Body armour

[Royd 0]

I have recently taken up motorcycle riding, and in researching protective clothing, I've read accounts of riders walking away from high speed, high side crashes.
Has anyone considered, or worn body armour during swooping competitions, or practise?
I would think that it could save a lot of people from internal injuries.
Any thoughts?

[drudchen 0]

I guess it would save you from a rash if you wiped out on a motorcycle on asphalt/concrete road sliding at high horizontal speed. But i dont think it will have any major effect on broken bones if you dont level off and hit the ground with medium-high vertical speed.

[DougH 270]

If you do a search this topic has been debated before.

I can't think of many parallels between the way a motorcycle rider tumbles at high horizontal speed, and the way a low turner slams in with tons of vertical momentum into the ground that has little give. (unless of course you slide into a hard object, and in that case you aren't walking away)

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[AggieDave 6]

I wear MX pants to protect from roadrash, but comparing the armor from the motorcycle industry to what we need in swooping doesn't really work.

The MC armor protects from minor impacts and severe abrasion. If I am 20ft low and don't notice I'll hit the earth at a severe angle somewhere in the neighborhood of 75mph. Things break at that speed. Things break at half the speed. Having had been around a decent number of MC accidents I'll tell you that two things break bones and joints. The first in the initial impact. The second is the tumble. The rest is basically roadrash injuries.

In my experience with skydiving and people hooking in, the best armor we have as swoopers is simply a good swoop pond. I've seen more then one person walk away stunned and sore after chowing HARD into the water. The same sort of mistake that would have broken many bones on land.

Use water, wear a hard helmet, get coaching and progress slowly with a solid training plan.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[someday 0]

http://www.ridegear.com/power_reviews/pwr/product-reviews/www/Street-Protection/Icon/p/F__16581-Icon-Field-Armor-Vests.html

or

http://www.kneedraggers.com/details/Dainese_BAP_1--35-DA-12.html

the dainese protects from hyper exstention

[kelpdiver 2]

Even in a high side you're only falling from 5-10ft max, so if you have a long path to slide/tumble around, you could come off pretty well. I'm (sorta) proof of that with my 65mph getoff. I certainly would have benefitted from armor protecting my ribs/spleen from my arm. But the shoulder and hand was going to get it no matter what.

You might be able to wear the trunk armor or kidney protector, but most of it keeps your body pretty stiff. The shoulder armor is certainly going to screw up freefall. And if you don't come close to planing out before impact, its value is pretty low.

[flipper 0]

Seen a few pro swoopers wearin knee / shin protection during training ... and dont know any Base jumpers that dont wear it ...

[crashtested 0]

When snowboarding i don't wear my protective clothing for shits and giggles. its there to stop breaks when hitting rocks / trees in large or small falls.

Protective gear does help, as would using decent head gear ? not protec, It may not stop multiple breaks but it would limit the ammount of them, turning some into non threataning injures.

Agreed, hitting earth at 75mph is going to hurt some if on hard landing areas, but wearing some gear will at least take some absorbtion.. and may save your ass

[DoubleH 0]

I was thinking about something similar the other day. Rather than body armour i had a thought of a kind of air bag jump suit. If you're fucked and you have no chance of landing under a safe canopy you fire the suit and you're encased in air bags.....similar to how the mars rovers landed. Its still gonna hurt but at least your chances of living are increased.
Im a total noob to this sport so im sure there are excellent reasons not to do this (ie accidentally firing in the plane !!) but its an interesting thought.

[crashtested 0]

Quote

I was thinking about something similar the other day. Rather than body armour i had a thought of a kind of air bag jump suit. If you're fucked and you have no chance of landing under a safe canopy you fire the suit and you're encased in air bags.....similar to how the mars rovers landed. Its still gonna hurt but at least your chances of living are increased.
Im a total noob to this sport so im sure there are excellent reasons not to do this (ie accidentally firing in the plane !!) but its an interesting thought.

There was a design like this made for both back country snowboarding (avalanche risk) and for motorbikes, some of the funniest things i have seen, the main problem with the bike bags, was it was very much like a skidoo when you came off it automaticly fired, slightly embarresing when you where just stepping off your bike normally and had forgotten to disconnect the thing

To be honest parachute rigs are pretty reliable these days, most accidents i have read of are due to bad judgement calls, Swooping, or bad maintinance of equipment. very very rare to have a parachute which won't get you down alive!!!

[DoubleH 0]

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slightly embarresing when you where just stepping off your bike normally and had forgotten to disconnect the thing

Now that id like to see

[crashtested 0]

Quote

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slightly embarresing when you where just stepping off your bike normally and had forgotten to disconnect the thing

Now that id like to see

http://www.webbikeworld.com/r2/airbag-jacket/motorcycle-airbag-jacket.htm

Not the original one but still funny

[popsjumper 2]

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....Agreed, hitting earth at 75mph is going to hurt some if on hard landing areas, but wearing some gear will at least take some absorbtion.. and may save your ass

I don't think that will hurt. Your brain won't have time to register the pain before it liquifies. The armour may help keep the liquified guts inside...but that's what a jumpsuit is for.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

I was thinking about something similar the other day. Rather than body armour i had a thought of a kind of air bag jump suit.

We've been there, done that...we just never figured out a way to keep it inflated before it went out of style.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Royd 0]

Even in a high side you're only falling from 5-10ft max, so if you have a long path to slide/tumble around, you could come off pretty well. I'm (sorta) proof of that with my 65mph getoff. I certainly would have benefitted from armor protecting my ribs/spleen from my arm. But the shoulder and hand was going to get it no matter what.

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You might be able to wear the trunk armor or kidney protector, but most of it keeps your body pretty stiff. The shoulder armor is certainly going to screw up freefall. And if you don't come close to planing out before impact, its value is pretty low.

I was looking at the armour called 'pressure suits'. They seemed to be quite encasing with the ability to move. The back protector seems substantial.

If you survived a bounce, the chance of not breaking your back seem pretty good.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I was looking at the armour called 'pressure suits'. They seemed to be quite encasing with the ability to move. The back protector seems substantial.

I believe the Aerostitches market this - some form of foam that is a bit flexible but hardens when a sharper impulse is applied. Probably most effective for a long tumble, not so much for a harsh blow.

[happythoughts 0]

The use is totally different. MC armor is made to protect you on a skid, not a sharp sudden stop.

It works while sliding down the freeway at 40mph, but put a large van in front for an immediate stop, and you see the difference. (A friend of mine 3 months ago)

To test it, attach a bag of vegetable soup to a frisbee.
Go 40mph in your car and slide it on the road.
Then, try it again, except throw the bag at a large pile of dirt.

I've seen some helmets disintegrate during bad landings and that save some lives.

I don't armor will work.

[crashtested 0]

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To test it, attach a bag of vegetable soup to a frisbee.
Go 40mph in your car and slide it on the road.
Then, try it again, except throw the bag at a large pile of dirt.

I tried attaching a bag of soup to a frisbee yesterday, and launching it down the rd whilst driving at 40 miles per hour. Despite the good time had by all, it occured to me that this has nothing to do with the thread!!!! In actual fact all i was testing was the durability of soup packets whilst attached to frisbees @ 40mph!!

Thanks for wasting my day!!!!

[mr2mk1g 10]

Look, you can bitch at people all you like, but no level of armour is going to save anyone from a ruptured aorta.

That's what is more often than not the immediate cause of death following a hard impact following something like a hook turn. Your extremities can handle, (as in recover from), truly terrifying forces. The point of failure on the human body is the shock absorbing round the heart - it's simply not strapped down well enough to survive the sort of forces we're talking about.

You hit the ground and your body stops... unfortunately your heart carries on moving and to put it bluntly, rips free from its mountings. Oh, it carries on pumping ok, but all it's doing is pumping your chest cavity full of blood – that nice life-sustaining blood doesn't go anywhere useful because your aorta - the main artery that carries blood from your heat to everywhere else in your body, has a great big tear in it.

Armour will not stop this happening. Period.

Armour may help prevent less serious injuries from occurring in the first place, especially soft tissue injuries and limb breaks. Some of the Deonease armour I've seen could be quite nice on your spine too which isn't something to be overlooked...

But overall armour is not the panacea you seem to be seeking.

[Royd 0]

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The use is totally different. MC armor is made to protect you on a skid, not a sharp sudden stop.

It works while sliding down the freeway at 40mph, but put a large van in front for an immediate stop, and you see the difference. (A friend of mine 3 months ago)

To test it, attach a bag of vegetable soup to a frisbee.
Go 40mph in your car and slide it on the road.
Then, try it again, except throw the bag at a large pile of dirt.

I've seen some helmets disintegrate during bad landings and that save some lives.

I don't armor will

You are assuming that all impacts are straight into the ground.

From what I've looked at, the high quality body armour is designed for impact absorbtion. If road rash protection were the goal, then a thick leather suit is all that's needed.
My point is that if the impact doesn't kill you, but leaves you broken, armour may help you to be less broken.

[DougH 270]

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You are assuming that all impacts are straight into the ground.

Thats because most serious landing injuries are the result of impacts straight into the ground. Most people aren't getting seriously hurt because they crashed during the surf portion of their landing.

I have rolled away from tons of really bad landings unharmed because I was able to get rid of all my vertical speed at the last second and save my ass.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[crashtested 0]

So i guess the moral of the thread is...
no one can survive from a broken heart

Mulitple breaks, broken backs, ruptured lungs, internal bleeding, stress fractures, dislacations, compound fractues, and small cuts can all be reduced by wearing the apropriate impact clothing!!

The're not called "impact shorts" for nothing... other wise they'd be called expensive "shorts"

[pchapman 262]

Armour can provide various sorts of useful protection, such as preventing abrasion, preventing penetration by sharp objects, allowing a person to slide (not snag), or by distributing a load.

But when it comes to preventing sudden deceleration -- such as that from a high vertical velocity against the ground -- deceleration distance is the fundamental thing that matters, dictated by physics.

A one inch thick protective layer only has that one inch in which to decelerate the person hitting the ground, even if it crushes perfectly to zero thickness with some ideal deceleration profile.

So some things are unattainable with thin armor, no matter how good it is.

This doesn't solve the issue of what armour could be used, but places fundamental limits on what it can achieve.

For example, in paragliding they eventually realized that and went to very thick combinations of air and/or foam. Even if someone gets dropped on their ass essentially in freefall from a standing start just 2 m up (6.5 ft), the vertical impact speed will be around 6 m/s (14 fps). A well-engineered real-world foam & air bag 20 cm thick (8 in.) will be needed to prevent loads on the spine from going over 20g, above which spinal injury tends to occur. (These are very rough figures.)

[billvon 2,406]

>the high quality body armour is designed for impact absorbtion.

Not the stuff I've seen. Off-road armor is designed to prevent punctures i.e. by landing on a broken branch. Motorcycle leathers are designed to prevent abrasions. If armor were designed for impact attenuation, it would have a lot of thickness (at least several inches) like a bike helmet. Sort of a Michelin Man look.

[headcase 0]

So after 3 and 3/4ths bottles of 7% boutique brewery ale (think basement brew) I surmise the ideal device for preventing injury aside from good judgement, good equipment, and packing skills --and please don't forget the oh so important dash of luck a magentic pulse which increases its force exponentially with distance and could be turned counter to earth's magnetic force would provide just the proper amount of deceleartion in a timely fashion should it be activated similarly to an AAD pressure sensor...

Ah forget it I'm at 4 1/4 bottles of ale already and will need the juice required to activate the device to go to the liquor store for more......