Head down baby!

[Andy_Copland 0]

So today i done my first two head downs, both being 3-ways. What can i say, it was insanely fun.

Then the other weekend it was 8-way speed star, horny gorillas, trains and now head down.

Only thing i found awkward was checking my alti so eyeballed the ground time to time, 189mph to 120 before dumping is so much fun, makes you realise how fast you were actually going.

Edit: Congratulations to my jump buddy also, cant take all the credit here as it was his firt head down too

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[beowulf 1]

Be very careful. Two people very new to head down jumping together can be a recipe for disaster. It doesn't take much to track forward or backwards at very fast speeds. A collision could cause serious damage. Being in control at all times while head done is paramount. I have jumped with people that believed they were in control on their head when they were actually moving forward or backward very fast. It takes alot to make sure you don't get into any collisions.

[Andy_Copland 0]

3 new to head down, the other guy had done it with others but cant do it on his own.

But we just went linked. No one below us and experienced guys behind. It funneled for a while but when it was there it was just rock solid and we rode it down to 5k. Smiles all around

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[beowulf 1]

cool

not trying to say you guys weren't being safe, just be careful and run your game plans by experienced freeflyers. Especially new ideas and new orientations like head down. It's no joke, it can kill you.

[FlyinseivLP2 0]

Yea, 3 people who don't know what their doing is fine. 2 can be dangerous but with the 3rd you should have enough sense between you to make it safe. And if you are just planning on holding the 3 way what could go wrong, right?
Listen to beowulf, do some solos or get some coaching. Really with your jump numbers you probably need to work on your head up some more before you you tackle head down. All it takes is one good cork and there is a couple of more fatalities for the year.

[AFFI 0]

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cool

not trying to say you guys weren't being safe

Then I will say it -

You guys are not being safe...

_

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Suavel 0]

No sarcasm intended but:

I did my first head down at around jump number 75, it was with a very experienced skydiver and we were holding each other's rig at the shoulders. Arms length apart. He informed me before the jump that one of the big risks of newbie head-down was slamming into each other with accidental forward movement. Having four different contact points and four different arms holding each other at length negates most of that risk.

Were we being unsafe?

I've done a similar jump with someone slightly more experianced than myself, same grips, same orientation. I noticed it less stable but again, I didn't see it being particularly dangerous(as far as skydiving goes). Am I disillusioned?

Again, I'm not being sarcastic or intending to be disrespectful.

[beowulf 1]

I would be fine jumping with one person new to head down, but no more then that. It's hard enough to dodge one person much less two or three. This mostly applies to jumpers trying to learn head down. I don't think it's a good idea to have 3 people all new to head down on the same jump. Being grouped tightly together does reduce some of the risk, but at those speeds things can go bad really fast.

[bofh 0]

The problem isn't so much bumping into each other (after all you can't get so high speed if you are that close), but flying in the line of flight and opening up above/below others.

With three being relative new, there is of course also the risk of loosing someone near break time and then someone corks into someone else...

Let the base fly head up and the risk of the group flying the in the line of flight is much lower.

[bastichu 0]

Hi,
I have now 150 jumps and i also started doing
hd jumps together with another guy. We exit the plane linked and as soon as we are stable we release our link and try to fly in front of each other. it works pretty good. and whenever someone gets unstable we do transitions to sitfly and then go back into hd.
Sebastian

[Fast 0]

None of you guys who have stated "we just started doing head down" or something similar in this thread up to this point have enough experience to be flying head down. Thats all there is to it.

Stop trying to rush in the sport of skydiving, its only going to get you or someone else hurt

Just this weekend we had a collision on a freefly jump of 2 very experience freefliers. One of which has a hard time laughing at the moment because it hurts too much.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[Orange1 0]

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Edit: Congratulations to my jump buddy also, cant take all the credit here as it was his firt head down too

fwiw, this would be illegal in terms of the SA BSRs.

Head-down flying is only permitted after the successful completion of the Category III test and it
being signed off in the student’s logbook by the CI.
• Furthermore, students need to be approved by their Artistic Events Coach for Head-Down
before attempting 2-way Head-downs with anybody other than a coach.

edited to add for clarification:
Your Cat III in Artistic Events should be attainable (after many solo practice jumps) by 75 – 100 Artistic
Events free falls. On completion of this
test the coach should be satisfied that the student can fly in any 3 dimensional direction on his feet,
as well as being able to perform basic transitions. One must master the feet down position before
attempting head-down, so as to always be able to recover on this, your more natural orientation, to
avoid the dangers of corking.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[bastichu 0]

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None of you guys who have stated "we just started doing head down" or something similar in this thread up to this point have enough experience to be flying head down. Thats all there is to it.

