bob.dino 0 #1 October 5, 2005 The problem I'm trying to solve: given a full Skyvan/Otter and lots of small groups, the freeflyers near the back have to open a little higher to make it back. A thousand or fifteen hundred feet doesn't sound like much, but over thousands of jumps that's a lot of freefall time given up. Not to mention that some of those freeflyers are flying Velocities, swooping the pond, and need to be on target by 1000'. Are curved jump-runs a sensible solution to this problem? What are the pros & cons? I've tried searching, but haven't turned up much of use. There's a little info on Chris Schindler's site, but it's not written from the perspective of a jumper. Insight from those with experience would be appreciated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #2 October 5, 2005 IMO, packing more jumpers into the landing area at the same time wouldn't be a good idea.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #3 October 5, 2005 Skydive Arizona has had some success with curved jump runs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nullified 0 #4 October 5, 2005 The Ranch has been doing that frequently lately. It seems to be working very well. Fly safe, Mike If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Superman32 0 #5 October 5, 2005 Woudn't you increase the chances of falling into each other" Inveniam Viam aut Faciam I'm back biatches! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #6 October 5, 2005 It seems to me that a curved jump run would really screw with you when your trying to track or face parallel to the jump run... FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #7 October 5, 2005 Thanks Bill & Mike. I've fired off emails to both SDAZ and The Ranch. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #8 October 5, 2005 QuoteThe problem I'm trying to solve: given a full Skyvan/Otter and lots of small groups, the freeflyers near the back have to open a little higher to make it back. A thousand or fifteen hundred feet doesn't sound like much, but over thousands of jumps that's a lot of freefall time given up. Not to mention that some of those freeflyers are flying Velocities, swooping the pond, and need to be on target by 1000'. Are curved jump-runs a sensible solution to this problem? What are the pros & cons? I've tried searching, but haven't turned up much of use. There's a little info on Chris Schindler's site, but it's not written from the perspective of a jumper. Insight from those with experience would be appreciated. There have been several times recently that I have exited in the last group out of the van/otter and quite often the pilot has started to curve the jump run by this point, although not always... Also personally speaking as I have only recently started to attempt the pond with a 270 approach, and don’t mind pulling a little higher, and it really is only a little. This gives me plenty of time to plan my set up, sort my gear out, and by the time I am setting up, everyone else who is landing in the E pit should have landed leaving me clear air space. Besides if you watch, most people that run the pond will sit up on brakes until everyone has landed, and will have pulled a few hundred feet higher anyway. So whether this time is spent flying back from a long spot because you were out last, or whether it is spent sitting about the DZ on brakes, probably doesn’t make that much of a difference. Also if we curve the jump run are we not at risk of over crowding the LZ with canopies… My 2 cents……..----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #9 October 5, 2005 > Woudn't you increase the chances of falling into each other . . . Not really. We're talking about a radius of a mile or so. > It seems to me that a curved jump run would really screw with you >when your trying to track or face parallel to the jump run... It does require more care on exit; you have to note which direction you are going when you exit. But people should be looking down anyway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #10 October 5, 2005 Quote > It seems to me that a curved jump run would really screw with you >when your trying to track or face parallel to the jump run... It does require more care on exit; you have to note which direction you are going when you exit. But people should be looking down anyway. mmm k.. yes, you look at what direction the plane is traveling when *you* exit... On a curved jump run, going parallel to where *you* exit could send you straight into where someone else ends up if they go parallel to where *they* exit could it not? How much of a curve are we talking? FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #11 October 5, 2005 >On a curved jump run, going parallel to where *you* exit could send you > straight into where someone else ends up if they go parallel to where >*they* exit could it not? Tracking parallel (i.e. along) jump run will cause collisions whether jump run is curved or not. Are you talking about perpindicular to jump run (i.e. at 90 degrees?) >How much of a curve are we talking? A radius of several miles, with say a 60-90 degree arc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #12 October 5, 2005 QuoteThere's a little info on Chris Schindler's