarito 0]

Quote

Too many jumpers are lulled into the "device dependancy" trap after student statuse now anyway, why do it sooner.

I can see your point there. I guess I'm just talking about the initial jumps when many students get tunnel vision, panic takes over, and they forget everything you taught them on the ground.

[Jib 0]

I'm not an instructor and initially said no, but set at 2k... maybe.
The other thing about it is where to mount it and how to safe guard it from theft. Protecs don't lend themselves to mounting and quieter helmets may not work too well with the radio.

--------------------------------------------------
the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[sundevil777 94]

Quote

Protecs don't lend themselves to mounting

It depends on the type of liner (the liners from para-gear are good). My protrack fits perfectly in my protec, just enough interference with the foam to hold it well.

Having an audible scream at a student that is not saving their own butt cannot be a bad thing, in my opinion.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[adrenalinejunki 0]

I was jumping a full face Z-1 when I did a student jump at Z-Hills and could hear the radio (on my chest strap) just fine. I think the audible should be set for atleast 1000ft below thier deployment altitude so that way it is just a backup and can't be relied on. Skydiving is dangerous enough, anything we can do to make it safer will be doing good for us all.

__________________________________________________

What's the worst that can happen?

[alanab 0]

no, cause they should learn to be altitude aware from the very start. handing students an audible will teach them to rely on that.

[velvetjo 0]

My home DZ uses audibles for students. They're set below the intended pull altitude, and function only as a backup system, much as an AAD does. I'm working on my coach rating and have assisted teaching the first jump course, where the mantra "never rely on a backup" is constantly drilled into the students.

Since I did my initial training elsewhere, this post has got me curious to talk to the instructors about their experiences so far with using audibles for students. I know of no negative aspects so far with this practice. Students would only hear an audible in freefall if they're already late to pull, when it might actually do some good.

Lance

[Shark 0]

No.

Heck, half the time a student will not "see" a pull signal, let alone allow the JM to "assist."

[sundevil777 94]

Might as well advocate that students should not have radios. They might become dependant on them.

I say that you are so terribly wrong.

I don't see how one can argue that at some altitude, an audible screaming into a numbnut student's ear is a bad idea. The audible can also serve to allow instructors to check on deployment altitude, allowing effective enforcement of pull altitude guidelines.

Whether the appropriate altitude is 3K, or 2K, or whatever, that is the only question to be debated in my opinion.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[ltdiver 3]

No. Don't like device dependency and a student that might try and rely on it, rather than thinking for themselves.

However, for those who believe it would be good dialed in at 2,000'.....if it -ever- sounds off in -my- student's ear at that altitude I'd hand them golf clubs and ask that they don't come back. Skydiving's not for them.

My same opinion of a Cypres fire on a no-pull.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[sundevil777 94]

Quote

However, for those who believe it would be good dialed in at 2,000'.....if it -ever- sounds off in -my- student's ear at that altitude I'd hand them golf clubs and ask that they don't come back. Skydiving's not for them.

I think that a lot of skydivers you now respect would fall into that category - pulled low when considered students.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[ltdiver 3]

Quote

Quote

However, for those who believe it would be good dialed in at 2,000'.....if it -ever- sounds off in -my- student's ear at that altitude I'd hand them golf clubs and ask that they don't come back. Skydiving's not for them.

I think that a lot of skydivers you now respect would fall into that category - pulled low when considered students.

Were they wearing AAD's or Dytters? I think not. They saved their own skin and I respect that.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[Conundrum 1]

I don't think so. I think it's important to learn altitude awareness by having to look at your altimeter instead of relying on an audible to let you know where you are.

[Daizey 0]

Hey Lance,

I actually had a short discussion with Darlene about the audibles they use...

she said that all of the student helmets are equipped with time-outs that are set for 3000 feet. All students should be open above this altitude and if they are open, it will NOT beep.

She said they use it only as an extra precaution and that students don't learn to rely on it, because they generally never hear it. It is just a backup.

*daizey*

[PhreeZone 15]

They better have been wearing AAD's, its required via the BSR's.

Cypres fires are way more common then most people realise. Even more common is FXC 12000 fires years ago.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[ltdiver 3]

Quote

They better have been wearing AAD's, its required via the BSR's.

Cypres fires are way more common then most people realise. Even more common is FXC 12000 fires years ago.

I'm referring to those rare individuals who were born and started skydiving -way- before AAD's were even dreamed of. Pat Works, for one...and there are alot more that I've met in person at Perris and Elsinore as well.

And for the AAD firing thing....my first reference was to a 'no-pull' scenario. They'd be given their walking papers if that happened.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[sundevil777 94]

Quote

I don't think so. I think it's important to learn altitude awareness by having to look at your altimeter instead of relying on an audible to let you know where you are.

A student dealing with malfunction, whether high or low speed, is likely to lose altitude awareness. Also, if they are dealing with instability they are likely to lose altitude awareness. I think it is totally inadequate to basically respond, but the student should learn not to lose altitude awareness without the benefit of an audible.

How about this for an analogy - stall warning indicators on airplanes should be disabled for students because they become dependant on them, they should be forced to 'feel' the stall. Maybe a bad analogy, but it is a start.

I am so surprised that there is any debate about this.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[councilman24 36]

For student malfunctions, audible have no purpose. Students should check their canopy and immediately initiate emergency procedures if appropriate. No audible involved. Hard/no pulls get two trys before initiating emergency procedures. No audibles involved. Audibles as used by experience skydivers note break off, and maybe hard deck for jumpers making decisions and maybe trying to fix problems.

Now, I do think audibles are appropriate for students used as a hard deck ONLY warning. "When you hear this pull your reserve ripcord." Or some such instruction depending on your preference. It gets one more wake up call before the cypres fires. Students shouldn't hear audibles during a normal jump. Too many people are relying on audibles, especially in attitudes where looking at the ground straight down may be tough. On one thread in the last few days two out cypres fire was blamed on a turned off or non working audible. And I think the other guy had lost his on a previous jump. Unacceptable.

Now I do jump an audible. Had a Para Alert on my camera in the early 80's. Had an original dytter I never trusted. Have a time out and a Protrack. Still use one most of the time. But, gradually finding myself relying on it and take it out from time to time just to wake myself back up.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[skydiverton 0]

NO.
Students shall develop altitude awareness. This is one of the most important survival skills a student needs.

I also do relative instuction with students. I forbid the students to use a pro-track because one of the issues studens have to learn is altitude awareness. This is more important than all the RW-exercises.

If they are used use them as a kind of flatline (2000ft) not as a reminder to open your parachute

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig