Hate my new rig!!

[gravitysucks 0]

After coming off student status I was thrilled to get a good deal on a rig of my own and start jumping it. I have four jumps now own my PD230 9-cell and I have yet to enjoy it. The thing seems to be affected by the slightest bit of turbulence and I was even getting kicked around yesterday when the winds were only 2-3 mph. I have no idea how to flare the thing and have had hard landings each time. Its responsive to toggle input but it seems to stall quickly if I go too deep and that has me freaked out a little on my landings. I've been practicing with it up high and still can't get the hang of it. The worst part is, now I have myself psyched out about jumping this rig and I can't stop thinking about it. I weigh 200 with gear and was previously jumping a Fury220 with stand up landings no problem. Now I'm glad I didn't go for something smaller like a 190. One instructor I trust told me that something like a 190 might give me better landings since it would be higher wing loaded and that the increase in speed would give me better flares on landing. SO my question is, should I stick it out with this canopy or ditch it now?

[Buried 0]

talk with your rigger. I've talked with a few people who had 230's which have had some taper issues or too small sliders resulting in harder openings.. probably depends on DOM.
Your rigger may be able to lengthen/shorten your toggles.

just curious why didn't you go with a 210? I totally understand you not going to a 190.

*edit - memory just hit, those taper/slider things were on sabres

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[katzurki 0]

I found my landings improved significantly when I went from a big-ass F-111 (~260) to a lesser-ass ZP (190). This is not advice, merely an observation :)
How "tired" is your PD 230?

[AndyMan 7]

Did you have your rigger inspect your canopy?

The PD230 9 cell is made from an older type of parachute fabric that doesn't age particularly well.

A canopy that big should be relatively easy to land, the fact that you're having trouble getting it to flare may indicate that the fabric is too porous to provide good lift.

Don't ever downsize to "get a better landing". That just doesn't make sense.

If the canopy fabric is worn out, then definately changing to a newer canopy, or one made with ZP fabric will definately help you.

Once you're nailing landings, then start working on the Downsizing checklist before going any smaller.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Ron 7]

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I found my landings improved significantly when I went from a big-ass F-111 (~260) to a lesser-ass ZP (190). This is not advice, merely an observation :)

This is more a part of the fabric, not size.

If someone tells you you need to down size to get a better landing they are simply not correct.

I have jumped as small as 69sqft to almost 300....I stood up both.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jlmiracle 7]

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If someone tells you you need to down size to get a better landing they are simply not correct.

Ron - what would be safer for the jumper a wore out big canopy with no flare or a slightly small zp canopy that isn't wore out. Just curious what your opinion is.

j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[Jeth 0]

Wow, I'm sorry your "new" rig isn't working out for you! I also purchased a PD 9-Cell (190). I haven't flown it yet. I have been a little nervous about it because my student rig is a ZP canopy. But mine is hardly used, only 70 jumps, so I hope it has a better flare than you're getting. How old is yours?

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site

[mattjw916 2]

Not making recommendations for the new-guy, but given a choice between a:

PD 9-cell 230 and a PD Sabre2 210 I'd go with the ZP canopy any day of the week, and twice on Sundays, even at the marginally higher risk level for his approximate w/l.

I don't particularly care for either of those canopies though. Just using them as examples.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[hottamaly 1]

Don't blame the "rig". It's possibly a worn out F-111.
Were you jumping a 0-perosity canopy during student status and switch to the F-111?
Sounds like a rigger could watch you land and see if it's a trim problem but don't blame the whole righ and don't let it freak you out. Sometimes it's just part of learning something new.
Be safe.

Skydiving gave me a reason to live
I'm not afraid of what I'll miss when I die...I'm afraid of what I'll miss as I live

[Ron 7]

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Ron - what would be safer for the jumper a wore out big canopy with no flare or a slightly small zp canopy that isn't wore out. Just curious what your opinion is.

The key is "wore out" vs "isn't wore" out.

And the "slightly smaller". In that case the new *slightly smaller* canopy is the safer one.

