clive75 0 #1 September 4, 2002 Friend of mine jumped thro cloud layers when exact position was unknown but likely over wooded terrain. 3 jumped two stayed and landed with the plane. My friend broke his leg landing other 2 were ok but were lucky. My thoughts unless plane is on fire or you are absolutely certain of the terrain your are landing on best not to leave the plane. his comment to me after getting out of hospital as I exited knew It was stupid. All are jumpmasters the 2 most experienced jumpers stayed in the plane. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #2 September 4, 2002 I thought canadians had superior saftey standards. You guys didn't use GPS when jumping thru a solid cloud base? Seriously, congrats on having enough sense to stay in the plane. I hope your friends heal quick. Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #3 September 4, 2002 Did he break his leg because he landed in trees? You say they were "likely" over wooded area. But jumping through clouds does not necessarily mean you mess up your landing. A little more clearity in your account would help. Chris Schindler Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
clive75 0 #4 September 4, 2002 Hi Chris He landed in a semi cleared area snagged foot on shrub and that caused out of control landing. I was not on the plane. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #5 September 4, 2002 QuoteFriend of mine jumped thro cloud layers when exact position was unknown but likely over wooded terrain. 3 jumped two stayed and landed with the plane. My friend broke his leg landing other 2 were ok but were lucky. My thoughts unless plane is on fire or you are absolutely certain of the terrain your are landing on best not to leave the plane. his comment to me after getting out of hospital as I exited knew It was stupid. All are jumpmasters the 2 most experienced jumpers stayed in the plane. I absolutely refuse to jump in thick clouds anymore. I've looked down and seen people track off into them and dump. Twice I have flown my canopy around clouds and have seen students and others disappear into them. That might not sound bad here when you talk about it; but it is a VERY uncomfortable feeling when you are closeby and you lose sight of them. Most of the time you won't see someone turning into you until it's too late. I know most jumpmasters train students "if you are _falling_ through clouds, stay put and watch your altitude; resume the skydive when you are clear of them". However, not very many people are reminded to do the same thing under canopy and will still continue to make turns because they are so focused on making it to the DZ. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallenAngel 0 #6 September 5, 2002 On my last jump from 10k, 3 of us went through a thick cloud layer at around 4500. (Used GPS for spot). Once in the cloud layer, there was no visibility and I had no clue where the other jumpers were. Then my Dytter went off at 3500 and I was still in the thick cloud with no visibility. That was pretty scary, since I told everyone I'm dumping at 3000. How low was this cloud layer going to go? Should I dump at 3000 regardless? Also, I didn't know where the other 2 jumpers were when we entered the cloud layer. Above or Below me? Maybe they are right above me and just don't know it. Finally visibility again just below 3000 and just before I go for my PC I see one of the jumpers doing a full track, but not away from me, more like to the side without really gaining too much distance. So he probably didn't know were I was either. Anyways, the jump went well. My opinion, if you can avoid jumps over thick cloud layers, then do. But if you ever happen to be on a jump like this. Make good visual of all other jumpers before entering the clouds, so you know where to track. If you don't know where they are, don't track, because you don't where you're going. Take Air. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #7 September 5, 2002 you shouldn't refer to "industrial haze" as clouds, or admit to having fallen through them. but if you decide to do that, and you are in a group, stay that way (altitude permitting) until break-off. but NEVER jump through clouds, the pilot, and the sky diver can be fined, if busted....--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #8 September 5, 2002 Actually... its only the FAA that has issues with clouds and in certian areas of the US places have filed for cloud waivers. I know most of Europe, Canada and most other places that I can read their languages... they don't have many issues with jumping through clouds provided that proper tower approval and things are granted. Given, flying in these areas is more strictly controlled in the first place....Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohanW 0 #9 September 5, 2002 The Netherlands must be another part of Most of Europe. Granted, we speak dutch (I doubt you can read our language), but the RLD (cf. FAA) has a serious problem with jumping through clouds, once prohibiting jumps above 5000' for the remainder of the day at a DZ I frequent. We had been naughty, then again, there are issues with jumping through clouds. Do I really need to elaborate again, after others have done so rather convincingly? Please, stop and think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpkid 0 #10 September 5, 2002 Canada has a huge problem with clouds... Cant see the ground, no dice. My Dz has a huge swamp down the road , two people spotted threw the haze once and landed a few Km into it.(no GPS) It took them around 6 hours to get out. We dont do that any more.....They were fine, but it could have gone very bad. (Bad Ra-ra) peace Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #11 September 5, 2002 My Bad... I did find the part of the CAR's I was missing the first time... in Canada no jump operations including freefall or canopy can be in clouds while in controlled airspace (what ever controlled means in Canada).Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,644 #12 September 6, 2002 I find it hard to believe that anyone would actually jump through a cloud. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tigra 0 #13 September 6, 2002 Yeah, I heard you could suffocate like that. Honest, I saw it on tv so I know its true! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jbrasher 0 #14 September 6, 2002 And in Europe (England last year and France several years before that) there have been 2 skydiver glider strikes. 2 skydivers dead and 1 pilot; the other 2 pilots (from one sailplane) were charged with manslaughter the last I heard. Go for it; jump through clods Red, White and Blue Skies, John T. Brasher D-5166 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #15 September 6, 2002 Quote in Canada no jump operations including freefall or canopy can be in clouds while in controlled airspace (what ever controlled means in Canada). Uncontrolled airspace means exactly what you think it does. Jumpships neither give notice of take-offs or landings, not do really have any interaction with a tower while in un-controlled airspace. It's the big-sky theory at it's best (or worse). Interestingly, Skydive Gananoque (the place where Frankenotter broke) is in uncontrolled airpsace. I do wonder if this means they can legally jump through clouds... In addition to the controlled-airspace regulation, jumping through clouds is also prohibited over Built-up areas or open air assemblies of persons - meaning demo's. This of course brings to mind the opening ceremony for the Skydome in Toronto in the early 90's, where skydivers jumped into the domed stadium in heavy rain, landing in on an astro-turf field that didn't have any drainage. There was an estimated 4 inches of standing water on the astro-turf. Their landings were spectacular. The crowd loved it... Fortunately there was only one broken leg. SkyDome is not only in a build-up area, it's also about a half mile from Toronto City Center airport (YTZ). _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fudd 0 #16 September 6, 2002 In Norway we jump through clouds all the time. Of course we prefer not to (a full face helmet is recomended ) The conditions here is a little different than in many other countries. The airspace is restricted so that any aircraft comming in has to radio in and ask for permission to come in for landing. The dropzone is also at a remote location, the chances on airplanes in the airspace is close to zero. We use good exit seperation. You're not allowed to track if you can't see the runway (ofcourse we track for seperation at breakoff altitude). If you have to dump in the clouds (usually not happening because we do not jump if there are clouds below 4000'-5000') everybody does 360 turns until out of the clouds so that we're not flying all over the place in low visibility. If you are experienced you could also navigate by the sun if possible to get out of the way 90 degrees from the runway. One important thing. If you're in a cloud at deployment altitude. Do not wait until you're out of the cloud to dump. That is dangerous! -Other jumpers will have dumped and can be under you. -You can't see the ground, and you're altimeter is your only instrument for altitude. (What if it malfunctions and the clouds have dropped to 1000 feet??, maybe you just got ice/fog on your googles!) I don't feel it's unsafe to jump throug clouds at my DZ, but it's much more to fun jumping in blue skies, so I usually avoid the loads when there are clouds. Also you never know how much meat(read; ice, waterdrops) there are in the clouds when looking at them from the ground. (No fun to just have to lay on your back half the freefall screaming: MAMA IT HURTS!!! ). But if the choice is between jumping through clouds and not jumping at all, I'll jump... ---Oh, I forgot to say that the pilots use gps so they don't give us exit at a bad spot--- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #17 September 6, 2002 Clouds were NOT an issue with the glidder/jumper collision this year in the UK.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #18 September 6, 2002 QuoteI know most of Europe, Canada and most other places that I can read their languages... they don't have many issues with jumping through clouds provided that proper tower approval and things are granted. I have not found this to be true in Holland, UK, Germany or Sweden. Who told you most of Europe doesn't have many issues with jumping through clouds? Will Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernokaikkonen 0 #19 September 6, 2002 We're not allowed to jump through clouds in Finland either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jurgencamps 0 #20 September 6, 2002 ????????? Don't believe everything that's on television Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bruno 0 #21 September 6, 2002 Fudd In Norway is it legal to jump through clouds?? In Italy is forbidden, most of the jump planes in use are only VFR, so they can't fly without ground visual contact, many DZ do it (illegally). We write a lot of laws but we normally don't follow them (Italian style of life). In my area (Sardinia island) clouds are rare, I personally never go on a load over the clouds Bruno Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
macey 0 #22 September 6, 2002 The england glider strike this year was nothing to do with jumping through cloud. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #23 September 6, 2002 QuoteI do wonder if this means they can legally jump through clouds... according to the FARS, if it's a USPA dropzone (or not) you cannot jump through the cloud layers, only the pilot in command, and the sky diver(s) can be fined, and/or have their ratings yanked/suspended. personally, i won't do it, although i've been seen jumping through industrial haze once or twice. FAR # 105.17 Flight Visibility And Clearance From Cloud Requirements: no person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from that aircraft. a) into a cloud, or b) when the flight visibility or the distance from any cloud is less than prescribed in the following table: 1) 1,200' or less the surface regardless of the MSL altitude....500' below...1,000 feet above...2,000' horizontal 2) more than 1,200' feet above the surface but less than 10,000 feet MSL...500' below...1,000 feet above...2,000 feet horizontal 3) more than 1,200 feet above the surface and at/or above 10,000 feet MSL....1,000 feet below...1,000 feet above....1 mile horizontal there you have it.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #24 September 6, 2002 Umm... I think he was refering to since it was in Canada, and in uncontrolled airspace that they could legally jump through clouds...Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #25 September 6, 2002 QuoteUmm... I think he was refering to since it was in Canada, and in uncontrolled airspace that they could legally jump through clouds... ummmmmmmm, you may be right, but i wanted to make sure everyone understood what the FAR says about it HERE in the USA, since several other countries were mentioned as well. ummmmmmmm o.k.? ummmmm thank you.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
