riggerpaul 1 #76 December 4, 2009 Quote Redbull would disagree and look at their mortality rate recently. Redbull can organize their competitions any way they please. Their goals are not usually the same as the goals of national clubs and other organizing bodies. For instance, here's what the USPA says about their purpose, Quote The purpose of USPA is three-fold: to promote safe skydiving through training, licensing, and instructor qualification programs; to ensure skydiving’s rightful place on airports and in the airspace system, and to promote competition and record-setting programs. Competition is third on the list with safety being at the lead. I think it is in the best interest of the sport to come up with a manner of competing that does not necessarily put one in the corner where the most serious injuries and death lurk. I am all for celebrating the accomplishments of the people who work hard to be the best in the sport. I'd just rather not have to celebrate them posthumously if that can be avoided. Redbull or NASCAR or other commercial organizations can do what they like. I have no problem with that. But organizations where the stated purposes begin with safety should be able to arrange it so that competitions do not necessarily multiply the risks already inherent in the activity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #77 December 4, 2009 QuoteIf you start your turn a little low, you can dig it out. If you start it much lower, you're dead. Swooping gives you _some_ additional control, but not a lot. Or just abort the turn early once realized as hopefully you've made sure you have a clear bailout area.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #78 December 4, 2009 They didn't ban racing but they sure as hell changed a lot of rules quick ! smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SimonBones 1 #79 December 4, 2009 Quote Quoting BASE jumping as proof of your point of view just suggests that you have not realized the variability is still there in BASE jumping too. Just do enough BASE jumps and you will eventually see it. Trust me, I've done enough to see it. PC hesitations on a low freefall suck balls. I never said the shit was perfect! 108 way head down world record!!! http://www.simonbones.com Hit me up on Facebook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtnesbitt 0 #80 December 4, 2009 Yeah, of course I understand that what you describe is a problem, but I know RedBull has had a horrible death problem amongst their athletes. In fact I doubt more than 10-20% of them ever survives a sponsorship. But at least some redbull athletes was inspiring and talented unlike the go-fast athlethes. If redbull isnt sponsoring crazy people over several years, then how are we supposed to get cool youtube videos. This is a big fucking problem we got on our hands here and I dont see how big-caffein is coming to save us. Why dont we start appealing to big-tobacco, they got money for cool but useless deaths. And a lot of us smoke some kind of substance anyway. Who knows, smoking may not be that bad compared to engergy drinks anyway. Its time we start thinking about the reputation of the sport. Personally I think this whole thing of picking up trash and helping old ladies is a bunch of crap. So is the wingsuitcompetitions and so is the whole smiling to the camera that a lot of people do these days. We need to be portrayed like total badasses. If your friend die, we must be on page ONE in the newspaper. They might ask, WHAT happened? At this point in time you must stay focused and make a bunch of good jokes, ---I think he must have lost his head----.....or ----My god this happened last year to a guy here, we think its some kind of pandemic thats spreads through our parachutes. You probably think we should have some kind of investigative organ that helped us seeing the dangers of hitting ground hard. I got news for you. IT DOESNT MATTER CAUSE HE IS DEAD. I dont think a report is going to change peoples perception of the danger level of a planet coming at you in 100mph. If we want to stop the bloodshed all we need to do is think for ourselves and be smart. Safety seminars, online posts, and talks in group will only make it worse since it devalues individual thinking. Made with dorkzonehero.net forum post generator OK, that sounded silly, but it was a lot lighter than some of the comments i was thinking myself, and I think these comments do apply to this situation. Skydiving = Dangerous More Regulation = BAD People engaging in these behaviors know its risky but they do it anyway. Furthermore they train a lot to do it better! They know it's dangerous and accept the risks. Smoking WILL kill you but smokers don't care, and there are a lot of other things in life that can too. It's personal freedom and choice. If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen! What we do is dangerous but we do it of our own free will and don't need big brother or some whuffo bureaucrat telling us what we can and cant do with our lives. Words like safe and dangerous are relative terms anyway. BASE jumping isn't safe when compared to skydiving. Skydicing isnt safe when compared to rock climbing. Rock climbing isnt safe when compared to bowling. Bowling isnt safe when compared to playing video games. Playing video games isnt safe when compared to sitting on the couch doing nothing....and we all know sitting on the couch doing nothing isn't safe at all because now we are trying to regulate obesity in America! With that, I will leave you with one more fitting thought from the DZH: I know some people who might agree with you, but most people are like me. We like the wild west. I may have been raised