If I had a kid and I could put them out under a worn out F111 220sqft, or a Sabre 150....I'd put them on the larger canopy. Now if the choice was the same wore out 220, or a new Navigator 200. They would get the 200.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rehmwa 2]

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Ron - what would be safer for the jumper a wore out big canopy with no flare or a slightly small zp canopy that isn't wore out. Just curious what your opinion is.

I love it when people compare apples to sheepdogs.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jlmiracle 7]

Quote

Quote

Ron - what would be safer for the jumper a wore out big canopy with no flare or a slightly small zp canopy that isn't wore out. Just curious what your opinion is.

I love it when people compare apples to sheepdogs.

Do you have anything constructive to add? It was a simple question. Ron answered it. Do you want to debate something?

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[rehmwa 2]

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Do you have anything constructive to add?

Not today. I'm being contentious. Maybe tomorrow.

I'll let you know.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[EvilLurker 2]

I have a PD-210 and our WL is similar (I'm about 180 out the door). I could hold the toggles all the way down for about 5+ seconds before it stalled and it planes out and lands just fine (it doesn't even have a collapsible PC, which would be a big improvement I think).
You've got something wrong there, it's either worn out or has a serious line trim problem, in my opinion. I landed mine a couple of times on a high-wind day without even flaring it and stood it up. I always flared it smoothly (i.e not a 2-stage flare) and had good luck, but mine is pretty new (around 200 jumps). If I were you, I'd ask somebody with experience on F-111 canopies to jump it for you and get some quality feedback, then go from there. I never jumped a ragged-out PD 9 cell, so I can't speculate on what they exhibit, but I bet there are plenty of people here that can. Good luck and be careful, that sounds like a pretty dangerous situation. Mine is pretty "bumpy" in bad turbulance, but at 2-3 mph? Scary.

[mdrejhon 8]

That's quite a difference of experiences.

gravitysucks, I'm curious.... What was your previous canopy before your 230? You're only 0.87 wingloading and you say you can't land well on it. Ouch. I'll take that as a warning for myself. [I also realize it perhaps may be the porousity of a used canopy, too. I'll eventually be shopping for a used rig after my instructor recommendations]

katzurki, that's a dramatic downsize. What jump number was that? According to your profile, you say you are from Moscow, Russa and you are on a 1.29 wingloading. Around where I live, it would seem to be a definite no-no for me. Maybe things are different where you live (Not necessarily, I'm just curious).

It definitely won't affect me and my instructor's agreement on an eventual very appropriate minor downsize at the right time that both me and him are comfortable with. I am posting here to gain a better understanding and insight to good/bad decisions. That's why I also posted the 0.65 wingloading thread - simply to gain a better understanding.

[Minor edits made to clarify/correct some things]

By about jump number 40-50 I'll have my own rig if I can afford it. Hopefully. I want to be DAMN sure that I like the canopy before commiting to it. Obviously, my instructor will help here, but I'm also researching on the side too to better prepare me for talking to my instructor for upcoming talks about reasonable future goals.

***BEGIN CAUTION - CONFIRM WITH INSTRUCTOR***
Student to student chatter to be completely ignored. My instructor, the books, and several websites always mention that people have a tendancy to flare early when they panic. This is often a self-defeating thing with canopies, because you land harder if you flare too early, and as a result of that bad experience, you end up keeping flaring too early on the next jump, etc. BE WARNED, THIS MAY NOT BE WHAT YOU ARE DOING, BUT THIS IS SOMETHING TO ASK YOUR INSTRUCTOR - ASK FOR A VIDEO CRITIQUE OF YOUR LANDING AND FLARE.
***END CAUTION - CONFIRM WITH INSTRUCTOR***

[174fps 1]

Have a rigger check the trim, the break lines being too short
may cause the stalling,
How many jumps are there on the canopy?

Andrew

[gravitysucks 0]

Wow- lots to cover. Ok previous experience- I had 5 or 6 jumps on the Fury 220 which is F-111 7 cell and had good landings. Before that I had about 20 jumps on several different Wizard 275 7 cell canopies, also F-111, and had good landings (at least on the last dozen). I talked to my rigger and he said I was coming in starting my flare too high, holding quarter brakes too long and then taking it to full flare too late in the landing. I think some of it may be psychological because I experienced stalls when doing practice flares up high and I'm nervous about stalling my canopy 10 feet off the ground. As far as trim issues I let up on the toggles and there didn't appear to be any shortening of the lines. As far as canopy age, the DOM is 1996. The guy I bought it from was a whuffo who had never jumped it so I couldn't get an accurate history. My rigger and the people at the DZ who looked at it said I got a smokin deal so I'm glad about that. I don't know how many jumps on the canopy but it doesn't look too bad. Impossible to know exactly, really. Thanks for the advice thus far. I will try to get somebody at the DZ to jump the rig to get their take on it. Also one thought I had is that I can't really afford to buy a ZP main when I might only be putting 50 jumps on it before downsizing. Being the tightwad I am, I would like to hold on to this rig-IF the problem is with me and not my equipment.

[EvilLurker 2]

If you're going to get someone to jump it, have them take a look at whether or not the steering lines are deflecting the tail in full flight, because that would explain a lot right there, and it's easy to fix. I had to hold the toggles to my knees for about 5 plus seconds to stall my 210 until it bow-tied, just for an example. If your canopy is stalling much short of that, there is something wrong. Be careful.

[sundevil777 94]

The PD 9 cells are good canopies for what they are. I still have my 210 and can't justify getting rid of it, it still lands me well loaded much higher than you are doing.

However, they are more demanding of flare technique than a ZP canopy.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[slug 1]

Have a buddy video your landings

Then have someone you have confidence in review your landing technique on the video.

R.I.P.

[Jimbo 0]

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One instructor I trust told me that something like a 190 might give me better landings since it would be higher wing loaded and that the increase in speed would give me better flares on landing.

Sheesh. Find a new instructor. That's just plain scary.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[GreenLight 5]

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I never jumped a ragged-out PD 9 cell, so I can't speculate on what they exhibit, but I bet there are plenty of people here that can.

I jump a ragged out PD 210 with burn holes from too much smoke jumping. I had a brand new Triathlon and sold it after 50 jumps. Couldn't land it worth a crap. I can still land the 210 just fine with a little run out in no wind but it is time for a new canopy. Just waiting for PD Demo Days to come by again... Maybe a Spector this time?

I think you should have jumped the 230 a few times before you bought it... When I was a newbie I didn't buy a canopy untill I had my instructor jump it but that was 23 years ago. Then I jumped it twice and then purchased it. I don't know if you could get an instructor to jump your potential gear now or not.

Most people will allow you to demo gear before purchasing it.

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

[DanglesOZQld 0]

Give me a ZP anyday. Usually we suggest ex students to go with 190's if they are not too heavy and reasonably good with control.

I did however start with a laser 240 and loved that thing for hundreds of jumps (very few rigs around second hand at the time I was ready to downsize.)

The only thing I didn't like about the canopy was seeing all the others get back from a bad spot whereas I wasnt covering much ground at all!

BSBD! -Mark

PS -Maybe also get someone with more experience to jump yours and see what they think needs doing to it to make it better.......

"A Scar is just a Tattoo with a story!!!"

[EvilLurker 2]

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I had a brand new Triathlon and sold it after 50 jumps. Couldn't land it worth a crap.

Exactly the same experience I had, plus I got one opening so hard it laid me up for a month (actually, my neck still is somewhat screwed up). If you got to avoid that little treat, you're lucky.
So how did a ragged-out PD-210 fly? I'm thinking it didn't stall easily like he's describing, because I jumped some pretty ragged out student canopies, and they had a normal toggle stroke, I always thought.

[Avion 0]

Try a Spectre, they got loads of flare

All the F-111 and hybrid canopies I tried had significantly less flare than my Spectre.

Cheers