How to kill your friends

[icevideot 0]

I think you did a great job with the video and the post. Thanks.

Quote

This is with the assumption that I had altitude to play with.

I know you understand this but to anyone having to make this decision remember you can spend the rest of your life trying to fix your gear. If in doubt....

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[Elisha 1]

Quote

Quote

until my third or fourth grab

Yikes man.... What was your plan? 4 attempts? 2? Try until the AAD fires? Did you have a plan?

I dont want to ride you too much about that, but its the same issue that caused the AAD fire the OP videoed. Before AADs, quite a few people went in because of this.

Have a plan. And it should be 2 attempts, and then reserve.

My plan was that I was going to have to go to silver soon..but I found it. I was just reaching very lazily. My subsequent pulls (jumps thereafter) I did practice touches and realized it was mostly not practicing reaching. It worked out though.

[snowslider 0]

I just want to thank you for posting this story and video and doing it so eloquently. I learned some things and I have not had the chance to experience yet, i.e., flying with other people and burbles. Anyway, Great Thread!

[AFFI 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

until my third or fourth grab

Yikes man.... What was your plan? 4 attempts? 2? Try until the AAD fires? Did you have a plan?

I dont want to ride you too much about that, but its the same issue that caused the AAD fire the OP videoed. Before AADs, quite a few people went in because of this.

Have a plan. And it should be 2 attempts, and then reserve.

My plan was that I was going to have to go to silver soon..but I found it. I was just reaching very lazily. My subsequent pulls (jumps thereafter) I did practice touches and realized it was mostly not practicing reaching. It worked out though.

Everybody's PLAN is to not die, as was the person that had the Cypress fire in the posted video.

Perhaps what is trying to be brought to the surface of our collective understanding is to not make changes the trained response from 2 tries to additional attempts while descending at a high rate of speed.

It worked for you this time, next time if you continue to make alterations to your EP’s during a high speed situation you may not be as fortunate.

Of course, I could be wrong…
-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Remster 24]

Quote

It worked out though.

eh... It works out most of the time: low turns, low pulls, too close a seperation, not checking the spot.

Remster

[councilman24 36]

Just looked at this thread.

Video looked at like the combat RW of the old days. People taking out formations was common. Not so common now it seems. Of course we were all still learning. I remember laying base for lots of newbies and watching them come like a rocket. I even dodged a few. One time I saw the eyes of the guy across from me get real big. Tuck my chin down and kind of dropped in the grips as the junior zoomie brushed over my back. Of course this was after taking out a few myself.

As to the hanger causing the leg strap to lengthen. Remember, the gear is NOT designed to be loaded in these unusual ways. The hardware depends on there being a near 180 degree opposition of the two ends of the webbing. Thats why to loosen them we pull up on the adjustor and change the angle. Loading one sideways by hanging on it should be EXPECTED to loosen the straps. Elastic keepers, rubber bands, etc can help. And chest straps really only need to be threaded, not tight. But it might be a wise idea to dirt dive the LOADS on the gear and exactly where the grips should be.

We're having enough trouble with hardware/webbing slipping. There are lots of theories that blame the hardware, the webbing, and both. As we've went from cadmium plated to stainless and nickle plated and the finish of the webbing as seemed to change there has been lots of discussion, research, and trail and error on fixing the slippage problem.

As to the brain lock? Lots of skydivers used to have fun all the way to the ground - before audibles and AAD's. And lots of skydivers used to ignore their reserve in this same way. Now, we have the luxury of AAD's being common and we don't bounce as many.

Glad it worked out. Sorry for the old days crap.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[Orange1 0]

Quote

As to the hanger causing the leg strap to lengthen. Remember, the gear is NOT designed to be loaded in these unusual ways. The hardware depends on there being a near 180 degree opposition of the two ends of the webbing. Thats why to loosen them we pull up on the adjustor and change the angle. Loading one sideways by hanging on it should be EXPECTED to loosen the straps.

Thanks for the clarification - makes sense

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[bodypilot1 0]

Shit happens. Live and learn.......

Make sunsets loads special, but not like this. Know who you are jumping with.


Be safe
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[Elisha 1]

Remster/AFFI,
Yes, you can question me, but as I originally said, I was in the saddle by 2100 - a lot different than the Cypres fire....Or I can just retract my statement and said that I pulled fine since no one has any video to prove otherwise. Again, I was damn sure to do practice touches before next jump and found the hackey and pulled the first time.

[jojo69 0]

Thank you for your post. I feel that I have learned a great deal from it. I wish more people would take the time to explain what is happening and what is going wrong as well as what could have been done to correct it. It is a great learning tool and I hope you and others offer more.

[daremrc 0]

Thanks to the original poster for editing the video as he did & posting this: I, as a student, am aware of burbles in reguards to my own, personal burble... But had never thought about the very large burble that occurs over a group in formation. Thanks for editing & posting, I for one learned something there.

Thanks to Cassi who in spite of taking out the group in the video, was a mature enough person to acknowledge the error in public and more importantly learn from the experience. Don't beat yourself up... We all make mistakes in life, and the good ones are the ones that you learn from & llive to tell about. It sounds as if you've learned more than you thought you ever would on that jump, so don't keep yourself up at night over this one. It sounds liek you already made amends with the other jumpers.