Stop trying to rush in the sport of skydiving, its only going to get you or someone else hurt

Just this weekend we had a collision on a freefly jump of 2 very experience freefliers. One of which has a hard time laughing at the moment because it hurts too much.

ok, you have a point there. but i believe that a lot of the expereinced jumpers tkink that they are perfect and know everything. that's why they do stupid things and get hurt. there is a way to learn and practice hd with a minimum of risk for both jumpers. when you are linked you are close to each other and you'll realize your forward and backward speed. and i know how to control my speed. when the distance gets too big you should stop hd and do transitions to sit. but i also know that most of you guys will never listen to jumpers with less experience. it all depends on your personal skills. some people are more talented and learn faster than others. the guy that jumps with me has 500 jumps and he wouldn't jump with me if he felt that i couldn't control myself. of course you need a lot of experience. but if you want to do it you have to start someday. but that's my opinion.

[dragon2 0]

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None of you guys who have stated "we just started doing head down" or something similar in this thread up to this point have enough experience to be flying head down. Thats all there is to it.

Stop trying to rush in the sport of skydiving, its only going to get you or someone else hurt

Just this weekend we had a collision on a freefly jump of 2 very experience freefliers. One of which has a hard time laughing at the moment because it hurts too much.

ok, you have a point there. but i believe that a lot of the expereinced jumpers tkink that they are perfect and know everything. that's why they do stupid things and get hurt. there is a way to learn and practice hd with a minimum of risk for both jumpers. when you are linked you are close to each other and you'll realize your forward and backward speed. and i know how to control my speed. when the distance gets too big you should stop hd and do transitions to sit. but i also know that most of you guys will never listen to jumpers with less experience. it all depends on your personal skills. some people are more talented and learn faster than others. the guy that jumps with me has 500 jumps and he wouldn't jump with me if he felt that i couldn't control myself. of course you need a lot of experience. but if you want to do it you have to start someday. but that's my opinion.

Sure. Headdown AND jumping camera, at 150 jumps, with other newbies. I truly hope you don't end up in the incidents forum. Don't you guys have rules about this (what you're doing wouldn't be allowed in The Netherlands, on both counts), or at least a DZO or instructor who cares enough to keep new jumpers in one piece?!? But then, you know best, you're one of the fast learners, of course.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[kelpdiver 2]

Am I the only one who finds the notion of stand flying much more interesting than head down?

[bastichu 0]

See that is what I meant. You don't even listen.
Thats why I deleted my comments, doesn't make sense to post when you have less than 500 jumps.

[HydroGuy 0]

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Am I the only one who finds the notion of stand flying much more interesting than head down?

Probably...it so damn hard to get horizontal movement HU

Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary

[dharma1976 0]

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Am I the only one who finds the notion of stand flying much more interesting than head down?

Probably...it so damn hard to get horizontal movement HU

that is completely untrue...

it may be easier to close the gap headdown...but I prefer a lot of time to stay on my feet for less than oceanic size distances

Junky

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[pash 0]

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but i also know that most of you guys will never listen to jumpers with less experience.

that may be true. i hope you learn without incident that it's more important that YOU listen to the ones with more experience. they are just saying there is a right way and wrong way to go about it. (maybe safe vs less safe is more easily digestible).

why can't you get a FF coach and do some 2-ways with your buddies doing the same thing? then when you meet up with some more experience you can make the most of your dives.

why not take the path that gives you your best chance of success and safety? of course, it's your right to ignore my comments because i have fewer jumps

have fun and best of luck!
jason

[billvon 2,400]

>some people are more talented and learn faster than others.

Of course. But nearly every skydiver out there think they are more talented and learn faster than others. Sometimes it takes a few hundred jumps to realize they're not the best thing in the sky; sometimes it takes thousands. Most eventually get a good sense of what they can and can't do.

Many of us here would prefer if newer jumpers survived to get to that point. We've seen what can happen when a jumper decides he is just plain more talented than average, and can handle that hot new canopy/that camera/that bigway/that demo.

>doesn't make sense to post when you have less than 500 jumps.

Makes perfect sense to post. Makes even more sense to listen to the replies.

[Fast 0]

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See that is what I meant. You don't even listen.
Thats why I deleted my comments, doesn't make sense to post when you have less than 500 jumps.

Oh I forgot. Yep, your right. You know what your talking about. Sorry, I didn't realize you were better than everyone else with 150 jumps. Thats cool though man, I didn't mean to step on your toes. Go ahead and do whatever you want and ignore the advice of the people who have more experience. We are just trying to hold you back. Ya know, wouldn't want to hurt our egos getting shown up by some new guy now would we.

Sarcasm aside.

