Another Legal Question - Neighbor McNasty

[DJL 232]

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I'm sure a call to his insurance company would have the fence taken down. Unless he has a very good reason for needing barbed wire, he has created a hazard to skydivers. One lawsuit by an injured jumper would be all it would take to wipe him and his insurance company out.

All that's going to happen if you escalate matters is that he'll call the cops on a safety meeting. The dropzone is a big fat soft target and if you get his attention he'll figure out a way to screw you back.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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The guy does sound like a moron.

I doubt that this guy just woke up one morning and decided to be a moron. In most cases I have seen when relations between a dz and their neighbors break down it is because of the jumpers being assholes. The actions of one or two jumpers can cause a split that can take years to mend.

Sparky

Kind-of reminds me of "God" not wanting us to land on his property next to Joe & Rose's at Apple Valley or that asshole that owned the hangar right next to the fuel pit, also, at Apple Valley that claimed the King Air starting up there after fueling was blowing dust and dirt into his hangar... as opposed to all the other aircraft.

Anyway, guess we brought some of that on ourselves too.

[pirana 0]

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Has anyone approached this guy and in a clam manner tried to work out something?

In Zhills, we have a tense understanding. He isn't fond of jumpers, but was approached by an old-school local and chatted with.

If someone has to come onto his property to get a chopped main, we will call first.

If someone lands there, we will use the gate.

Other than that, he still hates us, but it is a workable solution.

I jumped there years back right after graduating AFF. After the waiver and rental ritual, the first thing I was warned about was not landing there. They said something about alligators too, but I think they were just giving the new guy the business.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[stratostar 5]

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They said something about alligators too, but I think they were just giving the new guy the business.

Nope haven't you ever seen Carbone's dog,

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Lawdog1 0]

From my State (Mi) and point of view, he could face liability depending on the facst. Clearly he is on notice that, on occasion, jumpers land on his property. There is a forseeable risk of harm, even if the jumpers are trespassing, from the barbed wire. The fence probably doesn't matter. If a jumper injured his/herself climbing over the fence to leave the property, he may not be liable if there are other ways off the property. He may however have a probelm if a jumper flew into the barbed wire. I'd bet after the first claim against his homeowners policy his insurer would make him take it down.

my 2 cents

[Andy9o8 0]

I agree. Especially since I said it in post #5.

[kkeenan 13]

In this particular case, the fence is across the area where swoopers would run out a landing in the prime, "back yard" landing area of this DZ. There is a large landing area, toward the airport, but this was the "experienced" area. The posts are steel, driven into the ground, with the barbed wire stretched tight between them. To my eye, as a visiting jumper, it looked like a "skydiver trap". The neighbor has an incredible case of the ass for the DZ, and has only recently escelated to this radical level.

My whole purpose in starting this post was to see if it might be a good idea if someone, preferably a lawyer representing the DZ, wrote the neighbor a letter explaining the strategy that could be used against him in a hypothetical lawsuit. I still maintain that this is like the gun wired to the door to kill a burgler. This fence is far beyond anything needed for security. It is a clear message to the jumpers.

Kevin K.

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[futuredivot 0]

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In this particular case, the fence is across the area where swoopers would run out a landing in the prime, "back yard" landing area of this DZ.

I'm going to be unpopular here but it's one thing Mc to get hyper about an occasional off landing or rare cut-away main, but this sounds like nearly every load someone was on his property. That is wrong and inconsiderate. If the DZ is using his property as a landing, or run out area then either the DZ needs more property or more accurate jumpers.
I am paying for my property and I'll not begrudge anyone to make the occasional shortcut across-but if you're in my woods every day I don't care if you're picking flowers for disadvantaged kids, I'm going to run you off.
The fence is overkill but he's not all in the wrong.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[stratostar 5]

Well as a person who believe's that in this country I'm able to do what I want to my property that own and who the fuck are you to say I can't put a fence up with electirc and razor wire, flood light every two feet and have it patrolled by two big ass german shepards trained to eat the nut sack of any stupid ass skydiver who thinks their rights over rule my right to keep your sorry ass swoopers off my grass if I so choose to do so, in fact in some states I could shoot your ass once you step over the property line.

This is one of the problems in this country where special interest groups whine and cry about other peoples legal rights and then try to get lawyers and laws passed to get their way and trample on others peoples right because they don't like the fact that some one put up a fence blocking your swoop runout lane onto HIS property.

That is one of the problems with the sport today is all the people who fucking think their special because they make a skydive. If you hit the fence then you need to work on your landings and your eye sight.

You rights end where my rights begin, go ahead and spend some money on a lawyer and send your letter and piss off the guy some more, next thing you know a plane will crash from water or sugar or some shit in the tanks or the hanger will burn down one night........Not like it hasn't happened before.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[happythoughts 0]

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Has anyone approached this guy and in a clam manner tried to work out something?

In Zhills, we have a tense understanding. He isn't fond of jumpers, but was approached by an old-school local and chatted with.

If someone has to come onto his property to get a chopped main, we will call first.

If someone lands there, we will use the gate.

Other than that, he still hates us, but it is a workable solution.

I jumped there years back right after graduating AFF. After the waiver and rental ritual, the first thing I was warned about was not landing there. They said something about alligators too, but I think they were just giving the new guy the business.

Nope, they weren't kidding.

On his property, there is a pond that has some healthy alligators. A couple of years ago, someone chopped a main that went in the pond. One look and it stayed there.

