Deathcamp BASE/Skydive

[Calvin19 0]

So,
Hypotheticaly, we take a heads up guy or girl, No skydives, No paragliding...

After giving hours worth of ground training, showing film of everything, a canopy Kiteing class, Exit Practice in a pool, Specific to each Option, and assuming we did it only once...


What would be Safer, A short delay base jump from a bridge over water with planned water landing

OR- an unassisted Skydive from 5000', with Cypress. No AFF instructors, no static line, small cessna door.

both with large Canopies with a wing loading of .5/1.

Not gonna do it, but Some BASE freinds and I were discussing it last night, and we could not conclude.
...................................

Posted in BASE forums, and want to try it here.
PS-deathcamp is a jokeing terms base jumpers use to describe teaching people to BASE jump with no skydiving experience.

[Calvin19 0]

PS, all you airplane jumpy people take a look at what we said in the BASE forum, kinda strange.

-SPACE-

[Superman32 0]

At first, I quickly said that base was more dangerous, but the more I think about it, the more complicated it gets. I think it also would depend if it were a hop n' pop from 5k or a normal delay.

Inveniam Viam aut Faciam
I'm back biatches!

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I think it also would depend if it were a hop n' pop from 5k or a normal delay.

Why should that matter? To me it's what the student does under canopy which is going to have the biggest impact. Oh did I just say impact? What's going to hurt more if the student fucks up low to the ground, water or the hard earth? Calvin19 isn't asking about is skydiving safer than BASE? He's asking is a first jump BASE student with a planned water landing safer (with a boat ready to pluck the student from the slow moving river) than a skydiving student having to land in their regular DZ landing area. With that in mind, it should be pretty obvious which jump is less dangerous. The water landing is much more forgiving ...

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CrazyL 0]

What do you want to hear? Neither one is safe. BASE./SKYDIVE. and SAFE. Do not belong in the same sentence. BASE,Skydive,and Blue Skies Black Death! Now that's more like it!

[PhreeZone 15]

Water landing at the bridge makes all the difference in the world. Now tell them they have to do a 4 second delay stowed off the NRG and hit land... the picture totally changes. Just look at how many experienced people ended up in the trees this year.

Air Force teaches their students that exact method for their first skydive. Days and days of classroom learning and theory and then they do a 10 second delay solo for thier first jump. The program works from all accounts due to the massive amounts of training.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Calvin19 0]

"Air Force teaches their students that exact method for their first skydive. Days and days of classroom learning and theory and then they do a 10 second delay solo for thier first jump. The program works from all accounts due to the massive amounts of training. "


My exact basis for this post

-SPACE-

[Ron 7]

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What's going to hurt more if the student fucks up low to the ground, water or the hard earth?

A water landing carries less risk due to impact.

However, I'd have to say that the skydive would be the safer option. I base this on the fact that with a skydive the student does not have to avoid a cliff, building, bridge...ect in freefall or under canopy.

Also if the student pulls at say 4 grand, then he has 4 grand to play with and learn the canopy.

The Airforce has taught this way for years. And a good FJC (in both methods) teaches the student all the really need to know.

That being said, I think BOTH can be done.

I'd give the nod to the skydive being the safer of the two based on the Airforces track record, both using big canopies, and the skydive having a CYPRES...My answer would not change even without the CYPRES, but with it we have a really good chance of a good canopy that we don't get with BASE.

It should be noted that while I do have skydiving "I" ratings that I only have 2 BASE jumps and can't really speak about BASE as an expert....So this is just my opinion anyway. But I think BASE is more difficult/dangerous than skydiving. So I think it would naturally carry over to this case.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Eule 0]

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What would be Safer, A short delay base jump from a bridge over
water with planned water landing OR- an unassisted Skydive from 5000',
with Cypress. No AFF instructors, no static line, small cessna door.

It depends. :)

Caution: low jump numbers here, and I know nearly nothing about BASE.
I also haven't looked at the replies in the BASE forum.

One way to look at it: when does the jumper screw up?

At or just before landing (low turn, flare high/low/not at all, no PLF):
Probably BASE. For falls of just a few feet, it's better to fall in the
water than on the ground. (Assumes the water is deep enough.)