Again I'm still a baby in this sport but I learned alot both about the technical aspects of jumping, as well as the charachter of jumpers by reading this thread & watching the vid.


happy holidays to you all

Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.

[skysurfcam 0]

Quote

We, as the more experienced skydivers, have a duty to be sure about what we are doing with the newer folks.

Quote

Jumps
License
In sport
: 1333
: D 28195
:3 years

huh.

Brother Wayward's rule of the day...
"Never ever ever go skydiving without going parachuting immediately afterwards."
100% PURE ADRENALENS

[AFFI 0]

Quote

Remster/AFFI,
Yes, you can question me, but as I originally said, I was in the saddle by 2100 - a lot different than the Cypres fire....Or I can just retract my statement and said that I pulled fine since no one has any video to prove otherwise. Again, I was damn sure to do practice touches before next jump and found the hackey and pulled the first time.

It was not an attack on you or your practices but rather a heads up call for others who read these forums who might be tempted to make alterations to their recommended emergency procedures.

The person who got lucky in the OP and had a successful Cypress fire is a testament to what can happen when the adrenalin gets pumping. Just because we have AAD’s does not mean they will work in every situation when burning through 750 feet and even the coolest of individuals can easily loose track of altitude in a high speed situation irregardless of experience level.
-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

Quote

We, as the more experienced skydivers, have a duty to be sure about what we are doing with the newer folks.

Quote

Jumps
License
In sport
: 1333
: D 28195
:3 years

huh.

You should cut him some slack here. I know in my 4 1/2 years in this sport, I for sure HAVEN'T seen it all and I still have tons more to experience and learn. But if you took his current jump numbers (sure who knows if he can sustain the pace he's been on) and add it up over 16 years, he'll have over 7000 jumps by that time.

This sport has a way of people judging others for all the wrong reasons.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

We, as the more experienced skydivers, have a duty to be sure about what we are doing with the newer folks.

Quote

Jumps
License
In sport
: 1333
: D 28195
:3 years

huh.

You should cut him some slack here. I know in my 4 1/2 years in this sport, I for sure HAVEN'T seen it all and I still have tons more to experience and learn. But if you took his current jump numbers (sure who knows if he can sustain the pace he's been on) and add it up over 16 years, he'll have over 7000 jumps by that time.

This sport has a way of people judging others for all the wrong reasons.

I agree completely - what a terrible attitude. I have very little tolerance for skygod wannbes who think that you're not qualified to express an opinion as a skydiver unless you win a dick-swinging contest. I have to say that that is one particular vestige from Back In The Day that I definitely do not miss.

[WeakMindedFool 0]

Number of Jumps: 3800
Years in Sport: 16

Someday maybe I can average 240 jumps a year, then I can attack the messenger instead of the message If you feel that what I am saying shows a lack of understanding or experiance then by all means, jump in and show me the error of my ways. If, however, you have some other motivation, well... I hope posting made you feel better.

Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
Check out these Videos

[AMax 0]

You know what, I think he has a valid point. The jump numbers mean a lot but there are several other factors that add up to experience. Lets face it, slamming the base like that is a common mistake for a newbie, not for someone who has over a 1000 dives. In fact, after watching the initial fragment of the video (up to the point of impact), I had an impression that most people on that dive were under 200 jumps. The term combat RW was already mentioned here and that exactly what I sought too. My comments are not directed at you or a person who caused a collision. The point is that quick progression to certain jump numbers (especially when most of these jumps are in the same discipline) does not necessarily make you experienced skydiver. Approaching the base on a belly load requires the skills that you don’t normally practice on freefly jumps. In this case, your 1000+ experience is relative.

[WeakMindedFool 0]

I think he has no point. At least not one germain to the conversation up untill he posted. The point of the video and post was to expose safety issues on the jump as well as to stimulate conversation about how to avoid them. He took exception to the fact that I had the temerity, at only 1333 skydives and 3 years in the sport, to describe myself as experienced. Of course we all have more to learn. Does the fact that I have more to learn invalidate the points that I have made?
We can argue about what consitutes experience, years in sport, currency, jump numbers, it doen't matter. At least not in this instance. What matters is that we learn from mistakes and do our best to make sure that everyone goes home safe. Lastly, ALL experience is relative.

Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
Check out these Videos

[Feeblemind 1]

Jason,

Nice video!! The added text really pointed out the issues and made the video very educational

I have read all the posts and scratched my head a bit. I am not going into detail on the errors as they have been clearly identified and addressed.

I will however comment on the base: the jump numbers of the base consisted of 175, 500+ and 650. Boomer and I have based numerous hybrids together and with others without issue. The base was dirt dived exit to break off and our portion of the dive flow performed as designed. I take exception to someone questioning a 175 jump person being on an 8-way hybrid with out quantifying their comments. IMHO it would have been better to ask “why” a 175 was in the base, one of us could have explained that this jump consisted of 8 REGULARS at the DZ that have frequently jumped together, knew each others experience/skill level and that the 175 was in a slot sufficient to his skill level.

Cass, No worries I will jump with you anytime!! As Jason said, we have all taken out a formation, we hate making the error but we all learn from it.

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked