Hate my new rig!!

[bob.dino 0]

As an aside, the flare you get from your canopy is, among other things, a function of your airspeed.

[brothermuff65 0]

cant really understand why you,r haveing the trouble you might want to let your rigger check it out . i am only 142 lbs and i jump an fiii pd 210 and have for about 15 years and you should be able to land that canopy in no wind conditions without any problems maybe your lines have gotten out of trim , i have always had good soft openongs and great landings and fly very well in the winds i fly in and my limit is about 16 or 18 mph but i have jumped in a steady with no gust winds upto 20 mph .hope this helps you .pd f111 canopys have a very good track record over the years

till later have fun & love each other seeya mb65johnny gates

[NWPoul 1]

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If someone tells you you need to down size to get a better landing they are simply not correct.

Haven't enough experience to argue, but during my AFF it was a much more diffcult to me to make a good flare / soft landing on 260, 280 Navigators than on 220th Navigator (which flared just fine), untill I got some "skills" and can landing soft all these canopy...

Edit to add: When I discussed this with my Instructor He told me that it's a matter of WL and higher airspeed gives me more confident flare/landing

Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

[gravitysucks 0]

I had a revelation last night. I was thinking back to when my rig came in the mail and i was wearing it around the house like a kid on Christmas with a new bike and a foot of snow outside. And I realized, hey- this thing HAS saved my life every time I asked it to. And that made me happy. Anyways, I'm jumping tomorrow night and I'll try to get somebody else to jump it and to get some educated spectators to watch my approaches, then I'll advise again.

[Ron 7]

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Haven't enough experience to argue, but during my AFF it was a much more diffcult to me to make a good flare / soft landing on 260, 280 Navigators than on 220th Navigator (which flared just fine), untill I got some "skills" and can landing soft all these canopy...

Edit to add: When I discussed this with my Instructor He told me that it's a matter of WL and higher airspeed gives me more confident flare/landing

Read the post above yours:

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i am only 142 lbs and i jump an fiii pd 210 and have for about 15 years and you should be able to land that canopy in no wind conditions without any problems

.77 WL and he does fine. I have jumped .75 without a problem. Vector has people do solos under tandem rigs.

You don't need a small canopy to get a good flair. It is one of the most common misconceptions in skydiving.

A smaller canopy has less toggle pressure....That makes people think they are easier to land....No, they are easier to FLAIR. But the require much better timing and technique than a bigger canopy. A Stiletto 97 is very easy to flair, but would make a really crappy student canopy since it requires so much more skill to land.

From PD's website "Choosing the Right Canopy"

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Higher wing loading increases the speed of a canopy. Joe will have a faster forward speed and higher rate of descent under the 120 than he did on his 180. In fact, the smaller canopy will not be capable of flying as slowly as the 180. The 120 may penetrate better into strong winds, but may not glide as far in light winds or when running with the wind.
The smaller canopy will also turn more quickly, and lose more altitude in a turn. Joe will need to plan ahead, and will have less time to react if something goes wrong. The smaller canopy might level off or "swoop" farther on landing, but timing the flare will be more difficult, and crashing more painful. If Joe knows how to flare well, he may have more fun landing the smaller canopy. But if his landings have never been great, or he has trouble adjusting to the new canopy, his landings will almost certainly be worse......If you have problems landing, and believe a smaller canopy will help, you may want to read the first half of this article again.

From PD and "wing Load and its Effects":

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D. It is not necessary to heavily load a high performance canopy to make it fly and
land correctly. This is a common misconception even with many experts. If a person’s canopy is going the speed they are comfortable with, then that should be fine. If they’re not getting good landings on a properly designed canopy flown at a lower wing loading, they’re probably not flaring it correctly.

These two articals and more great reading Here

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[wmw999 2,175]

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77 WL and he does fine. I have jumped .75 without a problem. Vector has people do solos under tandem rigs.

You don't need a small canopy to get a good flair. It is one of the most common misconceptions in skydiving.

Didn't used to be. Of course, canopy design has changed -- they also used to all sink down like the good 7-cells they were. I have about 500 jumps on squares loaded at noticeably under 1:1, and stood up nearly all of them, in a variety of winds.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[NWPoul 1]

Yes I saw these articles...

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If they’re not getting good landings on a properly designed canopy flown at a lower wing loading, they’re probably not flaring it correctly.

That's the point! It was easy to land the 220th Nav softly when I had no experience at all andcan't flairing correctly the bigger Navigators just because of lack of skills. Certanly it can be just with me but guys who was on AFF prog with me fill the same (and we always concidered as luck if can get the rig with 220th on jump :) )

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A smaller canopy has less toggle pressure....That makes people think they are easier to land....No, they are easier to FLAIR. But the require much better timing and technique than a bigger canopy. A Stiletto 97 is very easy to flair, but would make a really crappy student canopy since it requires so much more skill to land.

Again it's just IMHO but It was more difficult to me to make flare in time on 260th than 220.

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A Stiletto 97 is very easy to flair, but would make a really crappy student canopy since it requires so much more skill to land.

Heh, It wasn't my student canopy, so I can't say much but I doubt that it would be easy to flare this stiletto loaded at 2.4

Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

[Ron 7]

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That's the point! It was easy to land the 220th Nav softly when I had no experience at all andcan't flairing correctly the bigger Navigators just because of lack of skills. Certanly it can be just with me but guys who was on AFF prog with me fill the same (and we always concidered as luck if can get the rig with 220th on jump :) )

You are missing this point.

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The *smaller canopy* might level off or "swoop" farther on landing, but timing the flare will be more difficult, and crashing more painful. If Joe knows how to flare well, he may have more fun landing the smaller canopy. But if his landings have never been great, or he has trouble adjusting to the new canopy, his landings will almost certainly be worse......If you have problems landing, and believe a smaller canopy will help, you may want to read the first half of this article again.

If you think the answer to better landings is a smaller canopy you are wrong. If you can't land the bigger canopy you should learn how to land it, before you try to go smaller.

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Heh, It wasn't my student canopy, so I can't say much but I doubt that it would be easy to flare this stiletto loaded at 2.4

A Stiletto at 2.0 was very easy to flare...Much easier than my Stiletto at 1.7.

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If they’re not getting good landings on a properly designed canopy flown at a lower wing loading, they’re probably not flaring it correctly.

Then the answer is learning to flair correctly, not going to a smaller canopy.

I don't know why people continue to believe in this fallicy. I think its just cause they want to be cool and jump smaller gear.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Again it's just IMHO but It was more difficult to me to make flare in time on 260th than 220.

??? Nav 260,280 was not planing out with me.

Nav220 was a different animal. In my case it required 2 stage flare.

I had 80+ jump on F111 canopies, 30+ on a Maverick(200sqft) ~WL 1.0. It was not planing out, but I could get an acceptable landing with it.

[JohnMitchell 14]

You guys are all correct about "Smaller is not better"

However, a worn out F-111 will not flare worth a damn, no matter what the wing loading. Time to cut the lines off and use it for a car cover. ZP canopies are so much more efficient and softer landing than F-111 for almost any jumper. The only reasons I can think of for F-111 mains is BASE and classic accuracy.

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[GreenLight 5]

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So how did a ragged-out PD-210 fly? I'm thinking it didn't stall easily like he's describing, because I jumped some pretty ragged out student canopies, and they had a normal toggle stroke, I always thought.

It still flies good! Lands good too if I do a 2 stage flare. Just has a little more of a desent rate as far as I can tell. Of course I'm used to it, not brand new to it. I'm gong to try out the Spectre next... I am old and want a nice landing canopy.

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

[NWPoul 1]

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If you think the answer to better landings is a smaller canopy you are wrong. If you can't land the bigger canopy you should learn how to land it, before you try to go smaller.

I started with 220th:) Again, I don't know much but IMHO there always is a "golden medium"

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A Stiletto at 2.0 was very easy to flare...Much easier than my Stiletto at 1.7.

I meant it wouldn't be easy for me at my first jumps (and it would be 2.4)

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I don't know why people continue to believe in this fallicy. I think its just cause they want to be cool and jump smaller gear

Just a little bit... seriously It wasn't my primary objective to be cool on first jumps and 220 isn't too small:)

Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

[EvilLurker 2]

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Anyways, I'm jumping tomorrow night and I'll try to get somebody else to jump it and to get some educated spectators to watch my approaches, then I'll advise again.

Okay, be careful. I'm betting you have it figured out by then.

[jumpwally 0]

Take a breath and send it to PD for a inspection. Nothing beats a professional opinion from the folks that designed and built it. Its a small price to pay,,and if it turns out to be garbage,,i'll bet out of loyalty they'll cut ya a deal on a similar demo. If your tooth hurts you go to the dentist right? Ron brings up a valid point and right away everyone wnats to split grey area hairs,,ggeezzzz, that can go on for weeks. In the mean time a 100 people could have jumped it and stood it up. Get the canopy checked out and then have someone you trust jump it,listen watch and learn and i'll bet you'll do fine. WTF people !!

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[Ron 7]

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However, a worn out F-111 will not flare worth a damn, no matter what the wing loading.

I agree...I went with the technique angle since he said that a rigger has looked at it.

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My rigger and the people at the DZ who looked at it said I got a smokin deal so I'm glad about that

I agree 100% with you that a worn out f111, or any canopy really, is not worth much more than a car cover. Or a ceiling cover...they look cool up there.

I just see so many people say that downsizing is the key to a good landing....I don't know why this bad advice stays alive.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334