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jumper410

Drop Zone Ethics - 101 (In Kansas City)

By jumper410, in General Skydiving Discussions

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jumper410    0

jumper410
It is amazing to see what is going on these days in the heartland for skydiving. A hot topic is the new DZ that recently opened in Harrisonville, MO. There has been nothing but name calling and dirty mud-slinging over this since the announcement of it back in January. But what is behind all the slinging? Dis-information! Now, how about some FACTS?!

The facts are very simple to understand and very clear here. A couple decided they would start a DZ in the KC area. They decided to create a website depicting this DZ as an established business and drop zone in the KC area and claiming it to be the largest DZ in the area. (see for yourself: http://www.kcskydiving.com ). “The Kansas City Skydiving Center is the largest skydiving center in the Kansas City area.” Again, FACTS here: This drop zone did not even exist! It did not have any presence whatsoever when it was announced and is nothing more than an empty field and a tool shed now. (See attached pictures), yet it makes this claim. (Pictures also here: http://www.illusions-cs.com/KCS/index.htm ) They have recently purchased seven acres adjacent to the airport. Seven is a lot less than 166 acres another area DZ has which makes me wonder how it can be the "largest."

“The Kansas City Skydiving Center also employs some of the friendliest, most experienced skydiving instructors in the Midwest. Most of our skydiving instructors have made over 5,000 jumps each.” NOT TRUE. FACT: The owners have no instructional ratings whatsoever! The only tandem master came from another local DZ and has just recently got a TM rating.

“We are open every day of the week to better serve you.” FACT: They were not open not even one day during their first week or so far this week. (http://www.kcskydiving.com/base/hours.html) (http://www.kcskydiving.com/base/about.html)

“The Kansas City Skydiving Center uses the most advanced, state-of-the-art equipment available to skydivers today.” FACT: They have no student equipment, no classrooms, no buildings, not even a restroom. (http://www.kcskydiving.com/base/about.html)

“Our brand-new aircraft will take you to 14,000 feet, 50% higher than all of our competitors.” FACT: They are leasing an Otter, I saw it, it is NOT BRAND-NEW either and they only have it one more weekend before it goes back to Texas. They claim to have a Caravan on their website. (http://www.kcskydiving.com/facilities/aircraft.html)
(http://www.kcskydiving.com/base/about.html)


“Come check out the premier skydiving resort in the Heartland!” FACT: A field and a Home Depot tool shed manifest office is all there is to it! See attached pictures.
(http://www.kcskydiving.com/facilities.html)

“Additional amenities include on-airport hot showers, picnic tables, and plenty of covered packing area.” FACT: They have no buildings, no showers, no toilets, and no picnic tables. They did have a tent though for covered packing, part of the time.
(http://www.kcskydiving.com/facilities.html)

“First-Jump Consumer Alert :
Beware of certain websites claiming to be actual skydiving centers. These websites are trying to sell you a useless gift certificate that cannot be redeemed. Please click here for more details.” (http://www.kcskydiving.com/index.html)
Now how can they put this on their website when they are not even a drop zone themselves or USPA group member? And up until April 1st, they claimed to be “closed” for the winter when they have never even flown a load until April 1st. How’s that??

Look people, face the facts here. These people are liars. And this cannot be a personal attack because it is true. Check it out yourself! People should know this and be told. If you claim to have all these things and don’t, you are lying. Very basic here.
Now what I don’t understand is this, everyone is bashing 1-800-SKYRIDE for the same thing; having a website depicting facilities, services and equipment when they in fact do not. WHY is it okay for these guys here at KC Skydiving to do the same thing and get away with it??

It is completely bass ackwards here. You got two very committed DZO’s, Tom Dolphin, Chris Hall who have been here for 25 and 9 years respectively and have spent those years and hundreds of thousands if not in the millions of dollars creating drop zones for people here. They are “stakeholders.” STAKEHOLDER: The people-employees, customers, suppliers, and the community-who are affected by the actions of a business. (Management Skills & Applications, 11th Edition – Leslie W. Rue & Lloyd L. Barnes)

These two DZO’s have every single right in the world as stakeholders to oppose a group of individuals making claims in their business they simply do not even come close to having or meeting. What these new DZO’s does affects everybody in this. Tom and Chris did not bring up anything, not one thing, at any of the meetings they were in fact INVITED to attend that was NOT true. Not one thing. Anybody, please bring forward just one thing and I will be happy to clarify it for you. Tom Dolphin has a 166 acre, dedicated facility for skydiving that has been here as long as I can remember. It has buildings, modern classrooms and equipment, video room, beautiful indoor packing, air conditioned student packing, heated in all packing areas, a full-service, real loft, nice men’s and women’s showers and restrooms, a nice, large pavilion/creeper area and miles of un-obstructed landing area and more. This is FACT. Why are you people bashing this DZO that has provided so many years of service and awesome facilities and has sacrificed for the sport in a numerous ways? Remember the flood of ’93? He brought it all back for skydivers. He had multiple turbines in and out of here, multiple times for boogies and had them here full-time as well. The area here chose not to jump enough to support them full-time, again FACT. He has brought in out-of-town turbines too many times to mention yet a select few who either don’t have all the facts or are just plain stupid continue to call him and Chris Hall out to be the bad guys. How is that??

Bottom line, you can’t get something for nothing. Pick a side. Either stop bashing 1-800-SKYRIDE and side with the new DZO’s or support the DZ’s that have been there and are established and in the phone book and have provided so much, for so long here in KC. And another thing, get over being such cheapskates and buck up the cash and you will HAVE MORE here. All the whining about prices for lift tickets and BS when there are constantly people walking around wearing new rigs and jumpsuits all the time and there is no shortage of Chief’s season ticket holders here either. If you can afford that, you can afford to SUPPORT YOUR DZ and HAVE MORE! People cut the crapola, send a message, and don’t support the new DZ. If they can’t tell the truth from the beginning, what makes you think they will later? Support the stakeholders, support yourselves! Send them back to New Jersey.

I expect this fight will go on for a while as the Eriksmones are surely going to do all they can to appeal the “cease and desist” order they were given this past weekend by Cass County. It would be best to help make it go a little quicker and not support a couple of out-of-townies who think they can just drop in with a website, no facilities, no DZO experience, no ratings, no experienced staff and no assets and re-create skydiving in KC. When it finally goes bad there, I wouldn’t come crying back to MRVS and/or Skydive Kansas City and if you do be prepared to do some much deserved graveling! Just my two-cents given my 14 years in the sport and 6 years working full-time in skydiving.

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CSpenceFLY    1

CSpenceFLY
As i have said many times before,If you have the greatest place in the world you don't have to worry about what is happening across town.

I have a suggestion for everyone in the area.Jump where you want to and when one of the DZOs or anyone else give you any shit tell them to blow you.

It could be worst Jay.They could have someone like me around that just wants to skydive and have fun events.


.

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stratostar    5

stratostar
Why would someone form Dallas TX spend so much time and effort to give a shit? Who's pay roll are you on, MSRV or SDKC?
While I would agree that putting up a fake web page is NOT cool and very skyride like, at least the owners are putting their money into their dream, it is their risk, not yours.
How is what you posted not mudslinging telling others to not jump there?

Many of the early Kansas dz's had no shitters or indoor packing, the class room (LOL) was a t-hanger you used after the 182 was pushed out of it.
Any real oldtimers in Kansas would remember Kaw Valley skydivers, later to be called Topeka skydivers and the airport was Mesa Virde or as we called it Mesa dirty we had none of the facilities jumpers have today, if you had to take a crap you found bush and took a squat it was that way for years, you don't need all that crap in order to jump, some gas, a rig or two and a plane.

As for supporting the the dz's that are there now, maybe people want something other then what is there now, they can chose on their own and don't need you to tell them what to do.

I for one won't jump at Chris Halls dz or the sharps dz. I don't support dz's that tell me I have to have a cypres in order to jump there, even tho I have a cypres in my AFF rig, but that would be the only rig I could jump at those dz's out of the many rigs I own.
Although it would be fun to go to those dz's with my belly wart rig's just to ask them how do you put a cypres in a wart.
I don't need dzo's telling me I need an AAD in gear I have been jumping longer then they have been in the sport or dzo's.
It is their place, they make the rules and have a right to do so, I have a right to not support them and have not wasted my time to go to those dz's when in the area.

As for Tom Dolphin YES he has a nice place and has been there a long time and done a lot for the sport in that area, out of the dz's in the KC area that is the one place I would go to, but if I had the choice of a 182 or twin otter, I 'm going to go to the otter dz.
Is it Toms fault that jumpers didn't support him when he had a fulltime turbine? No not that I'm aware of, but I wasn't a jumper there, maybe he is a big dickhead and people don't like him?
I don't think that is true I have never heard anything bad about him, I know many a jumper who called it home for a long time and nothing but goodtimes at his dz.
So if Tom can't run a fulltime turbine it is the skydivers fault for not showing up to jump because they spent their money on season tickets to watch football or spent their weekends at worlds of fun instead of at the dz and that was their choice to do so.