as a spoiled middle class white boy, but I am a gotdamn cowboy sir. I litter on exit points, I ride my freefall without helmet, I piss in the snow, and if I dont like you I dickstamp (-) your cheese sandwich. This town aint big enough for the both of us. The highest puller has to leave and Im not pulling until youre gone. Think about it "If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #81 December 4, 2009 >Or just abort the turn early once realized as hopefully you've >made sure you have a clear bailout area. Agreed. Sounds easy. Nevertheless a lot of people get killed because they don't do that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy_Copland 0 #82 December 4, 2009 QuoteI know some people who might agree with you, but most people are like me. We like the wild west. I may have been raised as a spoiled middle class white boy, but I am a gotdamn cowboy sir. I litter on exit points, I ride my freefall without helmet, I piss in the snow, and if I dont like you I dickstamp (-) your cheese sandwich. This town aint big enough for the both of us. The highest puller has to leave and Im not pulling until youre gone. Best work from DZH yet. Love it.1338 People aint made of nothin' but water and shit. Until morale improves, the beatings will continue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #83 December 4, 2009 I think ALOT of people will quit skydiving if high speed approach were banned.. and personally i think that old people who likes to toggle whip at the end scares the shit out of me...Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 1 #84 December 4, 2009 QuoteQuoteIs it possible to reorganize our competitions so that we minimize the tendency to throw all caution to the wind? I am sorry Paul but you just do not understand the nature of the beast called "competition". Besides seasoned swoop competitors know when they have messed up and know taking a donut is better than the alternative. The problem lies in people new to competition may not have necessarily figured this out yet. I know one of my close calls in competitive swooping occurred when I tried to salvage a bad approach at the gates. Not only did I put my safety on the line, but I put the safety of a volunteer judge also on the line. Fortunately I pulled my head out of my ass and learned from this error and never repeated it. But unless you understand the "competitive" nature, you will never understand why some people do what they do. There is a classic line from the 1960s Grand Prix racing movie where one of the principle drivers tells someone else "After an accident when other drivers are lifting off of the accelerator, I am applying full gas". This is not the first time someone has been hurt/killed in a swoop competition and it won't be the last time either. But the vast majority of the competitive swoopers are NOT killing themselves. So I don't understand this desire by some to rush out and call for swooping to be banned (not saying this is what paul is calling for). Please people, shoot me before you force me to live in your over controlled over protected world. Last time I checked, none of us comes out of here alive. Did the racing world ban racing when Aryton Senna was killed? Did the racing world ban racing when Dale Earnhardt was killed? The only problem with your anology is how many people have died since those two where killed and how many have died under perfectly functioning canopies year after year? It isn't the same. I am not calling for a ban on swooping so don't pull me into that I was just pointing out the anologies don't work and it doesn't work for moto-x either. If Moto-X Riders start dying at the rate swoopers are I can guarantee you it will be stopped immeditly. MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #85 December 4, 2009 How many swoopers have died in competition? Prior to this Russian fellow the last one was Marianne and she did not die as the result of a swoop. She died because of a double mal which could be traced to using a highly loaded main and a highly loaded reserve coupled with wearing a weight belt that could not be released. In fact correct me if I am wrong, but I believe only three people have ever died while in a swoop competition and this Russian fellow is the first one to die while actually swooping through the entry gates (the other two had problems before they could even set up their swoop). Yes we know about the broken record called education ... learning to swoop starts with education and then more education is needed when learning to run gates. But there comes a point in time where education is replaced with experience and judgment. If someone wants to propose possible (reasonable) rule changes then post your suggestions and let those who have competed in swooping competitions tell you whether they think your ideas are viable or not. While it sounds like the deceased Russian skydiver was an ultra-experienced skydiver, it also sounds like he did not have that much high level swoop competition experience and if there was an error somewhere maybe it's in thinking that competitive swooping is ready for world championship events. Competitive swoopers need to be honest with themselves. As much as competing on the world stage sounds cool, you have to ask yourself do you have the minimum skills and experience competing at club and regional levels before you put yourself on the world stage where the pressure to perform is higher. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
