ernguru 0 #26 December 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteYou'll fuck your hearing because you'll need it that loud. You'll cause a canopy collision because you didn't hear the warning shouts. You'll do something else wrong because you're concentrating on it/fiddling with buttons when you should by concentrating on not dieing. If it has a hard drive it won't work at altitude and you run the risk of killing it permanently just by turning it on at altitude. Course it'd probably work out just fine most of the time... I don't like counting on "probably" my self but each to their own. 100% agree its a bad idea. Some claim to be able to function just fine. Avoiding problems using "Other methods"....But why remove a very good method that may save your life? CRW folks...Whats the number ONE thing to have in a wrap? Communication. And if you do run into someone its really hard to talk when you have an iPod in your ear. I'm with you on this one Ron. Bad idea. Rather get a cool video of you being safe then add the music to show to your buddies. You're adding to many more risks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
karenmeal 0 #27 December 6, 2005 What about full-face helmets? Those certainly inhibit the ability to communicate. Not only can you not see facial expressions, but its also hard for someone wearing a full face helmet to hear other people! Should people not wear full face helmets so that they can make certain that they hear impending canopy collisions? I don't put myself in a position where I need to rely on my hearing.. When I am under canopy my head is on a constant swivel, counting and recounting the other canopies in the air. I know the flying styles of the people who share my airspace, and I know what their approximate wing-loading is. I am very assertive in asking the people who share my airspace to give me plenty of room in the air so that I can feel comfortable. I jump with the same group of people most of the time, so my friends know to give me room under canopy. I would not jump with my mp3 player at a new DZ, at a boogie, or when there was much traffic in the air. I agree, it could potentially be distracting. But most of my jumps are out of 182's or out of a caravan, that is usually loaded with tandems. I don't consider the occasional jump with music to be un-safe. I feel like I am an extremely safety conscious skydiver and know when something like music under canopy is appropriate and when it is inappropriate. So that's what I have to say about that. My one jump with music sticks out in my head as one of my favorite skydives. What an awesome jump. I certainly intend to repeat it, and if my friends are also interested in jumping with music, I will help them find a safe way to do it. Karen "Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #28 December 6, 2005 QuoteWhat's your oppinion about the effect of altitude on hardrives? I just read a forum where someone mention heads prone to crashing over 8,500 feet because "there is not enough air to properly float the heads." Instead of asking on the Internet, why not read a manual? I'll even make it easy for you: Here's the manual for the IBM Microdrive, which is the most common microdrive on the market. It's used in the IPOD, and in countless CF-type cards. http://www.hitachigst.com/tech/techlib.nsf/techdocs/6EF902390528609A87256AC000679FD3/$file/dscm_sp40.PDF Check out page 21. Trust me that Seagate and Maxtor have similar specifications in their hard drives, both micro and fullsize. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #29 December 7, 2005 agreed.... All the people that say it is a bad idea, do you all drive your cars down the freeway with the stereo on?? i bet you do, I do.. Do you constantly crash into other cars because you cant "hear" them??? no becuase you use your "eyes" Now I dont disagree that you can loose focus whilst whilst listening to your fav tunes, but lets be honest, if I can Skate, ride my bike, drive my car, walk down the street, sit at my desk concentrate and do my job all whilst listening to an ipod, i can sure as hell skydive.... probably not a good idea to listen to an ipod whilst doing your AFF, but once you have some experience then why not...----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #30 December 7, 2005 QuoteIf it has a hard drive it won't work at altitude and you run the risk of killing it permanently just by turning it on at altitude. What makes you think that?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #31 December 7, 2005 QuoteWhat makes you think that? I used to work for Seagate Technology, as an Associate Engineer in their tape and disc division, so allow me to answer this one... Hard drives require a certain amount of atmospheric density to operate properly. This is because the read / write heads actually float on a cusion of air just a few micrometers above the surface of the platter. This cushion of air is generated on the platter because it's an "air-bearing surface". Now that we have that out of the way, if you were to take a hard drive above 10,000ft MSL, there's a strong chance you'll damage the disc in one of two ways: 1. The air density is too low and the head slaps the platter upon initialization. The platter will be moving at a minimum of 5400RPM, up to 10,000RPM in higher-end drives. The head contacting the surface at just 5400RPM will still leave a hell of a gouge and destroy the head. 2. The air-bearing surface isn't strong enough and a jolt that would be acceptable during normal operating specs causes a head slap and subsequent crash as outlined above. Any questions? edited to fix: Grr, I misspelled cushion.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #32 December 7, 2005 QuoteWhat about full-face helmets? Those certainly inhibit the ability to communicate. Not only can you not see facial expressions, but its also hard for someone wearing a full face helmet to hear other people! Yep, but full face helemts also provide a benefit to saftey as well. Something an iPod does not do. QuoteI don't put myself in a position where I need to rely on my hearing.. When I am under canopy my head is on a constant swivel, counting and recounting the other canopies in the air. I know the flying styles of the people who share my airspace, and I know what their approximate wing-loading is. I am very assertive in asking the people who share my airspace to give me plenty of room in the air so that I can feel comfortable. I jump with the same group of people most of the time, so my friends know to give me room under canopy. Every single person who has died in this sport thought they would be ok. From the guy that failed to pull his main to the guy that hooked his canopy in....They all thought they were OK doing what they did."