site, but it's not written from the perspective of a jumper. Chris is a jumper so actually it is somewhat from the perspective of a skydiver. He used to fly in Monterey so I had the opportunity to be a passenger of his many times. Because he's a skydiver, he knows what good and bad spots are and sure enough, if you believe him when he turns on the green light, you will land in. (Seldom is he wrong about the spot) It looked weird the first time because I didn't know he was planning on banking the plane. (Everyone else did) While I was looking down, all I could think was, "This looks fine. Why are you going around?" The amount he would turn depended on groups. If there were many groups, he knew that one pass would probably end up with a go around so he did somewhat of a large U. If the climb outs took too long with fewer groups, he'd start the turn a little later, or made the turn itself tighter. People did not have trouble with separation. He seemed to always get it right. I'll send him a PM and ask if he'll look at this thread.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 22 #13 October 5, 2005 curved jumprun: the pink skyvan in austria uses this method to put out jumpers on a regular basis. never thought that this could be a problem. until i found myself under an open reserve in something like 11.000 feet (hybrid jump gone haywire, but thats a differnt story to be told somewhere else ) knowing that five tandem were to exit after our group scared the shit out of me -------->> after this experience i prefer the old fashioned straight approach The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #14 October 5, 2005 Curved jump runs can work, but they can also add a bit of complexity and risk. The primary key is to fly a wide radius turn, rather than a tight turn. Another key is to fly the long straight leg into the wind. Ideally, the final curve will only cover the last few jumpers, won’t complete to a 180, and won’t be established at the mid-point of the jumprun. Let’s assume the wind is from 360 and the pilot tracks a line of 360 (into the wind) and then quickly turns to 180 for a very tight downwind. The two jumpruns will be parallel and there will be a chance the earlier jumpers will have opened and already flown under the downwind leg of the continuing jumprun. I have been on several curving jumpruns where the pilot turned too quickly and placed the last part of the load on top of the first part. I’ve even been on a few where the pilot turned about 270 degrees and actually crossed over the first part of the jumprun. So, obviously the two sides of the jumprun need to be far enough apart to prevent this, and that’s where a big wide turn works best. Now let’s assume the wind is from 090 and the jumprun is 360 (the wind is from the right). As the first jumpers open, their parachutes will be pushed to the left. If the pilot makes a left curving jumprun to 180, the parachutes from the first segment may actually be blown below the second segment, even if the turn isn’t super tight. Keep in mind a jumprun can extend for a couple of minutes and the first/last jumpers could easily be in conflict. The lesson here is that if the initial jumprun is crosswind and the pilot really wants to do a curve, the curve should be made into the wind. Now let’s add a bit of discussion about separation between groups. If the wind is strong and the pilot curves to a downwind, the first groups (flying into the wind) will need to allow lots of time between groups because the ground speed is so low. As the pilot turns the curving 180 all the way to a downwind jumprun, the ground speed will increase, and the time between groups should be shortened. It’s also worth thinking about who the last jumpers are going to be. Sometimes the last jumpers are tandems who open high anyway, and the tandem instructors should be pretty heads up about what’s happening with the jumprun. Of course sometimes the last jumpers are beginners who are doing solos, and they will often be confused by the turning airplane. A pilot needs to think about the experience and opening altitude of the later jumpers if he makes a wide curving jumprun. I’ll also mention that the jumprun should always be calculated based on what’s below the airplane with an assumption that any jumper might have a super low opening. So, the jumprun should consider alternate landing areas for every skydiver from the exit point back to the drop zone. That’s true of a conventional straight line jumprun, and a curved jumprun. That’s a lot of stuff to think about when designing a jumprun. Curved jumpruns can work, but it takes some understanding to keep the process safe.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #15 October 5, 2005 Curved jump runs are common at Skydive Chicago if there are a lot of groups on board. They work very well and I'm not aware of any problems that they have caused..... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #16 October 5, 2005 Quote the freeflyers near the back have to open a little higher to make it back. So, speaking from the perspective of the 4way guy who often gets out first, how is the spot of the first out??? I often see RW groups screwing the rest of the load by not believing the pilot's interpretation of winds, not asking for an accurate climb out, or waiting until the spot looks perfect before climb out... The first out should not have a perfect spot, but a spot in which they can get back safely... The middle out should have the perfect spot... I kind of have proof... I watch every person who lands out, and it seems to always be the last out, where the first out has time to play over the peas (which at home is closer to the end of jump run)... I have seen the guys who only do RW seem to be more of "spot hogs" than the guys who have been the freeflier or AFF instructor and know what it is like to be the last out... Perhaps if you put the large way RW guys out last for one weekend and the freefliers became spot hogs, they would change their habits??? I myself, try to not be the problem when I am out first... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #17 October 5, 2005 Mike Mullins has flown curved jumpruns for as long as I can remember. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #18 October 5, 2005 Quote>On a curved jump run, going parallel to where *you* exit could send you > straight into where someone else ends up if they go parallel to where >*they* exit could it not? Tracking parallel (i.e. along) jump run will cause collisions whether jump run is curved or not. Are you talking about perpindicular to jump run (i.e. at 90 degrees?) lol, DOH! Yea, I'm an idiot, perpindicular.... FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nate_1979 9 #19 October 5, 2005 QuoteQuote the freeflyers near the back have to open a little higher to make it back. So, speaking from the perspective of the 4way guy who often gets out first, how is the spot of the first out??? I often see RW groups screwing the rest of the load by not believing the pilot's interpretation of winds, not asking for an accurate climb out, or waiting until the spot looks perfect before climb out... The first out should not have a perfect spot, but a spot in which they can get back safely... The middle out should have the perfect spot... I kind of have proof... I watch every person who lands out, and it seems to always be the last out, where the first out has time to play over the peas (which at home is closer to the end of jump run)... I have seen the guys who only do RW seem to be more of "spot hogs" than the guys who have been the freeflier or AFF instructor and know what it is like to be the last out... Perhaps if you put the large way RW guys out last for one weekend and the freefliers became spot hogs, they would change their habits??? I myself, try to not be the problem when I am out first... No, you dont need a perfect spot, but also keep in mind that on a normal jumprun the first out will have to fight the wind to get back and get blown away from the DZ in freefall, you can exit farther from the DZ at the tail end of jump run than you can on the front of jumprun. Of course this is not always the case and is why you should know what the winds are doing before you decide what a good spot is I dont ever just jump on green though, always gotta look, especially lately since the GPS has been broken FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #20 October 5, 2005 Quote I often see RW groups screwing the rest of the load by not believing the pilot's interpretation of winds, not asking for an accurate climb out, or waiting until the spot looks perfect before climb out... The first out should not have a perfect spot, but a spot in which they can get back safely... The middle out should have the perfect spot... Yeah, I've been on those loads where half the plane opens very long. The other problem in a big plane comes when groups don't begin their climbout until after the desired exit separation. Then the 1-2-3 GO count. One reason I like the KA over the otter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #21 October 5, 2005 I had the same feeling, they start climbing out when they would jump as solo after the previous group. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gemini 0 #22 October 5, 2005 Most of the RW groups at Spaceland take into consideration their climb out time for both the spot and separation. For example, the pilot is always notified of the first groups size so he can signal them to open the door earlier if they are a large group. The group then begins their climb out early and by the time everyone is in place, they should be at the proper exit point on the jumprun. The second group if also a large group, immediately begins their climb out upon exit of the first group. By the time the second group is set and counting, at least 10 seconds have passed since the first group exit. As the groups get smaller, delays in climb out become longer. I said most RW groups at the beginning. We do have one or two people who insist on being right over the hanger before they climb out oblivious to the fact that they hose almost everyone else on the plane. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #23 October 5, 2005 Quote have seen the guys who only do RW seem to be more of "spot hogs" than the guys who have been the freeflier or AFF instructor and know what it is like to be the last out You would be wrong. Everyone who is last bitches about who is first. When Zhills put the FF out first the RW folks bitched...Now that the RW goes first the FF bitch. A curved jump run can be done safely....However the best thing to do is know how to spot and the first group gets out a little short, the last a little long."