Between opening and landing (screwing up canopy control, not flying
to the right landing spot): The BASE jumper will always have the obstacle
of the bridge supports. Otherwise, fairly dependent on landing area. If
the skydiver has flat grass for miles around and the BASE jumper has a
river 30 feet wide and six feet deep, the skydive is probably safer. On
the other hand, if the BASE jumper is in the middle of a 640-acre, 30
foot deep lake, and the skydiver has civilization (obstacles) surrounding
a 1-acre landing area, the BASE jump is probably safer.

At opening (incorrect response to malfunction): Skydive. Even if the
skydiver is fighting a main mal and doesn't cut away, I think he's got
a better chance of getting _something_ over his head (via the Cypres)
that will slow him down.

At pull time (hard pull, bad body position): Probably skydive. The
skydiver has more time to fix something like mondo line twists, and
has the option of cutting away a really badly screwed up main. Also
the main might have gotten him upright enough that his body position
won't get too screwed up in the time between cutting away and pulling
the reserve. For a no pull, the Cypres might be able to help, but the
BASE jumper is done.

Between exit and pull time: Mostly covered by the above. The BASE
jumper has less time to get in a bad position but also less time to
get out of it. I am thinking of something like the time required to
go totally head-down, but the problem with this doesn't really show
up until you pull and get whipped around.

At exit: Depends on the configuration of the bridge and the exit
method from the Cessna. If the BASE jumper is jumping from the
lowest high point on the bridge structure, the act of stepping forward
enough to get off of the bridge will probably cause him to clear all
of the bridge. If the skydiver is going to dive out the door of a 182
to the rear, he will probably clear the strut, gear, and tail. But if the
BASE jumper is jumping from halfway between the lowest high point
and the road (or tracks), he's got more bridge in his way. Same if
the skydiver is going to stand on the strut and step backwards.
If the BASE jumper is knocked unconscious, he's pretty much done.
An unconscious skydiver has a chance to get a good canopy via the
Cypres.

You might be able to weight the above by the relative frequency of
the various things. Right now the dz.com fatality database has this,
sorted from high to low:

Landings 36%
Malfunctions 22%
Collisions 13%
Other 12%
No Pulls 6%
Reserve Problems 6%

Of course this doesn't include injuries, and is mostly (entirely?)
skydiving, not BASE. If most of the "landing" category is low turns
(and not collision with obstacles), then the BASE is probably better
because of the water. The others are more of a toss-up, I think.

Disclaimer: I am aware of various arguments for and against AADs,
and I think it's a bad idea to "rely" on the AAD in some of the
scenarios above. But I think it makes it more likely that the
skydiver will end up with _something_ out in most situations.

Eule

PLF does not stand for Please Land on Face.

[MarkM 0]

If the DZ is in a wide open place with good outs, I'd say the skydive. Just teach the student to PLF the landing.

[Calvin19 0]

A good Argument...

Nice thumbnail...
Did you pick up the complete collection?
it is beautiful

[pincheck 0]

i don't have the experience level to be comfortable doing any sort of base jump like to watch but I'm not ready for it

Billy-Sonic Haggis Flickr-Fun

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I know nearly nothing about BASE

And it shows. But please don't take this as an attack. I am far from a BASE guru, but at one point not long ago I didn't know anything about BASE as well. Plus while he doesn't directly mention this, many of us in the BASE community know the bridge Calvin19 speaks which gives us the advantage of know what's possible there and what's not.

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One way to look at it: when does the jumper screw up?

That's a good start.

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At or just before landing (low turn, flare high/low/not at all, no PLF): Probably BASE. For falls of just a few feet, it's better to fall in the water than on the ground. (Assumes the water is deep enough.)

Hey we're off to a good start.

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Between opening and landing (screwing up canopy control, not flying to the right landing spot): The BASE jumper will always have the obstacle of the bridge supports. Otherwise, fairly dependent on landing area.

Absolutely it depends on the landing area. Plus it depends on what the canopy pilot does. At this site Calvin19 doesn't directly reference, landing in the water is safer if the canopy pilot continues to steer their canopy over the water. If they head for either shore, then it no longer is the safer of the two options and BASE all of a sudden becomes the less safe option.

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At opening (incorrect response to malfunction): Skydive. Even if the skydiver is fighting a main mal and doesn't cut away, I think he's got a better chance of getting _something_ over his head (via the Cypres)
that will slow him down.