The one problem with todays skydivers is they all think a dz has to have all the fancy crap like the big boys (z-hils-deland-eloy) but don't want to pay the price to have all the toys.

The bottom line here is if the new dz owners want to put there money where there mouth is, LET UM TRY!
One of two things will happen, it will turn into a great dz and give the jumpers what they want, or it will fail and they will be down the road.

If you really don't like it as much as it seems you do, maybe you should go buy you a turbine and lease it to Tom or Chris or the Sharps or rotate it between them, and fight fire with fire and your pocket book.
Then you can bitch about the cost of ownership and how the locals won't support you and your toy, but don't come back crying when some jumpers get on here slam'n your operation and telling everyone not to jump your plane.

~
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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beowulf    1

beowulf
A lot of what you are complaining about is just advertising. Kind of like the picture of a Big Mac doesn't look like the Big Mac you get. Pretty much all new businesses have to bend the truth to make the themselves look better. If you think that is wrong then try going into business for yourself and be totally brutally honest and upfront and see how long you last.

Quit complaining if it doesn't work they won't last. Why would you want to go out of your way to slam someone elses business?

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Andy9o8    0

Andy9o8
I don’t know any of the principals and have no dog in this fight.
But I gotta say, you “competitors” constantly trying to sabotage the new KC dropzone in one thread after another, after another (and even hijacking their boogie thread - how childish...) must really have something to fear. Don’t you have some more “hostile locals” you can invent? What’s next, are you going to send some goons over at night to damage their property, beat them up or shoot holes in their planes?
Every post you guys make, every straw man you sic on them, etc. persuades me that, if I ever jump in the KC area, it will be at the new KC DZ and that one only.
I wouldn’t spend a dime at your competing DZ if it were the last one on Earth.

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javajunkie    0

javajunkie
Who cares! It's advertising! I look at Skydive Kansas City's website and they say that they "are the only center in the area with a perfect safety record", while MRVS' website claims that their "safety record is second to none in the entire country." How can these both be true? I'm so confused! Oh wait, it's called marketing. MRVS' website also claims that they have "the midwest's only full-service parachute loft." I know I've been to at least a few DZ's in the midwest that had full-time full-service rigging lofts.

Skydive KC's website says that "they have never had a serious injury at their facility." What about http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1948044? How does Skdyive KC define a "serious injury?" They also state that they were "the first to offer new, state of the art square main & reserve canopies for students" and that they "are also the only student-training center to use exclusively Cypres AAD (automatic activation device) units." Hmmmmmm. They again state in their FAQ's that "At Skydive Kansas City we have the best safety record in the midwest!!" Do you have anything to actually back that up with? They also state that "Static line skydiving is recognized as the most popular and reliable way to learn to skydive." Maybe in Yugoslavia.

Once again, who cares? It's all advertising. I know not to take anything I read online with a grain of salt. Every business is going to try and get a marketing edge by using half-truths (and much less than half-truths). That's life in America.

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jdfreefly    1

jdfreefly
Oh man, thanks a lot for that....

I was having the most boring day, and I was in a rather foul mood. Your post brought a smile to face! You should consider whoring yourself out to big companies as a "Morale Enhancement Coach"....could be a lot of money in it for you.

Please, don't listen to the others...KEEP POSTING!!!! I need the laughs and Paul and Joana need the free advertising.

PS - as I said before, I believe your computer has a problem.....PEBKAC.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

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chutejump    0

chutejump
MRVS' website also claims that they have "the midwest's only full-service parachute loft." I know I've been to at least a few DZ's in the midwest that had full-time full-service rigging lofts.

Well I guess I can answer your question, Full service! Yes! We can do any and "ALL" repairs to include drop testing for return to service requirements, we can manufacture any and "ALL" compotents to include special length and use reserve ripcords, you name it we can do it!
Question! ever been to the loft? have any knowledge of the equipment onsite for use on repairs? If we wanted you could bring us a data tag and we can build you a rig around it! That is what a "Full Service Parachute Loft " is. I'm sure the other locations you referenced to are able to preform much of the repairs and maintenance on the average rig, we are able to go the extra distance.

As for the statement "safety record second to none!" Bring um on! I'll compare notes with any and all DZ's and have the stats to prove the point! Not just advertisment banter and Bull Shit.