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DRLOVE 0 #24 October 5, 2005 QuoteThe Ranch has been doing that frequently lately. It seems to be working very well. Fly safe, Mike[re=============================== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diverdriver 5 #25 October 5, 2005 QuoteQuote > It seems to me that a curved jump run would really screw with you >when your trying to track or face parallel to the jump run... It does require more care on exit; you have to note which direction you are going when you exit. But people should be looking down anyway. mmm k.. yes, you look at what direction the plane is traveling when *you* exit... On a curved jump run, going parallel to where *you* exit could send you straight into where someone else ends up if they go parallel to where *they* exit could it not? How much of a curve are we talking? This is why you need to communicate with your jump pilot when doing these tracking dives. They can alter their plan or suggest a direction to you. You come up with a common plan and then stick to it. A curved jumprun can really stretch things out. More time means more people will be landed by the time you open. I would suggest that you put a tracking dive out last (or last before tandems) and discuss which direction to go. The curved jumprun is used mostly on no wind days or very light winds. You can track in any direction almost and make it back. edit to add: NEVER EVER FLY OVER TERRITORY YOU JUST DROPPED ON! That is one rule your pilot should adhere to. I would fly a slight offset to being directly over the top. This would give me enough room in my "drop cone" (what I picture in my mind as usuable drop space in the horizontal plane) to make the turn and have people continue to exit. Like Hookit said, I would be turning and in his mind it was still a good spot. But of course that's the point. You fly a pattern to stay in usable area and don't get too long. At SDC the way the airport is set up it lent itself to a common crosswind jumprun which kept the ground speed up so that spacing between groups was constant because after your 180 you were still crosswind. At Monterey Bay it was a bit tougher due to airspace and topagraphy issue but a curved run and not necessarily a complete 180 was best. It's all situational with the DZ you have. What works best at SDC did not work at SMB but was similar. What works best at ZHills does not work at X-Keys. It all has to be worked out and it takes some getting used to by the jumpers. Many DZs teach that if the plane banks you are to stop exiting. More than once I was yelling "Go" because they stopped. I tried to always brief that if the light is on I feel it is still ok to exit. Again, you have to develop YOUR own method of communication and what is acceptable and what isn't. As for how I flew a hooked jumprun I would bank some and skid some. Your jump pilot may not like this at first and that's cool. But I would try to give the turn with the least amount of bank angle necessary. It takes practice.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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nate_1979 9 #19 October 5, 2005 QuoteQuote the freeflyers near the back have to open a little higher to make it back. So, speaking from the perspective of the 4way guy who often gets out first, how is the spot of the first out??? I often see RW groups screwing the rest of the load by not believing the pilot's interpretation of winds, not asking for an accurate climb out, or waiting until the spot looks perfect before climb out... The first out should not have a perfect spot, but a spot in which they can get back safely... The middle out should have the perfect spot... I kind of have proof... I watch every person who lands out, and it seems to always be the last out, where the first out has time to play over the peas (which at home is closer to the end of jump run)... I have seen the guys who only do RW seem to be more of "spot hogs" than the guys who have been the freeflier or AFF instructor and know what it is like to be the last out... Perhaps if you put the large way RW guys out last for one weekend and the freefliers became spot hogs, they would change their habits??? I myself, try to not be the problem when I am out first... No, you dont need a perfect spot, but also keep in mind that on a normal jumprun the first out will have to fight the wind to get back and get blown away from the DZ in freefall, you can exit farther from the DZ at the tail end of jump run than you can on the front of jumprun. Of course this is not always the case and is why you should know what the winds are doing before you decide what a good spot is I dont ever just jump on green though, always gotta look, especially lately since the GPS has been broken FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #20 October 5, 2005 Quote I often see RW groups screwing the rest of the load by not believing the pilot's interpretation of winds, not asking for an accurate climb out, or waiting until the spot looks perfect before climb out... The first out should not have a perfect spot, but a spot in which they can get back safely... The middle out should have the perfect spot... Yeah, I've been on those loads where half the plane opens very long. The other problem in a big plane comes when groups don't begin their climbout until after the desired exit separation. Then the 1-2-3 GO count. One reason I like the KA over the otter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #21 October 5, 2005 I had the same feeling, they start climbing out when they would jump as solo after the previous group. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #22 October 5, 2005 Most of the RW groups at Spaceland take into consideration their climb out time for both the spot and separation. For example, the pilot is always notified of the first groups size so he can signal them to open the door earlier if they are a large group. The group then begins their climb out early and by the time everyone is in place, they should be at the proper exit point on the jumprun. The second group if also a large group, immediately begins their climb out upon exit of the first group. By the time the second group is set and counting, at least 10 seconds have passed since the first group exit. As the groups get smaller, delays in climb out become longer. I said most RW groups at the beginning. We do have one or two people who insist on being right over the hanger before they climb out oblivious to the fact that they hose almost everyone else on the plane. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #23 October 5, 2005 Quote have seen the guys who only do RW seem to be more of "spot hogs" than the guys who have been the freeflier or AFF instructor and know what it is like to be the last out You would be wrong. Everyone who is last bitches about who is first. When Zhills put the FF out first the RW folks bitched...Now that the RW goes first the FF bitch. A curved jump run can be done safely....However the best thing to do is know how to spot and the first group gets out a little short, the last a little long."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DRLOVE 0 #24 October 5, 2005 QuoteThe Ranch has been doing that frequently lately. It seems to be working very well. Fly safe, Mike[re=============================== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #25 October 5, 2005 QuoteQuote > It seems to me that a curved jump run would really screw with you >when your trying to track or face parallel to the jump run... It does require more care on exit; you have to note which direction you are going when you exit. But people should be looking down anyway. mmm k.. yes, you look at what direction the plane is traveling when *you* exit... On a curved jump run, going parallel to where *you* exit could send you straight into where someone else ends up if they go parallel to where *they* exit could it not? How much of a curve are we talking? This is why you need to communicate with your jump pilot when doing these tracking dives. They can alter their plan or suggest a direction to you. You come up with a common plan and then stick to it. A curved jumprun can really stretch things out. More time means more people will be landed by the time you open. I would suggest that you put a tracking dive out last (or last before tandems) and discuss which direction to go. The curved jumprun is used mostly on no wind days or very light winds. You can track in any direction almost and make it back. edit to add: NEVER EVER FLY OVER TERRITORY YOU JUST DROPPED ON! That is one rule your pilot should adhere to. I would fly a slight offset to being directly over the top. This would give me enough room in my "drop cone" (what I picture in my mind as usuable drop space in the horizontal plane) to make the turn and have people continue to exit. Like Hookit said, I would be turning and in his mind it was still a good spot. But of course that's the point. You fly a pattern to stay in usable area and don't get too long. At SDC the way the airport is set up it lent itself to a common crosswind jumprun which kept the ground speed up so that spacing between groups was constant because after your 180 you were still crosswind. At Monterey Bay it was a bit tougher due to airspace and topagraphy issue but a curved run and not necessarily a complete 180 was best. It's all situational with the DZ you have. What works best at SDC did not work at SMB but was similar. What works best at ZHills does not work at X-Keys. It all has to be worked out and it takes some getting used to by the jumpers. Many DZs teach that if the plane banks you are to stop exiting. More than once I was yelling "Go" because they stopped. I tried to always brief that if the light is on I feel it is still ok to exit. Again, you have to develop YOUR own method of communication and what is acceptable and what isn't. As for how I flew a hooked jumprun I would bank some and skid some. Your jump pilot may not like this at first and that's cool. But I would try to give the turn with the least amount of bank angle necessary. It takes practice.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