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mmytacism 0 #33 December 7, 2005 mr2mk1g is correct. There is a reason that Apple specifies a maximum operating altitude of 10,000 feet (3,000 meters) for the iPod. Hard drives rely on air pressure to maintain their read/write heads at a proper flying height above the disk. At high altitudes, the air pressure is too low to support the flying height, so the heads may physically hit the disk's surface (called a head crash). This usually = substantial data loss. Of course, if the iPod is turned off, you shouldn't have anything to worry about (from a technological standpoint). You could wait to turn it on until you're under canopy (if that's possible--I'm a new jumper--but even if it is, I'm not necessary advocating it). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #34 December 7, 2005 Before iPods (yes back in the Stone Age) and when I was jumping alone I used to take a portable CD player on night building jumps. I would listen to "(We Play) Underneath the Radar" by Underground which I always felt was very apropos to BASE (see lyrics below.) The first time I tried it I hadn't done many solos and was probably trying to focus on something besides the jump. I geared up and hung the player around my neck and down my shirt. I didn’t have a helmet and used a headband to secure the headphones. I looked over and down into the big dark gulp and all was clear. I fiddled with the volume and tone but all I was doing is stalling. I climbed over the safety cables (these should really be called danger cables) and I just stood there. There's no going back once you climb over the cables (unless something really bad happens like you zap your rig or a cop stops their car below to write a report or something.) The view was breathtaking and it's amazing how calm you can be with just your heels holding you forty stories above the street. BASE has always scared me more just thinking about it but once you're "in the moment" (as we used to say in the old days) it's a wondrous feeling. I checked the street one more time and saw no one and no cars. Jumping alone is enjoyable but there is no mechanism to tell you it's your turn or your time to launch. You think about going, but nothing stops you from just hanging out another few moments. The disc player was cranking and working fine and all of a sudden the lyric "See ya later, see ya later" came out of the machine, through my ears, and into my brain, and I just stepped off . . . UNDERNEATH THE RADAR by Underground Unknown Unseen We live underneath the radar No sign - on screen We dance underneath the radar Between the walls - well hey We're just too small to make a fuss about it Did something fall? Well hey What is the point in losin' sleep about it? See ya later - see ya later Hip-a-no-no-no-no Hip-a-no-no-no-no See ya later - call me We dance underneath the radar We live underneath the bomb When you live underneath the radar There's no way that you're ever gonna get far (So get hip) We speak Unheard Like ants we dance between the towers We sleep They move Come sailin' over the horizon Between the walls - well hey We're just too small to make a fuss about it Did something fall? Well hey What is the point in losin' sleep about it? See ya later - see ya later Hip a-no-no-no-no Hip-a-no-no-no-no See ya later - call me We dance underneath the radar We live underneath the bomb When you live underneath the radar There's no way that you're ever gonna get far (So get hip) He says i am the doctor In a B52 I come across the horizon Drop my love on you I'm gonna W-O-O-O-O-O ya call - watch out! I'm gonna W-O-O-O-O-O ya call See ya later! See ya later - see ya later Hip a-no-no-no-no Hip-a-no-no-no-no See ya later - call me Between the walls - well hey We're just too small to make a fuss about it Did something fall? Well hey What is the point in losin' sleep about it? We dance underneath the radar We live underneath the bomb When you live underneath the radar There's no way that you're ever gonna get far So get hip NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ematteo 0 #35 December 7, 2005 What about ski resorts? I regularly use my ipod skiing. At Squaw this gets me close to 10,000 feet. Both Alta and JH are over 10,000. Am I flirting with danger? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #36 December 7, 2005 QuoteWhat about ski resorts? I regularly use my ipod skiing. At Squaw this gets me close to 10,000 feet. Both Alta and JH are over 10,000. Am I flirting with danger? Yup, you're flirting. It may never break, or it could mess up next time. The good thing about hard-drives for portable applications is that they're seriously over-built and over-engineered, especially when it comes to shock-protection and error correction.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #37 December 7, 2005 A thing to remember about iPods is that their hard drives don't run constantly... they read ahead, fill up the memory, then shut down to increase battery life. Oftentimes when a company lists a max of something it really just means that they have only tested it to the extent that they list in the specs. i.e. they didn't test it to failure. That said, I'm willing to bet that an iPod will work fine at higher alitudes but there is a risk of damage or failure as others have pointed out. The battery will also won't work as effectively in the extreme cold either, obviously.NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #38 December 7, 2005 Quote What about ski resorts? I regularly use my ipod skiing. At Squaw this gets me close to 10,000 feet. All of the manufacturers state 10,000 feet - so taking it to 10,000 feet is fine. 15,000 is 50% over published maximums. Taking it to 15,000 will pretty much guaranty a failure over a handfull of jumps - and no, the Ipod probably won't tell you when the heads impact, so you might not even know about it. Only later, when you notice songs won't play will you figure it out. Taking it to 13,5 (MSL) is less dangerous than 15,000... but it's still 35% over published maximums - definately not smart. Remember all these altitudes are MSL - not AGL. Even though Perris Valley only flies to 12,500 AGL, they're actually going to close to 14,000 MSL since field level is 1,500. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mmytacism 0 #39 December 7, 2005 QuoteA thing to remember about iPods is that their hard drives don't run constantly... they read ahead, fill up the memory, then shut down to increase battery life. Oftentimes when a company lists a max of something it really just means that they have only tested it to the extent that they list in the specs. i.e. they didn't test it to failure. That said, I'm willing to bet that an iPod will work fine at higher alitudes but there is a risk of damage or failure as others have pointed out. The battery will also won't work as effectively in the extreme cold either, obviously. Good points. Interestingly, Apple's maximum altitude for the iPod Nano is also 10,000 feet, even though the Nano uses flash memory--which is built to tolerate extreme atmospheric conditions--instead of a hard disk drive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtval 0 #40 December 7, 2005 After reading everyones posts here. I still prefer not to be in the air with anyone who is listening to their headphones. I can understand the urge to want to play with the ipod for some special occasions etc., but I woudl prefer to know that if I am jumping with someone there is nothing distracting them. same goes for any group of skydivers who jump after I do or open higher and end up above me while under canopy. sure me head is on a swivel but I prefer not to fell the need to worry about someone who may or may not be perfectly safe with headphones. I ESPECIALLY don't want to encounter any kind of entanglement, PERIOD. but headphones won't help that situation at allMy photos My Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #41 December 7, 2005 <15,000 is 50% over published maximums>> Is that so? I didn't think that the pressure decreased linearly.... If so, the difference in pressure would be greater than 50% at 15k .vs. 10k... (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eule 0 #42 December 7, 2005 QuoteI didn't think that the pressure decreased linearly.... If so, the difference in pressure would be greater than 50% at 15k .vs. 10k... It's linear over the altitudes of interest to most skydivers. From http://mtp.jpl.nasa.gov/notes/altitude/StdAtmos1976.html , from 0 to about 36,000 feet, the pressure (and density) decreases are linear. They are linear from 36,000 to about 65,000 too, just at a different rate. At 18,000 feet, the air density is about half of what it is at sea level. "It's only a model!" "Shh." Local conditions (fronts, winds, thunderstorms, goose farts) may make for different conditions than the "standard" atmosphere above. EulePLF does not stand for Please Land on Face. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stobed 0 #43 December 7, 2005 Has anyone tried something like these two: http://www.stoneaudio.co.uk/stoneaudio/products/browser2.asp?ManufacturerID=334 http://music1online.com/she4eabforip.html Would they work in the air? Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ntrprnr 0 #44 December 7, 2005 Plane is pressurized - wouldn't affect it on a commercial flight. Much worse to run it through Xray all the time (spoken like a true frequent business flier.) not because of the x-rays, but because of the TSA idiots bouncing the laptop all around._______________ "Why'd you track away at 7,000 feet?" "Even in freefall, I have commitment issues." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #45 December 7, 2005 Quote Good points. Interestingly, Apple's maximum altitude for the iPod Nano is also 10,000 feet, even though the Nano uses flash memory--which is built to tolerate extreme atmospheric conditions--instead of a hard disk drive. Several of my good friends work at Apple, people I met when I was workign for the Mac Business Unit at Microsoft. One of these people worked on the Nano, and he flat out told me the reason it's only rated to 10k is because they didn't bother testing it any higher than that. I offered to do it for them with my Nano cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrBrant 0 #46 December 7, 2005 well, the nano shouldn't really matter in the same way. It's solid-state, (no hard-drive) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,436 #47 December 7, 2005 >Should people not wear full face helmets so that they can make >certain that they hear impending canopy collisions? I find I can hear BETTER after opening when I use a full-face helmet. Why? Because my ears aren't ringing from the freefall. Your ears are pretty good at AGC, which is an engineering term for "setting their own levels." Which means that when you wear a helmet, once your ears adjust, you hear almost as well 'through' the helmet, because your ears have gotten more sensitive. But they cannot mute a source like music to hear a softer noise like a canopy opening nearby. Not to say it's unsafe, but it has to be approached with caution. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #48 December 7, 2005 Quotewell, the nano shouldn't really matter in the same way. It's solid-state, (no hard-drive) Yeah, I know, but he specifically mentioned the Nano, so I thought I'd respond to that.cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #49 December 8, 2005 Quote 15,000 is 50% over published maximums. Taking it to 15,000 will pretty much guaranty a failure over a handfull of jumps Guaranteed? Hardly. Before the Ipod era scores of people used microdrives in digital cameras on high Sierra peaks - that's up to 14.5. Less continuous use, but more starts and stops. 10k is a testing level - all may say it, but no reason to test higher for the people of Quito. Some designs should tolerate 50% over better than others. But to be safe, the nano does the job rather nicely. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #50 December 8, 2005 For the record, I've been on multiple loads with a guy using his iPod all the way to 15,000, and that was with a ground elevation of 1,500 (so 16,500 to sea). Probably not the best thing for the unit, but, it worked.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
