Jump plane pilots

[hudsonderek 0]

hey everyone,
This post is to share my frustration with insurance companies. I'm a low time pilot (500 hours) with about 100 hours jump pilot time (c-182). I'd like to get into flying divers out of a king air, otter, or other multi turbine, but most DZ's require a minimum of 1000 hours with some multi turbine time. I've heard of some regionals hiring with less time! this seems bogus to me, I could fly around passengers without parachutes in IMC conditions at around 800 hours, but I don't have enough hours to meet most DZ's insurance policies? and please explain to me how someone can build twin turbine time without morgaging their house? I know aviations a game of "who you know" but it seems ironic when jump pilot positions don't pay that well, yet the requirements are higher than better paying flying jobs. can anyone explain?

[airtwardo 6]

So goes the life of a Jumper Dumper....you pilot guys should be PAYING us!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[mark 102]

Jump pilot: less training = higher risk. Requiring more experience is a way of compensating for the lack of formal training and supervision. Also, most jump pilot time is PIC almost from the start.

Commuter/regional: formal training program + better supervision = lower risk. And you start out as SIC.

Mark

[TMPattersonJr 0]

Quote

hey everyone,
This post is to share my frustration with insurance companies. I'm a low time pilot (500 hours) with about 100 hours jump pilot time (c-182). I'd like to get into flying divers out of a king air, otter, or other multi turbine, but most DZ's require a minimum of 1000 hours with some multi turbine time. I've heard of some regionals hiring with less time! this seems bogus to me, I could fly around passengers without parachutes in IMC conditions at around 800 hours, but I don't have enough hours to meet most DZ's insurance policies? and please explain to me how someone can build twin turbine time without morgaging their house? I know aviations a game of "who you know" but it seems ironic when jump pilot positions don't pay that well, yet the requirements are higher than better paying flying jobs. can anyone explain?

How may of those passengers will be hanging outside of the airplane with the slight possibility of a container coming open and all hell breaking loose. While they're out there you also have only half of the lift on your horozontal stab. on the edge of a stall. What are they thinking... sounds like any other pilot job I know of..........Not trying to pick a fight, just trying to understand why some pilots only think that the jump pilots have the easiest job in the world. Take off, climb to altitude, open door, boot jumpers, close door (if applicable), decend, land pick up new load and repeat. It can be a hair raising experience and if you don't already have the knowledge to maintain the aircraft in conditions that most pilots might never experience. That's why the insurance companies do not like low time pilots flying the bigger jump planes. Start off at a 182 DZ and work on your hours there. It's not great money but at least you're making something while attaining your goal. Then if you can get into something bigger (Caravan, PAC 750, etc....) then move up. But don't be in a rush to make a fortune flying jumpers.....beside packers they are the only profession in skydiving that haven't gotten a serious raise since I've been around the sport in '83. Good luck in your flying ambition. I hope it works well for you.

Blue SkiesBlack DeathFacebook
www.PLabsInc.com
www.SkydiveDeLand.com
www.FlyteSkool.ws

[itllclear 1]

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And you start out as SIC.

Bingo-

With the regionals you start out as an apprentice, under the direct supervision of an experienced captain. You might be hired as SIC with 500 hrs., but will need another 1,000 hrs. in the right seat before you can upgrade to captain.

When you're flying jumpers, you get maybe 30 hours check out and then you're on your own.

Which is more risky?

BSBD

Harry

"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your statement answered your question."

[kallend 1,623]

I'm a pilot wth more than twice your hours, and the thought of someone with less hours than me flying a twin turbine full of jumpers gives me the creeps. I think the insurance companies are right.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[davelepka 4]

Baby stpes. Baby steps. Start with a single turbine, like a Caravan. Build some turbine time, then find a DZ with an Otter who will let you fly right seat. Build some time there, and then you're all set.

Really though, how easy did you think it was going to be to get in the left seat of an aircraft worth half a million dollars (or more)? Especially when that's by far the most expensive piece of equipment the DZ has, and represents at least 90% of their assets?

The regionals present a very structured, very regimented situation for a pilot to get into. Being SIC and working in the system builds your time and experience. Flying jumpers is like the wild west. Wen you're PIC, it's just you and what you know calling 100% of the shots. Factor in a 30-something year old twin turbine (most likey a shade or three behind Part 135 maintenence specs), un-controlled fields, and 20 some idiots in the back, and you've got quite a challange onyour hands.

[cutter29 0]

Are you a flight instructor? do you have twin time? make sure you get your MEI and go build hours like 95% of everyone else in aviation. when you hit 1,000 hours get some real world flying(and turbine time) under your belt then head back to the DZ. at 500 hours flying pic in a twin turbine with the cg shifts of jump run flying near the stall point..... not the best ideas.

[johnjds 0]

morgage your house.

