billvon 2,426 #26 October 5, 2005 >As for how I flew a hooked jumprun I would bank some and skid some. That would seem a bit odd. A coordinated banked turn would result in the people in the door not experiencing anything different. (They'd slide down the 'hill' slightly differently, but the exit would be identical.) A skid would result in the people in the door perceiving a 'tilt' to the door, what you would get if you tilted a mockup over. I would think the latter would be more difficult for skydivers to work with. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #27 October 5, 2005 Quote>As for how I flew a hooked jumprun I would bank some and skid some. That would seem a bit odd. A coordinated banked turn would result in the people in the door not experiencing anything different. (They'd slide down the 'hill' slightly differently, but the exit would be identical.) A skid would result in the people in the door perceiving a 'tilt' to the door, what you would get if you tilted a mockup over. I would think the latter would be more difficult for skydivers to work with. On the otter I power with 20 lbs Tq on the right and pull back to about 10ish on the left. There is a natural skid doing this so I fly a bit uncoordinated and let the right engine pull us around the curve. If I fly coordinated I would need more bank to gate the same degree of turn per minute. I'm trying to keep the floor as level as possible for the tandems making their way to the back of the plane.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #28 October 5, 2005 Thanks one and all for the information; it's invaluable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,426 #29 October 6, 2005 >If I fly coordinated I would need more bank to gate the same >degree of turn per minute. Well, right. But the centripedal force you need to turn X degrees per second is always the same at a given speed. That force can either act 'downwards' towards the floor (coordinated turn) or sideways (uncoordinated turn.) The uncoordinated turn is perceived as a change in deck angle; the coordinated turn is not. Same overall forces in both cases though. I'm just suprised that the tandems prefer a deck angle to a flat deck. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #30 October 6, 2005 Quote>If I fly coordinated I would need more bank to gate the same >degree of turn per minute. Well, right. But the centripedal force you need to turn X degrees per second is always the same at a given speed. That force can either act 'downwards' towards the floor (coordinated turn) or sideways (uncoordinated turn.) The uncoordinated turn is perceived as a change in deck angle; the coordinated turn is not. Same overall forces in both cases though. I'm just suprised that the tandems prefer a deck angle to a flat deck. Well Bill, that's how I did it for about 2,000 hours in the Otter. It seemed to get good results and no one complained ever about it. I'm sure that flying the turn coordinated is what some others would prefer so not saying one way is right or wrong. Just different.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,646 #31 October 6, 2005 Quote>If I fly coordinated I would need more bank to gate the same >degree of turn per minute. Well, right. But the centripedal force you need to turn X degrees per second is always the same at a given speed. That force can either act 'downwards' towards the floor (coordinated turn) or sideways (uncoordinated turn.) The uncoordinated turn is perceived as a change in deck angle; the coordinated turn is not. Same overall forces in both cases though. I'm just suprised that the tandems prefer a deck angle to a flat deck. I jumped a lot with Chris flying, and with pilots he taught, and it really isn't an issue. I've often been out last and during the turn when making wingsuit jumps.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyberdyber 0 #32 October 6, 2005 I've flown jumpers for about 1,400 hours (been flying longer as a flight instructor), have 1500 jumps spread among all disciplines and fly a Velo 84. I often will turn toward the upwind side in the latter half of the jump run if I think the jumpers are going to get strung out. At Thomaston, we have a 6300 foot runway and a parallel jump run. This ensures that jumpers can at least make it to some part of the airport and makes them easier to find when landing off the main LZ. When I don't have that as a clear option, I often run perpendicular to the winds aloft and offset to the upwind side. This usually leaves more jumpers in the "wind cone" (as HALO guys like to call it) without putting them so far out. It also makes curving the jump run into the wind an easy option. Remember, the jumpers only feel the relative wind so it makes no real difference to them if I only bank up to about 15 degrees or less. Skidding the plane will disturb some of the airflow, so I don't think I would do it with a 4 way team but tandems woudn't know the difference. I would not recommend banking until the aircraft had some weight out though. The plane is already at a slow speed/ high angle of attack and stall speed increases with higher bank angles. Heavy jumper loads require higher angles of attack to sustain lift to begin with. If you were to have a weight shift to aft Center of Gravity you could get into a really nasty stall and aft CG spin even easier than normal. Or you can do what I do and just let the aircraft sink at about 1000 FPM. And anyone that has ever flown jumpers in a 182 knows that you fly completely uncoordinated if you want to keep the aircraft flying a straight ground track. For what it's worth. Finally, if any group is spot hogging or second guessing the spot to the detrement of the rest of the plane I warn them once, then I'll ground them. I know...I'm an asshole! http://www.skydiveatlanta.com http://www.musiccityskydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
btucker 0 #33 October 6, 2005 when the freeflyers stop goofing off and flashing the 3minute light as a joke the 8way will start stacking up quicker QuoteThe problem I'm trying to solve: given a full Skyvan/Otter and lots of small groups, the freeflyers near the back have to open a little higher to make it back. A thousand or fifteen hundred feet doesn't sound like much, but over thousands of jumps that's a lot of freefall time given up. Not to mention that some of those freeflyers are flying Velocities, swooping the pond, and need to be on target by 1000'. Are curved jump-runs a sensible solution to this problem? What are the pros & cons? I've tried searching, but haven't turned up much of use. There's a little info on Chris Schindler's site, but it's not written from the perspective of a jumper. Insight from those with experience would be appreciated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
