Stalling your canopy

[nael 0]

I'm jumping a safire2 189 at the moment, I only have 4 jumps on it - just off student canopies. I'm having trouble stalling it. I managed to stall one of the student canopies, a 240 a couple of times but I just cannot get this thing to stall no matter what I seem to do.

I've tried pulling the toggles down slowly, yanking them down fast, holding them down for at least 30 seconds(sometimes longer), still no luck. This wouldnt bother me too much, but my instructor will not pass me to jump my own gear until I stall this canopy.

So, does anyone have any ideas how I can do this? I've told him how I'm trying to stall it, and told him I think the problem is the break lines are too long for me but he said he has stalled this canopy (and he is about my size), so I should also be able to - makes sense, so why can't I?

I dont know if it makes a difference or not, but this is a hire rig, and the harness is a little too big for me, making it a little difficult to reach the toggles in full drive. I'm not sure if my instructor jumped this canopy in this rig, or put it in another rig that fit him better.

Any advice would be appreciated! (I did a search before I posted, but couldnt find anything on this specifically).

www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store

[mr2mk1g 10]

It’s nice to hear of requirements like this.

Clear this with your instructor BEFORE you give it a go and needless to say this should only be done up high… but the common method of solving the problem you have is to wrap the break lines round your hands once or twice and then try it.

Have your instructor ok this and give you a back up plan in case of entanglement should it fail to re-inflate correctly. A small risk but hey, this sports all about managing risks.

[nael 0]

I've told my instructor already that I dont want to take a wrap of the break lines because I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that, and he agreed with me that I shouldn't. So, that's not really an option.

I've had other jumpers tell me the same thing, but I can just see so many possible problems with doing that. As soon as I mentioned it (last week) to my instructor he told me not to do it. Any other ideas?

www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store

[BETO74 0]

I don't know why he would like you to stall a safire maybe because is lightly loaded, since safire's are semi-elliptical you have a higher risk of creating your own line twist whatch your altitude make sure you're high enough, I had a Safire loaded 1.4 and the stall point was down ass level, take your togles and pull them down until your hands meet at your lowers back level your butt that should work, this is just to show you how much flare you have before stalling the canopy, I did the canopy course with Brian and because I was fliying a crossfire he made me skip that exercise were you stall the canopy to collapse point, since the canopy is agressive. Remember to slowly not fast let the togles go back to full flight.

http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html

[RyanofOZ 0]

Maybe you can ask if you are allowed to stall on rear risers? Its a more violent stall, but its easier than toggles on my Spectre. I cant stall my spectre w/ out wraps.

Oz

[piisfish 135]

was going to suggest the rear risers too....

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Stumpy 256]

Are the brakelines very slack when they are up at the keepers (after you have released them from the half brake setting)? If so there may be a little leeway for your club rigger/instructor to shorten them to make it easier to stall (I wouldn't do this myself without checking and supervision). Otherwise i'm with the others - you either need to take a wrap or use rear risers, but like was said before, rear risers will stall quite quickly and you need to check with your instructor whether this is a good idea for you.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[Icon134 0]

From your profile it appears that you are relatively lightly loading the wing. (I have difficulty stalling a Sabre2 190 at 0.9 w/l)

I know that several of my instructors would not suggest a rear riser stall. (because as was said in some of the other messages it is a bit less forgiving then a toggle stall...) if you can keep your hands in your loops and grab the top of the loops you might be able to glean a bit more pull on the toggles... without wrapping them.

Scott

p.s. I don't like to stall my canopy... I know it is important I just don't like the feeling of a stalled wing.

[Staso 0]

i used to jump safire2-149 loaded at about 1.4. i'm 6'2" and have pretty long arms but it was not enough to stall the canopy. icarus canopies have very long input range in general. i can't stall my crossfire2-139 either. the purpose of stalling your canopy is to know when it happens and how it feels like, so you could recognize it and prevent it from hapenning at the wrong moment. since it doesn't really happen on your canopy, then why bother ? i might be wrong, but i don't see other reasons to stall your canopy. well maybe for fun :)

stan

--
it's not about defying gravity; it's how hard you can abuse it. speed skydiving it is ...
Speed Skydiving Forum

[flyinfree 0]

And why are you being required to stall your canopy???

Fatality at chicagoland(hinkley, Il) was caused by
this..

[MarkM 0]

Quote

And why are you being required to stall your canopy???

Fatality at chicagoland(hinkley, Il) was caused by
this..

If I remember right, that was because he stalled his canopy out below 1500 feet. You shouldn't be screwing around like that below your hard deck.

If you pull the toggles all the way down, hold it and the canopy doesn't stall you're gonna have to wrap the brake lines or use the rear risers. There's no other "magical" way to make it stall that I've ever heard of.

[mattjw916 2]

My thoughts exactly... I was under the impression that it was not necesary to be able to stall your canopy in order for you to be able to pilot and land it safely.

The only canopy I have ever stalled was a Nav 280 that was VERY lightly loaded. I really did not enjoy the resulting ~6 foot drop to the ground.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[pilotdave 0]

Quote

I know that several of my instructors would not suggest a rear riser stall. (because as was said in some of the other messages it is a bit less forgiving then a toggle stall...)

I had a great time with stalls during Scott Miller's canopy course a couple weeks ago. Rear riser stalls were nothing... tail flaps around a little. Toggle stalls were pretty wild. Canopy folded right back until the end cells basically touched. Holding it there was so unnatural, but since Scott said it was ok, I figured what the heck and just held it there until it started to turn.

Dave

[davelepka 4]

***The only canopy I have ever stalled was a Nav 280 that was VERY lightly loaded. I really did not enjoy the resulting ~6 foot drop to the ground
===================================

This is why you stall a canopy intentionally, at altitude. Once you have experienced it safely at 2000+ ft, you are less likely to do what you did at 6 ft. The outcome would have been worse if you had done this a second or two sooner (as in 10 or 12 ft higher).

[quade 3]

Quote

Toggle stalls were pretty wild. Canopy folded right back until the end cells basically touched.

Sounds to me as if it went well beyond stall.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,421]

>And why are you being required to stall your canopy???

Because you can then learn to recover from the resulting stall.

>Fatality at chicagoland(hinkley, Il) was caused by this..

. . . and might have been prevented by knowing how to recover.

[Nullified 0]

Quote

Maybe you can ask if you are allowed to stall on rear risers? Its a more violent stall, but its easier than toggles on my Spectre.

Rear riser stalls happen more abruptly and with less warning, but they are a very docile stall. You can actually continue steering the canopy while stalled with rear risers.

Quote

Toggle stalls were pretty wild. Canopy folded right back until the end cells basically touched.

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Sounds to me as if it went well beyond stall.

Depending upon who you ask. There seems to be a difference of opinion as to what a stall is.
If you talk with Scott, he'll describe a true stall as when the canopy creases down the center and the end cells fold back and touch eachother. This is somewhat violent...and fun.

As long as you have stalled the canopy symetrically, keep your body position good and let the canopy reinflate slowly and symetrically, there usually aren't any problems.

Think of it as a 2nd deployment!

If your instructors have told you not to take a wrap, listen to them.
I always have to take a wrap to get my canopies to stall, and have never had any problems. When you're more experienced you might decide to try this, but again, for now, listen to your instructors.

Stay safe,
Mike

Edited for spelling

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.

[Fast 0]

I guess the end all answer to this is:


If the DZ rigger says the brakelines are the right length (which they probally are) and you don't take wraps you wont stall the canopy. Based on the fact that you are already pulling the toggles as far as they can go. If your instructor thinks that taking a wrap is a bad idea and/or you think its a bad idea, then barring a change in the laws of physics you won't get the canopy to stall, does your instructor know that you have tried everything and it won't work? Maybe see if he will come fly relative to you and watch what your doing. It will at least prove to him that your trying to stall the canopy but just can't get the toggles down far enough.

Above all, just listen to thier advice... they know the situation much better.

p.s. The student gear, for example, at my DZ has been set up so most people can't cause a stall w/o taking a wrap.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[FrogNog 1]

I can get a couple extra inches of toggle pull by rotating my wrists down. On some canopies I jumped, this was exactly what it took to push them from "mushy flight" to "stall-whoah-hey!".

When you pull the toggles all the way down, see if you can rotate your hands so your knuckles point toward the ground.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[FrogNog 1]

Quote

Rear riser stalls happen more abruptly and with less warning, but they are a very docile stall. You can actually continue steering the canopy while stalled with rear risers.

When my Hornet 190 is at incipient rear riser stall, it looks like it's trying to pack itself. The wingspan stays about the same but the chord shortens as the nose and tail start to come together. I was surprised at how docile it was.

