Helmets vs Cypres (was: Mid Air 3/20/04)

[stateofnature 0]

Wonder what the Anit-cypress people have to say about this one. I'm sure we'll be steppin in it soon.

[wmw999 2,149]

The anti-Cypres people aren't anti-Cypres by and large. This Cypres save is a good thing. But the Cypres save should be the last step after mistakes, and analyzing the mistakes is the best way to go.

If this is vindication for a Cypres, then it's easy to say that the rest of it is just "shit happens" when it isn't. You don't just accept the rest of the shit, you treat it like a fatality that didn't quite happen. Would you feel differently if there hadn't been a Cypres but he had opened his own reserve (he was reaching for it).

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[flyinghuntster 0]

Glad to hear everyone made it out in fair shape. I am about to begin training and your post, as well the others who post, help to shed light on how serious our sport is. Even if there isn't a clear cause or reason for some of the mishaps it can help to keep us aware of the hazards. Again glad to hear everyone is still with us.

[BETO74 0]

I was thinking the same thing......but I'm glad everybody is ok

http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html

[SouthernJumper 0]

well one thing i have to ask were they wearing helments? because im almost sure they wern't if they got knocked out

[skipro101 0]

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well one thing i have to ask were they wearing helments? because im almost sure they wern't if they got knocked out

Thats pretty ignorant. Helmets..ESPECIALLY shitty non-certified skydiving helmets..do little to prevent being knocked out.

Prevent scrapes and cuts..yea

but not much more.

even the certified helmets of skiing and other sports usually have a clause like "this protective device is not certified to provide any protection above 15mph"

heh

[stateofnature 0]

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Helmets..ESPECIALLY shitty non-certified skydiving helmets..do little to prevent being knocked out.

Haven't been jumping that long...ei??? Once you've been around the block a few times (awww hell, just once) the light will click...swear!!

[PhreeZone 15]

What? he's right. Helmets like the Boneheads do little in impact protection.

And the POP's boogie is in Lake Wales right now.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[stateofnature 0]

The helmet issue can get tossed all over, but I haven't found any educated findings. But I will offer my own education that everyone can do in the privacy of their own home.

1st, put on your helmet, place your head in the doorway, then close the door on your head. do it lightly, do it medium, then do it hard.

then repeat without the helmet.

OHHHH think it's just the edge thing. ok, lets try blunt trama. put on that helmet, fall forward, head bent forward, in the driveway and don't use your arms to catch yourself.

repeat without helmet

have friend with helmet ram into your head with helmet.

then do it without.

STILL THINK SO??? Afraid to try these tests? Den you just talkin shit baby.

[beej 0]

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well one thing i have to ask were they wearing helments? because im almost sure they wern't if they got knocked out

well i was once knocked out for 10/15 secs, and i was wearing a protec.

----------------------------------------------------
If the shit fits - wear it (blues brothers)--

[migliore 0]

Let's not change the topic and go off on a helmet tangent. The bottom line is a helmet does not generally lessen the level of impact on one's head. Helmets are designed to do three main things: 1) provide some damping (cushioning), 2) distribute forces to minimize sharp blows thereby spreading the forces over a larger surface area, and 3) prevent cuts, scrapes.

Some helmets do each of these things better than others.

Obviously, you can be knocked out cold with a helmet on...you are still being whacked in the head with something. But in most cases having a helmet on when getting hit in the head is a good thing.

Just my 2 cents.

Shane

[GravityGirl 0]

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well one thing i have to ask were they wearing helments? because im almost sure they wern't if they got knocked out

That's funny. I've been knocked out twice in freefall. Both times wearing a helmet. One full face, one open face.

Hmmmm....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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well one thing i have to ask were they wearing helments? because im almost sure they wern't if they got knocked out

If you are hit hard enough with the helmets we use in this sport, you can still have your bell run and have the light go out - or worse.

I had a helmet-to-helmet impact when someone hit my burble - I remember pain then the next thing I remember was waking back up in freefall (it was only for a second or two). This person was most likely 4-6 feet above me when this happened - and it also caused muscle damage in my neck and shoulder area.

It doesn't take much - and helmets don't always keep you safe.

Sorry for the tangent - back to the topic at hand.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[mr2mk1g 10]

Just look at the last report on here of a cypres fire - it was in England and the guy was wearing a full face helmet. Didn't stop him from waking up on his face in a field with his reserve blowing round him.

[freeflysteve 0]

excellent
helmet analysis

Swooping, huh? I love that stuff ... all the flashing lights and wailing sirens ... it's very exciting!

[R00tj00se 0]

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Didn't stop him from waking up on his face in a field with his reserve blowing round him.

Maybe if he hadn't had a helmet on he would have woken up on a cloud with a harp in his hand!!

Stateofnature - I like your humour - very good - gave me a giggle this morning!

[sducoach 0]

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The anti-Cypres people aren't anti-Cypres by and large.

Wendy,

Please explain this statement for us "slow" people. Is this like if you anti-drugs you aren't anti-drug by and large?

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Would you feel differently if there hadn't been a Cypres but he had opened his own reserve (he was reaching for it).

You know that for a fact that he was "saving himself" before the cypres fired? You observed his pull and the cypres fire?

Why are you "what if'ing" this? Who is attempting to "vindicate" a cypres? Seems you are the one with issues concerning safety equipment, cypres, helmets, etc.

Please simply state your position and get off the soap box. Educate people. Don't just attempt to anger them or change their minds to your position without facts.

You used to be an instructor did you not? Teach!

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[dnewcomer 0]

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Thats pretty ignorant. Helmets..ESPECIALLY shitty non-certified skydiving helmets..do little to prevent being knocked out.

You are right!

I was a trauma surgeon for 15 years. I can tell you and any neurosurgeon will agree: little protection from high impact injuries is afforded by skydiving helmets. State approved motorcycle helmets in PA have three to four times the padding of any skydiving helmet on the market. The best you can hope for is that the helmet will prevent some head lacerations.

When your head (even in a well padded helmet) traveling at a high rate of speed, >20 mph for instance, hits another object, the helmet's motion in space is stopped abruptly and your brain impacts the inside of your skull just as if it had impacted the object. Putting your head in a doorway and closing the door on it with or without a helmet is a meaningless test.

A more accurate test would be to allow someone to hit you in the head with a full baseball bat swing with and without your helmet.......obviously this is inadvisable and foolish. But it illustrates the minimal protection you get from a helmet in high impact head trauma. Helmets can provide some protection in low impacts, therefore we would all be crazy not to use them every time we skydive.

[Ron 7]

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Helmets can provide some protection in low impacts, therefore we would all be crazy not to use them every time we skydive

Or you could just avoid situations where that could happen.

The best plan is to do both avoid the situation, and wear a helmet. Then also jump a bigger canopy than you want and have a CYPRES.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Praetorian 1]

You know I did just that I asked a few Doctors I know.. and the universal answer, helmet good! as a good example look at a baseball helmet for batter, I've seen people hit by fastballs with and without, one was seriously hurt, one was shaken up and had a head ache .. and the faster pitch was against the helmet. The average skydiving helmet has better padding then a baseball helmet. the blunt force trama the brain gets against the skull is gonna be close to the same but your better off it the skull isnt broken and intruding into the brain. oh and basic physics state that if the duration of the impact is increased (say by the helmet deforming padding compressing) the peak force will be reduced. No helmet is gonna save a no pull skydiver thats not what they are for, but for those hard landings mid air impacts they will help. ask yourself this, can you learn from a dented/destroyed helmet .. can you learn from a destroyed skull?

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[PhreeZone 15]

My Bonehead helmet has less then 1/4 inch of cheap low density padding. How is that more protection then the HDPE foam thats an inch thick in batting helmets and Protecs?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[sducoach 0]

No helmet is designed to save you. Skydiving or not. They are designed to absorb the impact forces, distribute and dissipate them through their own destruction.

Basic physics.

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[wmw999 2,149]

OK, point by point.

I should probably have put the first "anti cypres" into quotes. Because my point, however poorly stated, was that whoever the previous posted considered to be "anti cypres" probably really isn't actually anti cypres. They just don't want to see it as an integral part of one's safety network -- it should be a last resort, like life insurance, and not homeowner's.

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You know that for a fact that he was "saving himself" before the cypres fired? You observed his pull and the cypres fire?

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(from original poster)
He says he first was aware of what had happened at 1000 feet and was going for reserve when his Cypres fired.

He might not have been in time. But he wasn't just trusting the equipment to save him, and he might have. That's what I based my statement on -- what was in the post.

I'm not on a soap box. I was reacting to the "anti cypres" statement -- again, I haven't seen anyone say that a cypres is a uniformly bad idea. If reliance on it suppresses other parts of incident analysis, then it's masking potential problems, and that's not good.

I hear about more cypres fires than I used to hear about no-pull bounces. That makes me wonder if some people are just kind of trusting it, and I'm not sure that's a good thing.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[MarkM 0]

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I hear about more cypres fires than I used to hear about no-pull bounces. That makes me wonder if some people are just kind of trusting it, and I'm not sure that's a good thing.

Probably just due to there being more people in the sport now. I couldn't imagine anyone having a "I guess I'll just wait for my Cypres to fire" attitude, while the ground is rushing up at them. But then I do tend to have a pretty upbeat view of humanity, so I could be wrong.

[billvon 2,435]

>I couldn't imagine anyone having a "I guess I'll just wait for my
>Cypres to fire" attitude, while the ground is rushing up at them.

I have seen two of these with my own eyes; had to pull the reserve on one of them, an experienced jumper with >100 jumps. She just gave up.