78RATS 0 #86 December 4, 2009 Quote Tightly controlled safety can suck my dick i found a new sig line! Rat for Life - Fly till I die When them stupid ass bitches ask why Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #87 December 4, 2009 Quote Quote I don't remember suggesting we should ban swooping. Can't seem to find anywhere in the thread that I say so either. Hmmm... You must know something I don't about what I say and don't say. But we should bring back low pull contests! The challenge has been laid down! Im in Highest puller buys the beer. If there are 3 of us, I can at least take middle slot and still get free beer.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 126 #88 December 4, 2009 QuoteWill we wise-up and eliminate this activity as "too dangerous", just as we did low-pull contests? get yer hands off my toggles..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy_Copland 0 #89 December 4, 2009 I like you Hookitt, thats the typings of a thinking man. A thinking man who not only likes to pull low, but live and still get the beer with none of the shame. Striving for mediocrity is not only safe, but its still respectable.1338 People aint made of nothin' but water and shit. Until morale improves, the beatings will continue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raymod2 1 #90 December 4, 2009 QuoteId rather have no one know me and jump all my life. Your comment sounds similar to one from "the lesson of the moth": i would rather have half the happiness and twice the longevity Let moths be moths is what I say. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #91 December 4, 2009 Following the logic of Booth's Law, swoopers make skydiving safer for those of us who don't swoop. I'm all in favor.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #92 December 4, 2009 QuoteI don't think statistics that are almost 12 years old can be considered valid for todays world of skydiving. Almost 12 years! That's nearly more than an eternity.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #93 December 4, 2009 QuoteQuoteIs it possible to reorganize our competitions so that we minimize the tendency to throw all caution to the wind? I am sorry Paul but you just do not understand the nature of the beast called "competition". Besides seasoned swoop competitors know when they have messed up and know taking a donut is better than the alternative. The problem lies in people new to competition may not have necessarily figured this out yet. I know one of my close calls in competitive swooping occurred when I tried to salvage a bad approach at the gates. Not only did I put my safety on the line, but I put the safety of a volunteer judge also on the line. Fortunately I pulled my head out of my ass and learned from this error and never repeated it. But unless you understand the "competitive" nature, you will never understand why some people do what they do. There is a classic line from the 1960s Grand Prix racing movie where one of the principle drivers tells someone else "After an accident when other drivers are lifting off of the accelerator, I am applying full gas". This is not the first time someone has been hurt/killed in a swoop competition and it won't be the last time either. But the vast majority of the competitive swoopers are NOT killing themselves. So I don't understand this desire by some to rush out and call for swooping to be banned (not saying this is what paul is calling for). Please people, shoot me before you force me to live in your over controlled over protected world. Last time I checked, none of us comes out of here alive. Did the racing world ban racing when Aryton Senna was killed? Did the racing world ban racing when Dale Earnhardt was killed? I understand competition well enough. Some have suggested banning. I am not doing that. But I want us to take a good look at how we might make it safer than it is. When auto racing has its tragedies, they step back a moment and consider if they can make the car protect the driver a little bit better. Full harness systems, roll cages, better head protection, explosion resistant fuel storage, etc, are all responses to tragedy. Not every tragedy results in an improvement to safety, but overall, over time, their sport has gotten safer. This is because they don't just throw up their hands and say there's no was to preserve competition if we make it safer. We still have spectacular accidents, and a lot of the time, people walk away from them. Sometimes, despite all efforts, someone dies. It makes them all unhappy, and it keeps them thinking about how to improve safety without eliminating the competitive spirit of the thing. Our response, so far, has been to do NOTHING. I find that at the least sad, and at the other extreme, possibly negligent. Changing the rules a little does not have to completely take the edge off the competition, not if we think hard about the changes that might be made. Maybe we allow X number of aborts in the novice competition, a different number of aborts that include some sort of penalty in the intermediate, and either no aborts or bigger penalties in the open class. Unlike racing, where the cars can arguably be made safer, we cannot really make the canopies protect the pilots. The best we can do is to take some of the pressure to perform in the face of an unrecoverable error. I also said that these responses can be different in different venues. RedBull can organize their competition any way they like. But, in the case of national clubs and such, whose primary goals include promoting safety, well, they should be able to make some rules that contribute to the overall safety of the competition. Maybe it is time to separate "professional" competitions from "amateur" competitions. Have whatever rules you like in "professional" events. But in the "amateur" events, there is no reason not to err a bit on the side of having people remain alive. I don't say mine is the only possible approach. I have just put out a few possibilities. I am sure there are lots of other things that might help, and maybe you would find then less onerous. But, using your example of the auto racing world, we should not just say "oh well, that's competition". We should be responding to the event with our best efforts to make it less deadly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #94 December 4, 2009 QuotePC hesitations on a low freefall suck balls. PC hesitations on any freefall suck. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #95 December 4, 2009 Just a few comments on the first 2 pages of this dribble. hallux Quoteinstead of being enlightened individuals who view the rights of others as sacred neccessities in order to have quality of life. What about the “rights” of the people who have been killed by enlightened swoopers? Tolgak QuoteA swoop is a controlled maneuver. A low pull isn't. You cannot guarantee with any precision the altitude and time it will take for a canopy to open. The thousands of successful swoops that happen every weekend in this country show that swooping is a repeatable maneuver. Your ignorance of how your gear works is showing. And there was a time in this sport where thousands of low pull happened every weekend. Andy_Copland QuoteTightly controlled safety can suck my dick, in fact if i see one more fat old person skydiving i may just quit. I signed up for redbull and women, people with fucked up haircuts and even more fucked up atitudes. Skydivers should be cool and on the edge. And I guess you think you are cool and on the edge? captain1976 QuoteI have been in this sport for quite a few years and these stories for the most part were just that, "stories". Tell that to Terry Ward, Doyle Talbot and some the other So. Cal. Jumpers from the era. jtnesbitt QuoteWe like the wild west. Like most posting here you didn’t into jumping until after it became a “recreation” It used to be a sport. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jazzthieve 0 #96 December 4, 2009 QuoteQuoteI don't think statistics that are almost 12 years old can be considered valid for todays world of skydiving. Almost 12 years! That's nearly more than an eternity. Last time I checked, in skydiving, alot can change in such a timeframe. As an example, swooping as we know it today, did not exist 12 years ago. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #97 December 4, 2009 Quote Quote Quote I don't think statistics that are almost 12 years old can be considered valid for todays world of skydiving. Almost 12 years! That's nearly more than an eternity. Last time I checked, in skydiving, alot can change in such a timeframe. As an example, swooping as we know it today, did not exist 12 years ago. I'm quoting this before you change your mind... What part of swooping didn't exist 12 years ago? Reminder: that was 97.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snowflake 0 #98 December 4, 2009 QuoteQuote Tightly controlled safety can suck my dick i found a new sig line! You sir are a shit stirrer! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy_Copland 0 #99 December 4, 2009 QuoteAnd I guess you think you are cool and on the edge? Alright Moses, i've had just about enough of your old fuddy duddy attitude. Why can't you be like Twardo? He makes me laugh and is old school cool. Albeit i suspect hes a jew. Not only can he land his canopy on a penny but he has his own variation on a swoop and chug. The swoop and coin pocket i think they call it. We have 2 kinds of skydivers, those who when first jumping out a plane were pushing their personal limits so once they get their A they dont really progress so fast. Just falling is enough for them. Then the GoFast drinkers, the pot smokers and ones who listen to music far too loud; who cake walk AFF (me) and get into cool and edgy shit (me again) and progress in leaps and bounces. I suspect that back when it was a "sport" that you were in the first group i described. Now you see us young rock stars coming up you think your voice is the most relevent? Humbug i say, humbug. Listen to your elders? Fuck that, listen to anyone with common sense and that person can be a 200 jump wonder (like me again! ME ME ME) or a 200 year old round jumper. Was it you that made that T-shirt i hate so much? "Most sports take one ball, mine takes both!" Reeks of cheese, like this thread. Edit: SO YES I BLOODY WELL DO THINK THAT. AND THE WHUFFOS ARE IMPRESSED WHICH IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART. Infact im doing way more for this sport than anyone, USPA medal for me i say for public relations.1338 People aint made of nothin' but water and shit. Until morale improves, the beatings will continue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SimonBones 1 #100 December 4, 2009 Quote Last time I checked, in skydiving, alot can change in such a timeframe. As an example, swooping as we know it today, did not exist 12 years ago. Dear old timers of the sport (That's right, I said old timers Much respect though), I apologize on behalf of what appears to be the 95% of my generations of jumpers who have their heads way up their asses. We're not all like this, I swear! Some of us do recognize that we have less than 7 full years in the sport and aren't truly qualified to make authoritative commentary on trends in the sport over a decade ago. Please don't hold judgment against all of us! Not all of us are this bad Sincerely, Simon Bones108 way head down world record!!! http://www.simonbones.com Hit me up on Facebook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