[dannydan 0]

I kind of think of NEWBIE jump pilots as (less than 300hrs) as an "apprenticeship" in a union that has 3-5yrs before they EARN their card to a JOURNEYMAN...
Hang in there, do what YOU "HAVE" to do and it WILL come to ya!.. I am at a 182dz with low hour pilots from the university program (UofI at Willard CMI) and I love our pilots, they get there do OUR (collectively) job and they don't bitch! AND...They totally love what they are doing to boot! Years ago when I started, we had a pilot that was always edgy cause He wanted more and more... That kinda made everyone else a lil nervous! Yesterday higher than normal winds with 5 loads and Andy was dead on and HAPPY, today NO JUMPS, but WE made sure that our pilot had a GREAT day with some round cargo chute wind surfing down the taxi on our dirt dive boards.... It was a freaKing blast and Chris was ELATED....
Like I said, hang in there and it WILL come!!!
Best Regards derek.... : DD

[hudsonderek 0]

I'm an instructor as well guys, flying jumpers is a way easier job. I have about three close calls a day with students where as I had none with my 100 hours of C-182 jump pilot time. perhaps I was lucky. Plus, otters are much less complicated to fly than per se, a Seminole, or Seneca... no shock cooling issues, cowl flaps etc. if jumpers having a container open on exit is an issue, that's not my fault as a pilot, it's yours as a jumper that doesn't do good gear checks and why should the liability fall back on me as a pilot and not you guys as jumpers? (by the way I jump as well and don't have the usual jumper pilot, who doesn't jump, disdain for jumpers). insurance companies basically blow, but hey, they've got to be filthy rich, so why not charge outrageous amounts and have ridiculous requirements because of the few that make mistakes and have accidents?

[CSpenceFLY 1]

How old are you?

[relyon 0]

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I'm an instructor as well guys, flying jumpers is a way easier job. I have about three close calls a day with students where as I had none with my 100 hours of C-182 jump pilot time. perhaps I was lucky.

Perhaps you were. When I compare the risks of instructing helicopter students to putting out jumpers, I come to a different conclusion. At least with students, I know who is trying to kill me and have some idea as to how. I'd love to have my fixed wing commercial and put out jumpers on weekends for fun, but easy or without risks it's not.

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... if jumpers having a container open on exit is an issue, that's not my fault as a pilot, it's yours as a jumper that doesn't do good gear checks and why should the liability fall back on me as a pilot and not you guys as jumpers?

Perhaps because as the final authority with respect to all aspects of a given flight operation that responsibility is ultimately the PIC's?

Bob

[shermanator 3]

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if jumpers having a container open on exit is an issue, that's not my fault as a pilot, it's yours as a reply]

so... does anyone have those pictures handy, of the planes, where the chute came out inside the plane, and pulled the jumper out, pulling the entire side of the aircraft off? ... or stories of the premature off the plane, and the parachutist stuck on the tail, or premature in door, and parachutist taking out the elevator... that kind of thing.... guess, that the pilot has to deal with it in those cases, right? thats not just the jumper dealing with it..

CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
CSA #720

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[diablopilot 2]

First, geting hired by a regional does mean that you might be flying pax around in IMC, but that's with a higher time experienced captian in the right seat to help out when everything starts going wrong.

Second, you could fly a jump plane with much less than 1000 hours, however the opperator is going to have to pay a whole lot more in insurance, are you worth it?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Broke 0]

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I'm an instructor as well guys, flying jumpers is a way easier job. I have about three close calls a day with students where as I had none with my 100 hours of C-182 jump pilot time. perhaps I was lucky. Plus, otters are much less complicated to fly than per se, a Seminole, or Seneca... no shock cooling issues, cowl flaps etc. if jumpers having a container open on exit is an issue, that's not my fault as a pilot, it's yours as a jumper that doesn't do good gear checks and why should the liability fall back on me as a pilot and not you guys as jumpers? (by the way I jump as well and don't have the usual jumper pilot, who doesn't jump, disdain for jumpers). insurance companies basically blow, but hey, they've got to be filthy rich, so why not charge outrageous amounts and have ridiculous requirements because of the few that make mistakes and have accidents?

A pincheck may not be your problem, but a jumper wrapped around your tail would most certantly be your problem

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192

[ltdiver 3]

Here's an excellent read: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=203019;search_string=bootie%20hooked;#203019

When I read about the 206 I actually stood up and applauded. The talent of that pilot to bring his ship back to earth and not injure the skydiver hooked on the outside was just amazing.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[billvon 2,400]

>insurance companies basically blow, but hey, they've got to be filthy rich,
>so why not charge outrageous amounts and have ridiculous requirements
>because of the few that make mistakes and have accidents?

Because there's no such thing as a cheap, minor aircraft incident.

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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if jumpers having a container open on exit is an issue, that's not my fault as a pilot, it's yours as a jumper that doesn't do good gear checks and why should the liability fall back on me as a pilot and not you guys as jumpers?

That may be, but the fact that it's "the jumper's fault" isn't going to be much help when YOU are the one flying and YOU accepted the risk that some jackass jumper might not check his gear correctly, and YOU have to save your own life and those of everyone else on board.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[diverdriver 5]

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hey everyone,
This post is to share my frustration with insurance companies. I'm a low time pilot (500 hours) with about 100 hours jump pilot time (c-182). I'd like to get into flying divers out of a king air, otter, or other multi turbine, but most DZ's require a minimum of 1000 hours with some multi turbine time. I've heard of some regionals hiring with less time! this seems bogus to me, I could fly around passengers without parachutes in IMC conditions at around 800 hours, but I don't have enough hours to meet most DZ's insurance policies? and please explain to me how someone can build twin turbine time without morgaging their house? I know aviations a game of "who you know" but it seems ironic when jump pilot positions don't pay that well, yet the requirements are higher than better paying flying jobs. can anyone explain?

As a regional FO you have someone watching over you at all times. I've flown with guys with 500 total time and it can be rough and some times it can be a good time. A lot depends on the attitude of the pilot and their willingness to learn.

As a jump pilot you are alone once they "turn you loose". Your integrity will determine if you will follow the rules or not. And history shows that often people do not act with the highest integrity. Totally preventable accidents happen over and over in skydiving jump planes. So it has nothing to do with you. It has everything to do with this industry lacking the ability to recognize the problem and address training issues. So, the insurance company isn't in the business of training. It's in the business of assessing financial risk and this industry fails to do anything about it. They just blame the big bad mean insurance companies for requiring high time (I don't view 1,000 hours total time as "high").

Personally, I flew jumpers at about 500 total (started) and did that for about 700 hours before I got into a twin otter. Had 1,400 total and 100 multi-engine. Times were different then.

So if you want get a job with a regional, get the ME time then quit to come back to flying jumpers.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[MooChooser 0]

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I'm an instructor as well guys, flying jumpers is a way easier job. I have about three close calls a day with students where as I had none with my 100 hours of C-182 jump pilot time. perhaps I was lucky. Plus, otters are much less complicated to fly than per se, a Seminole, or Seneca... no shock cooling issues, cowl flaps etc. if jumpers having a container open on exit is an issue, that's not my fault as a pilot, it's yours as a jumper that doesn't do good gear checks and why should the liability fall back on me as a pilot and not you guys as jumpers? (by the way I jump as well and don't have the usual jumper pilot, who doesn't jump, disdain for jumpers). insurance companies basically blow, but hey, they've got to be filthy rich, so why not charge outrageous amounts and have ridiculous requirements because of the few that make mistakes and have accidents?

3 close calls per day! As an instructor aren't you supposed to make sure mistakes don't get to "close call" status?

You mention that otters are much less complicated than seminoles/senecas due to lack of shock cooling and cowl flaps.
I've never flown an otter, but I fly about 600 hours per year on a different twin turbine jumpship and can assure you that it is just as easy to damage turbine engines as pistons if you don't manage them correctly. The big difference however is in the price of the mistakes you make.

In my opinion, 1000 hours is a good number.

[hudsonderek 0]

people learn through doing, if I didn't let students try and mess up then they'd never learn. instructors are just there mostly to make sure the students don't mess up to the point they hurt themselves and damage the plane, past that you have to be willing to take the huge bounces almost off the runway landings with a smile and "well that was good, but next time lets try doing this". diver driver, you speak to my heart, times were different "back then" aviations gone downhill in recent years, I remember when I could rent a J-3 cub for $45 an hour 10 years ago, now, mostly because of insurance it's nearly impossible to rent that same plane (if you can even find one) for anything less than $100 an hour. Flyings gotten more pricey (not following normal inflation) and restrictive recently (post 9/11) and then the FAA wonders why GA is a dieing industry. lets hope LSA takes off and succeeds. but I digress. I'm a low time pilot, with no incidents or accidents (my day shall come, I'm sure) that just gets a little frustrated when my total hours is the only limitation preventing me from flying positions. experience is great and definately builds to your skills, but what do you say when airliners take off from the wrong runway (Comair Flight 5191, check your mag compass dude) and kills everyone on board, I bet they had thousands of hours and Insurance companies have to dish out tons when shit like that happens, basically what I suppose it comes down to is that people need to stop fucking up and making preventable mistakes and our economy needs to be stronger so insurance companies can make more from investments rather than focusing on premiums as their sole means of income. Unfortunately we're all humans and I doubt neither of those things will happen, so I guess it's 1000 hours and networking for me.

[skyberdyber 0]

I can explain, you need to grow up. Your post is it's own answer.

http://www.skydiveatlanta.com
http://www.musiccityskydiving.com

[kallend 1,623]

www.star-telegram.com/business/story/322928.html

Read it all, but I found this bit particularly disturbing:

In just the past year, 14 of the 21 regional and commuter airlines tracked by the consulting firm Air Inc. have reduced the hours of experience a pilot must have at the controls of any type of airplane. Trans States briefly lowered its requirement to 250 total hours last summer before raising it to 500, said Kit Darby, the firm's president.

Anyhow, if you can get a job with a regional at 400- 500 hours, why would anyone want to be a jump plane pilot?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[gemini 0]

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if you can get a job with a regional at 400- 500 hours, why would anyone want to be a jump plane pilot?

It must be for the glamor because it isn't for the money. The $22k per year quoted in the article is less than some jump pilots make.

Blue skies,

Jim