[happythoughts 0]

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They said something about alligators too, but I think they were just giving the new guy the business.

Nope haven't you ever seen Carbone's dog,

Herc's a good dog.


You just can't eat a dog like that all at once.

[strop45 0]

I agree 100%. Its his property and he should be able to do anything he likes with it within the law. Once the fence is there and the DZ is aware of the hazard, its up to the DZ to manage it. The suggestions from some posters would see him unable to use this property in any manner whatsoever as someone might want to land there.

So now he can't park his car there, build a fence, graze cows, put a building just because someone might want to land there. IMO (not a lawyer), its up to the DZ to manage any hazard the fence produces, just the same as they manage the hazards caused by other buildings and obstacles on or near the air field.

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[kelpdiver 2]

the fence is quite defensible...it's the barb wire topping that stands out. One element discourages long landings - the other increases the physical price of doing so.

[stratostar 5]

the other increases the physical price of doing so. ***

If your going to be stupid, you better be tough.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Andy9o8 0]

He does have the right erect a fence to protect against trespass. He does not have the right to deliberately injure, especially with means that do not discriminate - his property or not. So the real issue is the barbed wire. Now if someone accidentally lands on the top of the fence and is injured by the barbed wire, it may very well be up to a jury to decide whether, under these specific circumstances, the barbed wire was (a) simply a reasonable measure to prevent (including deter) trespass, or (b) a deliberate intent to injure. The former might exonerate him, while the latter might hold him liable. And remember that perfectly reasonable judges and juries disagree with each other all the time.

No black or white here, folks. Sorry to disappoint.

PS I agree w/Strato that a letter from a lawyer will just wave a red cape in front of the bull. Yeah, you can take him to court, and yeah, sabotage of the DZ can happen in the middle of the night. You don't need that shit. Just keep your distance from the fucking guy already, and hope for the best.

[strop45 0]

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So the real issue is the barbed wire.

Fair enough, but I'm not so sure that a wire fence with a barbed wire on the top is any worse than a solid block fence or solid wooden fence should you fly into it.

Barbed wire fences are very common here and you couldn't draw any interference about its purpose or the thinking of its builder just from the fact that it had a barb wire on it. Maybe its different in the region around the DZ under discussion.

At least you can climb over a barbed wire fence, an electric fence is a whole other kettle of fish.

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[normiss 622]

But what if the jumper is allergic to peanuts and the farmer is growing peanuts???

[wmw999 2,122]

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But what if the jumper is allergic to peanuts and the farmer is growing peanuts???

You're a baaaaaaad man, normiss

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[jimjumper 25]

I agree with Stratostar on this one. Me and my wife own 20 acres in the desert and after about a year of the neighbors horse riders (from their boarding facility) and the other neighbors ATV's riding on our property we put up a fence, and yes its barb wire. We talked, asked, threatened, but in the end the fence was the most effective. You don't have the right to encroach on other peoples property even if it is only occasionally and not intentional.

[Andy9o8 0]

Your point is well-taken, but this is a good example of how imperfect analogies can be. Your analogy just doesn't fit the specific situation we're talking about. Barbed wire certainly can deter an intentional encroachment, but accidents do happen, and the barbed wire will do nothing to deter an accidental encroachment - say, for example, a student canopy pilot who, despite his best efforts, flies into the fence. As I said above, if that happens, it may well be up to a jury to decide if the neighbor's intent is to protect against intentional trespass, or deliberately injure an errant jumper unlucky (or unskilled) enough to make a mistake.

[faulknerwn 36]

Its an odd concept to me - practically all fences in TX have barbed wire at the top. And I've climbed over a gazillion of em in my area.. I doubt there is anyone around the area who can hop fences with less effort than me :-)

Apparently barbed wire isn't common where this dz is?

[futuredivot 0]

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Barbed wire certainly can deter an intentional encroachment,

And it sounds like he's been dealing with a history of intentional enchroachments

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but accidents do happen, and the barbed wire will do nothing to deter an accidental encroachment

Nope, but it'll ecourage you to accidently land somewhere else. It's a landing hazard that should be covered in briefing. Don't land in those trees, that pond, or that fence. I still feel that if it's that much of an issue, the DZ needs more property.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[squarecanopy 0]

You don't have the right to encroach on other peoples property even if it is only occasionally and not intentional.

As a land owner I can see both sides of the story. It really comes down to how you handle the problem. I have allowed perfect strangers use of my place because they were civil and respectfully asked permission. I have also run off people because they came on our land and informed me that they would do whatever they wanted even though it is private property. That crap does not fly around here.

Mature communication with even the meanest landowners will usually work. NOT ALWAYS. Just usually.

Just burning a hole in the sky.....

[auburnguy 0]

This comes from the Cedar town chat board


"This whole mess was started by Glenn Campbell and rolled on over to Ronnie Campbell.
ronnie used to mow the hay off the property of The Farm, for 11 years, Greg never charged him a dime, in other words he gave him the hay to keep the property clean, when Greg told Ronnie he was to stop cutting the hay, problems started.
Small at first and got bigger.
I live 500 yards from the runway, my neighbor Ricky Baxter is even closer, we have no problems with them.

There is a lot to this story that needs to be told, not enough room or time here."

"If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way."
- Homer Simpson

[azakeus 0]

Yes it should be covered in the training brief but despite people telling students not to land somewhere they will somehow still wind up in the trees or the pond......or the field with crops freshly sprayed with pestacides, not the nicest place to land.

"If your chute malfunctions, you've got the rest of your life to fix it"