But I had been warned by one of my instructors that a brakes-stowed full-on rear riser stall can take a LONG time to reinflate, so I should do it way up high - higher than normal screwing around stuff. I still haven't gotten the balls to do this yet.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[Scrumpot 1]

I've jumped the exact same canopy & have probably nearing 800 jumps on both Safire 1's & Safire 2's (and of similar size) combined. Someone else has mentioned rear riser stalls, as well as a concern over potentially creating line twists due to stalling this canopy in general.

#1. Rear Riser Stalling on a Safire 2. ...You will find this WAY EASY to do, especially as compared to attempting to do this with just toggles alone. I would say that the stall (as compared to toggle stalling as well) will be much more "sudden", but not necessarilly mor "violent", as someone else has mentioned. -Definitely check with your instructor 1st as to if he will allow or would recommend this method for you (I don't see why not, as IMHO you probably WANT to know/get a feel for the difference in stall point between the 2 methods anyway!).

2. Toggle stalls without taking a "wrap". You can do this too. As you have as a result of all your attempts now by default noticed, the toggle stroke on this canopy is considerably longer/deeper than many others. That does not mean necessarilly that the brake lines are too long in of itself. But in combination with the harness size being a scootch big on you with this, is propbably your "problem". Toggle (brake line) pressure on this canopy should be light enough that once you have your hands in the toggles ...if it is just the "wrap factor" that you are concerned with, you SHOULD still be able to (in full flight -hands all the way up) still reach a good 3-4" above the toggles & just grab the lines securely enough with your hand to pull them down from that point. If you can, this should also be sufficient enough to give you the toggle stall that you are looking for. Again, begin with your hands all the way up, in full flight. Then pull the toggles evenly down your desired 3-4" only initially & "reach through" your toggle that distance to the brake line just below the line guide-ring on your risers & see if you can't get enough grip on it at that point to make your pull from.

If any or all of this has been already sugested to you in subsequent posts, my apologies for any redundancies as i just jumped right to "reply" right up here in only the 3rd post in the string before reading any farther.

I really like to see that such an apparently thorough canopy control and familiarization program is going on as a part of your progression! ...Something I wish I had back when I 1st started out. I probably did not even stall a canopy ever at all until something like 200 jumps otherwise, and I sure could have probably used the "knowledge" in actuality, well before that! Kudo's to your instructors for their sticking to this with you accordingly. And good luck to you & best wishes for your progression which is resulting too!

Oh yeah, and PS as to the line twists concern because this being a semi-eliptical canopy... out of dozens of BOTH toggle and/or rear-riser stalls, this has happened to me ony twice (both on full riser, and then held for quite some time) stalls. Although it is a legitimate consideration, generally, I have found this canopy to recover fairly straight, and on heading most of the time. Depending on how much weight you shift in the harness (and I load mine as well a bit higher than you do) it may either dive to the right or the left, but as you "fly it out", I have not found it to have a great "desire" to twist up ...again, just generally, and in my experience. Hope all of this input helps!

Blue Skies,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[parachutist 1]

Quote

And why are you being required to stall your canopy???

Because if you know where the stall point is (find this point at high altitude) then you know how to avoid stalling your canopy at low altitude. One of the first things I do when jumping an unfamiliar canopy is stalling it to see where it stalls and how it will react.

Also, if you know where the stall point is, then you know how to get the most flare out of your canopy. The last little bit of flare that you can squeeze out of your canopy occurs right before the stall point.

[diablopilot 2]

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Sounds to me as if it went well beyond stall.

What is "beyond" a stall?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[nael 0]

Quote

Toggle stalls were pretty wild. Canopy folded right back until the end cells basically touched. Holding it there was so unnatural, but since Scott said it was ok, I figured what the heck and just held it there until it started to turn.

That's how long my instructor wants me to hold the stall for too.

I'm heading to the dz now, I'll talk to him before doing a jump, and if he doesnt want me trying rear riser stalls I'll ask him to fly relative to me, and watch what I do.

Thanks everyone for the advice!

www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store

[pilotdave 0]

If this was bonfire, I'd say a urinal is beyond a stall.

But here in S&T, i'd agree with nullified above that it depends how you define a stall. I mean in planes there's something some people call a deep stall. Sure, it's still a stall, but... deeper. Has a stall occured when the canopy rocks back, or is it only a stall when the canopy folds in half? I'd say they're both stalls (aerodynamically), but one is deeper than the other.

Dave