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darnknit    0

darnknit
cspence, skinnyshrek,
even though there are hundreds of posts about this topic in a few threads(at least one of which got locked). there are obviously plenty of issues that have not been hashed out, thus the need for yet another thread on the same old topic.

i would like to apologize to skymonkeyone for putting him through all the work of deleting my posts.

let's focus on the fact that all kansas city dropzones are getting free advertising out of this. nobody should be focused on the fact that my opinion is that:
we are beating a dead horse
this is much ado about nothing
we should go fly a kite
we are making a mountain out of a mole-hill
there is nothing here to mention
this topic has been covered ad-nauseum
we are picking the fly shit out of black pepper with boxing gloves

the only positive thing i've noticed is that the new dzo's have refused to be petty and political in any of this.

kinda makes ya wanna root for 'em, don't it?

blue stuff,
p.j.


pulling is cool. keep it in the skin

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bch7773    0

bch7773
Quote

As i have said many times before,If you have the greatest place in the world you don't have to worry about what is happening across town.



I agree. If the MRVS DZ is sooooo great, continue to jump there. And if its soooo wonderful, then the old DZOs have no fear of others leaving it right?

oh thats right, the old DZs are scared of the new. And thats why you are very pubicly and very childishly bashing the new DZ. because you are scared it might be better then yours right?

I'm all for the new DZ, and I'm the vice president of the KSUPC DZ. We have jumpers in kansas city and topeka that jump at our DZ... might we lose them? of course. but should that mean I should whine, bitch, and threaten?
grow up.

edit (I quoted cspence's post, but i am not refering to him... i am refering to jumper410 when i say "you")

MB 3528, RB 1182

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bob.dino    0

bob.dino
Quote

the only positive thing i've noticed is that the new dzo's have refused to be petty and political in any of this.

kinda makes ya wanna root for 'em, don't it?



Oh yeah. And Martin from Air Capital has also been professional & courteous to a potential competitor. If I ever find myself in Kansas, they'll be the two DZs I'll seek out first.

I think that jumper410 et al should realise that threads like this, whatever their basis in fact, just come across as sour grapes and damage their reputation.

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chutejump    0

chutejump
I agree. If the MRVS DZ is sooooo great, continue to jump there. And if its soooo wonderful, then the old DZOs have no fear of others leaving it right?

Quote

I just don't get where eveyone comes off with this supposed fear of losing up jumpers that everyone talks about on these treads? Is it a self imposed value on up jumpers part? What fear? Fear of what? I have not as you call it "lost" any jumpers to the new DZ, and have no concerns of doing so!
Besides K-State is a club, if everyone left the remainder of you would still jump, the bills are paid by the school! Oh -I forgot! you pay $25.00 a month.
Get over it!

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darnknit    0

darnknit
Quote

I just don't get where eveyone comes off with this supposed fear of losing up jumpers that everyone talks about on these treads?



me neither.

Quote

Is it a self imposed value on up jumpers part?



it really doesn't seem to be from my perspective.

Quote

What fear? Fear of what?



this is where you start to become difficult to understand, from my perspective.

Quote

I have not as you call it "lost" any jumpers to the new DZ, and have no concerns of doing so!



then it wouldn't kill you to wish the new dz well, since we are all skydivers and we all love to promote skydiving. go ahead tiger, tell the Eriksmoens you wish them all the best, after all(by your own words) you stand to lose nothing financially.

Quote

Besides K-State is a club, if everyone left the remainder of you would still jump, the bills are paid by the school! Oh -I forgot! you pay $25.00 a month.
Get over it!



perhaps you should work on your rapport skills. i don't want to sound like a know it all, but this last statement comes across as slightly less than, "warm and fuzzy".


pulling is cool. keep it in the skin

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CSpenceFLY    1

CSpenceFLY
Our buddy jumper 410 has decided to resort to PMs since the mods are watching.Here is what he sent me.


"As i have said many times before,If you have the greatest place in the world you don't have to worry about what is happening across town.
"

because what happens across town done improperly f's it up for everybody as it already has here in KC once before. that's why.
why should these guys get any credit when they have nothing to show for it? to be a player that deserves the respect of the community and other DZ's, they should have to BUILD it FIRST, then take credit. They have built squat! a website with nothing but lies. are you that dumb that you cannot see a problem with this?

I told him he was doing good up to the last sentence and he should fuck off.


.

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kelpdiver    2

kelpdiver
How does he persist with the notion this is a virtual DZ when they clearly had a non virtual boogie two weekends ago, and a 4 way scramble this last one? Hell, he even contradicts himself when he quibbles over the size of the actual site not being the 'largest' around.

No amount of lying will avoid the fact that jumpers will tend to gravitate towards Otters over non turbine aircraft.

Clearly they played a bit with reality in describing themselves as a long standing place that was 'closed for winter' until April 1 rather than a new one. But that's marketing again.

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