There is one guy on my DZ who is good, doesn't have lots of jumps, and is learning pretty fast. His air skills are great, more times than not his awareness level is lacking. I have dodged him before. There is a different guy who thought he knew everything about canopy flying too. Well there is video to prove otherwise. I guess it doesn't matter what you do, if you just accept that your uping your level of risk and might die and/or kill someone else. (who might have kids to feed, a loving s.o., and surely has parents that will miss them)


One thing you did get right though, don't bother posting if you are just going to laugh in the face of people who want to give advice and be helpfull. Most people who get to a point of giving advice have gotten there by seeing the mistakes others have made and not making them, making them and paying the price, or by getting lucky. I don't know about you, but I don't like to bet my life on luck. They only post to help you from making the same mistakes. People are also more conservative on here because its the internet and they don't know you at all. That doesn't change the fact that doing head down at 100-200 jumps is probably not the best idea in the world.

I don't get why people want to rush. I guess its, wanting to be like the big boys and fancy pros you see out there. Oh well. I guess you can all ignore the fact that they put in thier time working on the basics. You must be better than they are right?

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[FlyinseivLP2 0]

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"See that is what I meant. You don't even listen."

Who doesn't listen. Anyone with any experience says this is a bad idea. You think we are just trying to hold you back? It's dangerous. Why do you think it's the people with experience saying that? Because alot of them have done it or seen it and seen what can happen. That why they call it experience. As Dragon said you are also jumping a camera w/ 150 jumps when everything says thats not enough. But we are the ones who don't listen! It reminds me a fatality report this year that had a link to a post the person had made about 6 months earlier.

"Thats why I deleted my comments, doesn't make sense to post when you have less than 500 jumps."

Now you get it

[pincheck 0]

its is interesting how many people tend to be skilled or very talented with low jump numbers. sorry it doen't rub. i was told to progress do the numbers there are no short cuts. i always got told there is a progression to these things get at least(at least ), proficent in Rw then get coaching in Heads up get at least proficent,get coaching in head down. Its a case off running before you can walk seems to be happening everywhere in skydiving, thats just my 2 cents .

Andy behave yourself

Billy-Sonic Haggis Flickr-Fun

[Fast 0]

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its is interesting how many people tend to be skilled or very talented with low jump numbers. sorry it doen't rub. i was told to progress do the numbers there are no short cuts. i always got told there is a progression to these things get at least(at least ), proficent in Rw then get coaching in Heads up get at least proficent,get coaching in head down. Its a case off running before you can walk seems to be happening everywhere in skydiving, thats just my 2 cents .

Andy behave yourself

Yep. The tunnel is a perfect example of what you just said. You _must_ be able to hold heading, hold level, turn with control, move up and down, and side to side on your belly. Next you have to learn how to backfly, hold heading, turn with control, move up and down, and transition from belly to back, back to belly. Then you can start learning how to sitfly (well, they teach you to walk first, but anyways). Before they will let you start learning headdown, you must be able to, in a sit, hold heading, move up and down forward and back, turn in control, do flips w/o losing altitude(level). Then they let you learn headdown on the net only at low airspeed with a spotter. At least that is how it was done the last time I was in the tunnel.

The point of stating all of the above is that there is a progression. You have to be able to to basic things from the discipline one step down, before you take on something more advanced. While skydiving, (as opposed to tunnel) you also have to learn to be aware of all the people around you (both in your group, as well as the groups before and after you), learn to track for seperation, and learn to fly a canopy. That is a lot of stuff going on. Most people can't even remember how many points they turned or who did what on the skydive after they land either. (One more skill to master) All of that must go into learning to skydive. When you start skipping steps you are putting yourself and the others that jump around you in a state of elevated risk. I am personally not willing to accept someone with 100 jumps thinking he is hot shit and putting my life at risk. The risks I take, involve only me. (at least that is what I strive for.)

The thing is, that even after some skydivers get lots of jumps they don't take the time to sit and think about the risks and who they might affect. As much as most people want it to be, skydiving is not all about you. Skydiving is a team effort, even if you are not on a competative team. We are all in it together.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[apollard24 0]

Yep. The tunnel is a perfect example of what you just said. You _must_ be able to hold heading, hold level, turn with control, move up and down, and side to side on your belly. Next you have to learn how to backfly, hold heading, turn with control, move up and down, and transition from belly to back, back to belly. Then you can start learning how to sitfly (well, they teach you to walk first, but anyways). Before they will let you start learning headdown, you must be able to, in a sit, hold heading, move up and down forward and back, turn in control, do flips w/o losing altitude(level). Then they let you learn headdown on the net only at low airspeed with a spotter. At least that is how it was done the last time I was in the tunnel.
____________________________________________________________
They still do all those steps in the tunnel and I think its a great idea. I learned alot in the tunnel and about body positions and things I may have been doing wrong. My sit and stand was so much better after I did coaching in the tunnel and with a coach at the dz.

I agree completely on everything you have said in this thread.

Breathe out so I can breathe you in...