I'm sorry but it's a parachute, it wants to open. Do you trust that your reserve will work? If the answer is yes, then you should know that BASE canopies are very similar in design and the two use similar packing techniques. A slider off/down BASE pack job is the most reliable packing technique you'll ever find. It's just unfortunate that you can only use slider off/down configurations on anything other than 0-3 second delays if you don't want to get slammed. But a high performance skydiving canopy is more likely to malfunction than a BASE canopy packed in the slider up configuration.

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At pull time (hard pull, bad body position): Probably skydive. The skydiver has more time to fix something like mondo line twists, and has the option of cutting away a really badly screwed up main. Also
the main might have gotten him upright enough that his body position won't get too screwed up in the time between cutting away and pulling the reserve. For a no pull, the Cypres might be able to help, but the BASE jumper is done.

Bad body position at pull time is one of the biggest culprits of an off heading opening (possibly resulting in line twists) regardless of which discpline you're doing. But you're right that BASE jumpers don't have the same amount of time to evaluate and fix the problem.

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At exit: Depends on the configuration of the bridge and the exit method from the Cessna.

At the bridge that Calvin19 not so directly refers to, it is extremely hard to actually hit the span in freefall. Of course anything can happen (like having an off heading opening and not doing anything about it). In the BASE world, Antennas and Spans (bridges) are considered safer than Buildings and Earth (cliffs) bound objects because the jumper often doesn't need to worry as much about off heading openings and object strikes.

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But I think it makes it more likely that the
skydiver will end up with _something_ out in most situations.

I've yet to do a BASE jump where I forget to pull. It's hard not to forget. Often you're so low to begin with that you take a shorter delay than what you had intended. Plus in some circumstances in the BASE world, it's safer to take a longer delay sucking it even lower just to get further away from the object. But it's not always easy to do.

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The others are more of a toss-up, I think.

You can see that the people in this forum have voted exactly the opposite way tha the BASE jumpers have voted in the BASE forum (at least at this point in time). But it's all good as neither activity is safe and hopefully Calvin19 won't turn into a Deathcamp BASE mentor. It's a controvesial topic that's for sure.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[TomAiello 25]

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At the bridge that Calvin19 not so directly refers to, it is extremely hard to actually hit the span in freefall.

It is possible to strike the side of the canyon under canopy, though.

I've actually come close enough to that side, under line twists, that I was concerned.

Freefall object strikes are incredibly rare. Strikes under canopy are far more likely.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[HydroGuy 0]

With the exact conditions you've outlined, I'm going to choose the BASE jump...especially if it's a round water rig. The water makes the landing pretty much a non-factor...and the water makes a lot of partial mals much more survivable.

I can think of very few instances where a collision with terra firma would be preferable to a collision with water.

And I keep seeing that Lusk AFF-1 tape from the 90's in my head...

Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary

[hookitt 0]

AFF level 1 can't be included.

In a one off situation, one BASE jump versus one freefall out of an aircraft, I do agree that given then exact conditions stated, the bridge jump is probably "safer"

AFF students are trained for a half a day and are dragged out of the plane with 2 instructors. Some of those students completely lose it. If you let go of just about any AFF level one student, or that student performed a solo exit, a completely out of control situation is nearly guarenteed.

A military trained parachutist however, is trained for many days in the use of the equipment, freefall position, canopy flight, and, they PLF train like crazy. As far as safety is concerned, they have a fantastic record.

If a person is trained for one BASE jump in the manner Calvin19 suggests, the chances of a good exit, pilot chute toss, opening, and steering into the water is quite high.

I've watched people with an hours training jump and survive so if you spend many hours or even days training to execute one BASE jump over water, it's unlikely the student will fail a safe water landing.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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It is possible to strike the side of the canyon under canopy, though.

I've actually come close enough to that side, under line twists, that I was concerned.

Yes I am aware of this. A couple of summers ago I watched Jamie do a forward flip, have line twists and fly dangerously close to that far shore. Fortunately he never gave up, climbed his risers and got out of his twists to make a nice splash in the water. Plus I've also seen guys doing round jumps coming too close for comfort to that far shore.

The span in potatoville is one of the safer BASE jumping sites. But it's still a BASE jump and I don't need to be telling you about how unsafe BASE jumping can be.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Ron 7]

Eules post did a very good job of seperating the potential danger areas.

You and I disagree some on the views.

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Plus while he doesn't directly mention this, many of us in the BASE community know the bridge Calvin19 speaks which gives us the advantage of know what's possible there and what's not.

Yes site means a lot, but here in Dallas its pretty much wide open areas as far as you can see. So location of the skydive needs to be taken into account as well. I am not so sure a canyon is safer than Skydive Dallas for a first jump.

*Tie if everything goes well.

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Absolutely it depends on the landing area. Plus it depends on what the canopy pilot does. At this site Calvin19 doesn't directly reference, landing in the water is safer if the canopy pilot continues to steer their canopy over the water. If they head for either shore, then it no longer is the safer of the two options and BASE all of a sudden becomes the less safe option.

As you said, we are off to a good start. Taking into account that the pilot may screw up...I think a big ass open area is a better choice than a canyon. Plus the pilot has more time to deal with line twists, and more time to learn how to fly the canopy from 4 grand vs just about any bridge jump.

* Point to skydive

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I'm sorry but it's a parachute, it wants to open

Regaurdless of how much you think a canopy wants to open, or how well they are packed, they do infact malfunction. Knowing that, two canopies are better than one. PLUS, with the situation given above the skydiver has an AAD. While I think its stupid to rely on an AAD stats show that they increase the chance of a canopy being deployed.

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But a high performance skydiving canopy is more likely to malfunction than a BASE canopy packed in the slider up configuration.

But we are talking about student canopies, not Stiletto's.

*Point Skydive (2)

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Bad body position at pull time is one of the biggest culprits of an off heading opening (possibly resulting in line twists) regardless of which discpline you're doing. But you're right that BASE jumpers don't have the same amount of time to evaluate and fix the problem.

Base jumpers and freefallers have about the same chance of really screwing up the pitch by being unstable. The line twist situation makes me want to give the point to skydive since as you said the skydiver has more time to fix it and he will not hit a wall with an offheading opeing with line twists.

*Point skydive?????

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At the bridge that Calvin19 not so directly refers to, it is extremely hard to actually hit the span in freefall. Of course anything can happen (like having an off heading opening and not doing anything about it). In the BASE world, Antennas and Spans (bridges) are considered safer than Buildings and Earth (cliffs) bound objects because the jumper often doesn't need to worry as much about off heading openings and object strikes.

Skydivers rarely ever have to worry about it.

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I've yet to do a BASE jump where I forget to pull. It's hard not to forget

I could say the same for skydiving. But the fact is people in BOTH sports have screwed up and forgot, or were unable. From 5,000 feet you ahve more time than any BASE jump I have ever heard of. Also in this situation the CYPRES gives the nod to Skydive.

*Point Skydive (3)

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You can see that the people in this forum have voted exactly the opposite way tha the BASE jumpers have voted in the BASE forum (at least at this point in time). But it's all good as neither activity is safe and hopefully Calvin19 won't turn into a Deathcamp BASE mentor. It's a controvesial topic that's for sure.

I agree its a tough call. But I know for a fact that it has been done both ways. However the fact that the Military has done it for quite sometime makes me think that skydive would be safer.

I also think either is a stupid idea.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Eule 0]

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I know nearly nothing about BASE

And it shows. But please don't take this as an attack.

It's all good. :) I know that there's probably a lot I don't know about
BASE. My personal opinion towards BASE at the moment: I have seen
BASE jumps on video, but not in person. I'd like to see some jumps
by experienced BASE jumpers in person, from several different angles
if possible. I have no desire to do a BASE jump myself. Ask me
again after I've got lots more skydives.

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Plus while he doesn't directly mention this, many of us in the
BASE community know the bridge Calvin19 speaks which gives us the
advantage of know what's possible there and what's not.

Uh oh... requirements creep! If you're going to specify a particular
bridge, then I get to specify a pilot who's been flying jump loads for
10 years in the same 182 and a DZ with a metric buttload of open
landing area. :)

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At opening (incorrect response to malfunction): Skydive.
Even if the skydiver is fighting a main mal and doesn't cut away, I
think he's got a better chance of getting _something_ over his head
(via the Cypres) that will slow him down.

I'm sorry but it's a parachute, it wants to open.

I've heard that before, mostly in reference to the kinds of pack jobs
one can "get away with". I think it's mostly true, but as long as
we're anthropomorphizing the gear, I have to think that even a
parachute can have a bad day and decide it'd rather stay in the
nice comfy container instead.

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Do you trust that your reserve will work?

As a moderately well-known politician once said, "Trust, but verify."
I trust that it will work, and that if my main is hosed enough that I'm
going for the reserve, it will very probably work a lot better than the
main. But the other side of that is that nothing or nearly nothing is
100%.* It might have a whole lot of nines, but it doesn't have a
one and a bunch of zeros.

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A slider off/down BASE pack job is the most reliable packing
technique you'll ever find. It's just unfortunate that you can only
use slider off/down configurations on anything other than 0-3
second delays if you don't want to get slammed.

(emphasis mine) I think that "can only" should be a "can't"? As far
as I know, packing with the slider down or removed will give you a
canopy that opens very fast. This would imply that going to high
speeds before pulling (having a long delay) is a bad idea.

Assume for a moment that you could fix the "getting slammed" part -
then skydivers could pack their mains like a BASE jumper would. If
this type of pack-job is that reliable, we could save several hours of
FJC, lots of money, and a little weight and bulk on a skydiving rig... :)
In almost all cases, I think the option of having that second canopy
is a very good one.

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But I think [having an AAD] makes it more likely that the
skydiver will end up with _something_ out in most situations.

I've yet to do a BASE jump where I forget to pull. It's hard not to forget.

I agree that it's hard to forget, if your brain is online. Hit your head
on the aircraft or object on exit, or have a heart attack or seizure just
as you leap off, and remebering isn't really under your control anymore.

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You can see that the people in this forum have voted exactly
the opposite way tha the BASE jumpers have voted in the BASE
forum (at least at this point in time).

I haven't checked the BASE forum yet, but I do intend to, maybe
after this thread seems to be winding down.

To be clear: I'm not mad at you or thinking that you're flaming me
for not knowing about BASE. I think we are both having a good
discussion while coming from different perspectives.

Eule

* I would say that there is one event that, as of 1 Jan 2006, has
a 100% chance of happening: Someday, everyone will die, and stay
dead. This has nothing to do with the dangers of skydiving or BASE
jumping or driving a car or walking around; it's just a fact of life. I
qualify this with a date because who knows what the doctors will cook
up in the future. Also, one reason I said "nearly nothing" is that a
non-trivial set of people believe very strongly that the "stay dead"
part didn't happen once - maybe they're right.

PLF does not stand for Please Land on Face.

[BenHall 0]

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"Air Force teaches their students that exact method for their first skydive. Days and days of classroom learning and theory and then they do a 10 second delay solo for thier first jump. The program works from all accounts due to the massive amounts of training. "

Just keep in mind that all of those AF freefallers have AAD's for both the main and the reserve . . . and the main AAD goes off a lot. When I went through the program for my first jumps, it was scary to see all of the near horseshoes and incredibly unstable flailing on the review videos (others', not mine : ) ). The huge canopies and 2 FXC's play no small part in the success of the program. However the 3 days of 4 am hazing is still the main reason imo.

That being said, the BASE jump would be much safer...I mean the PC is already out and they're landing on water.

[crazydiver 0]

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That being said, the BASE jump would be much safer...I mean the PC is already out and they're landing on water.

From the original post, we're assuming that the student is taking a short delay off the object. The student would therefore have to deploy the pilot chute by his/herself with very little altitude to work with.

Cheers,
Travis

[Calvin19 0]

correct, the PC is already out of the BOC for a handheld, all the student has to do is let go of it......

before 4 seconds

[brits17 0]

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correct, the PC is already out of the BOC for a handheld, all the student has to do is let go of it......
before 4 seconds

I figured this too in light of your same poll in the BASE zone. However, your first post here does not specify if its pilot chute in hand. I can see why most people are voting for the skydive in that case

If we are assuming PC in hand, send em off the bridge... for the same reasons I said in this post.

_______________________
aerialkinetics.com

[Calvin19 0]

AYE! your correct... my mistake, thanks for pointing that out... i will edit... but i guess i already got my use out of this poll. I think BASE jumpers understand their sport more... and they have more faith in it, i think BASE might be a four letter word to a lot of skydivers.

[Ron 7]

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I think BASE jumpers understand their sport more... and they have more faith in it

Why do you say that?

Which sport do you think has a higher injury/fatality rate?

Also one common theme in most sports is participants think they are doing something safe. So it is pretty easy to guess that many BASE folks think they are safe and that it would be safer.

Perception is not always reality.

If you answer which sport has a higher injury/fatality rate....you will have your answer.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334