Psychology of Risk Scuba/Skydive

[DiverMike 5]

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being a skydiver immerses you in what I have come to call a "culture of safety."

+1

I have been a SCUBA instructor for 20 years and an active Skydiver for about 1 year. I am amazed at the level of safety consiousness that exists in skydiving as opposed to the 'it can't happen to me' attitude in SCUBA diving.

I enjoy the feeling I get being around people who take an active interest in my safety and well being.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[DanG 1]

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I was very surprised that many more deaths and serious injury from cheering.

Really? I'm not saying you're lying, I just find that very hard to believe. I don't think I've ever heard of a death from cheering, but someone I know just went in yesterday.

Can you elaborate?

- Dan G

[Beatnik 2]

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Really? I'm not saying you're lying, I just find that very hard to believe. I don't think I've ever heard of a death from cheering, but someone I know just went in yesterday.

Can you elaborate?

Do a google search there are tons of them. I was surprised as well. It seems like a lot of them result from injuries from kicks or falls.

[Inspired 0]

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I was very surprised that many more deaths and serious injury from cheering.

Not even close. http://www.unc.edu/depts/nccsi/AllSport.htm

[dayle 0]

I have been licensed in both sports for over 10 years - however I do hvae much more experience skydiving then diving.
I have always maintained the Scuba is far more dangerous then skydiving.

In general - the only time that you get hurt skydiving is when you impact the ground - with or without a parachute. I can always breath while jumping.
With diving there are far more hazzards - the most obvious is breathing, but there is decompression sickness (bends) air embolisms, getting snagged in a wreck etc etc.
The last and biggest point IMHO is wildlife. In the ocean there are so many types of animals that can cause you harm and you don't have that exposure in skydiving.
As I've said to some of my scuba buddies - there is nothing in the air that is going to eat me.

Dayle

[airtwardo 6]

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As I've said to some of my scuba buddies - there is nothing in the air that is going to eat me.

Guessin' yer not a hot skychick?!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[lost_n_confuzd 0]

Good points, overall diving is more dangerous than skydiving, but skydiving is more inherently dangerous than SCUBA. Similar to skydiving, most SCUBA deaths are caused by human error. When something goes wrong you often have a buddy that can save you, unlike skydiving.

If divers would take safety as serious as most skydivers do, then diving would be the less dangerous activity and have far fewer fatalities in comparison to skydiving.

[JohnDeere 0]

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In the ocean there are so many types of animals that can cause you harm and you don't have that exposure in skydiving.

You havent jumped with some of the people I have

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[Rstanley0312 0]

It just goes to show how ingrained the fear of falling is, and overcoming it is a pretty big deal.

We even have falling dreams or nightmares that make us all jump.

My buddy did ask me once.... "so as a skydiver, when you have the falling dream that everyone has do you just enjoy it?"

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[JohnMitchell 14]

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"so as a skydiver, when you have the falling dream that everyone has do you just enjoy it?"

Yep, it's just a big tease.


The thing to remember? In skydiving, there is no shallow end of the pool.

[mdrejhon 8]

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A skydive takes a minute. A scuba dive takes a whole lot longer. The first thing you have to do when defining something like risk is to define "opportunity" in a way that makes sense, and that allows an honest comparison.

Wendy P.

I think it's still apples to apples in a way, because a skydiving trip can take as long as a scuba trip. I observe that the duration of skydive trips (weekend trips, etc) of a regular skydiver is very similiar to the duration of a regular scuba diver. Hard core people can take more than a week, while weekenders can just spend a few hours a day doing either.

Sure, the daytime risk graph chart (RISK on Y axis, TIME in X axis) is more bumpy and peaky on a minute-to-minute basis for skydiving than for scuba. But average out the risk on a daytime basis, it's really surprisingly similiar.

[skymama1 0]

Interesting topic, I am fascinated by the psychology behind risk and choices and such.

Personally, I have always been a "try anything once" kinda gal though now I have family to consider so I certainly try not to do things that are too stupid (thankfully(?), I got many such things checked off the list in my younger/stupider days lol)

Honestly I didn't ever see skydiving as that insane/crazy of a risk, but I think most people surely do.. I mean, obviously it involves risk, not denying that, but I always sorta associated it with things like SCUBA diving, ski/snowboard, waterskiing, etc. (I have not done SCUBA, but have done skiing and snowboarding and waterskiing)- all as "extreme sports" though that seems a silly term to me idk..

I guess honestly reading here has made me feel both even safer about skydiving, and also much more aware of the risks.. when you are aware of things that could happen, and there are hundreds of them, you wonder- how will I know what to do in each particular situation? will i recognize it? will i do the right thing? etc. But then you know that (well, at least hope that) ground school and your instructors teach those things and one can plan to do more safety drills, suspended harness training, etc. to feel as safe as possible in one's reactions and not jump if overtired, hung over, intuition says not to, whatever..

So it is complicated, but for me, skydiving always seemed reasonably do-able and safe if done either tandem or solo w/ training, and learning more and pursuing it has made me feel both better and worse if that makes any sense- I almost wish I didn't know what a spinning mal was, or loss of altitude awareness, or the deaths caused by someone else swooping into me with no fault of my own, or the bajillion other things that *could* go wrong, but you have to know certain things to be safe, fear can be healthy if it motivates one to learn and practice appropriate safety measures (NOT if it prevents one from living life though)..

My point is only that reading incident reports and the safety forum is both good and bad- it makes you aware and helps you be safer, but also makes you wonder/fear things more? I am unsure if the info on this site would make the average person who is not considering ever jumping more or less concerned, but I think that's the thing-- one who perceives it as ridiculously unsafe is not likely to actually research the risk level and safety precautions, why would they? I do wonder, I don't have any idea, whether SCUBA divers research such things and are as aware, it sounds like perhaps they are not from some posts? I think in any potentially risky sport one should be well informed, but I also wonder if there is such a thing as too informed (especially for those of us who overthink things lol)

But to me, reading statistics, knowing the stringent guidelines and safety regs in this sport, and seeing those with so many jumps and experience is encouraging, as is knowing that over time, gear has gotten better, we have learned from past mistakes, etc. It feels like it is safer now than ever before.

I guess I am just not one who as ever had the instinctive reaction that skydiving is insanely risky, though I had to research more to decide how I felt for sure.. I can surely see where most people are coming from though, especially comparing the two, which makes an interesting point.

And since risk is relative, one compares things like riding on a motorcycle or driving a car, things I would never think twice about, of course w/ helmet/seatbelt/whatever- most people don't understand. I have told a few close family/friends that I am going for the first time next week and they all seem pretty simultaneously amused and horrified (cause they know I do crazy shit on occasion-- but when I first told my dad I wanted to go awhile back, he laughed at me, so I think a few months later/recently, when I told him I had my tandem booked, he was kinda surprised and messed with me a bit.. but also told me I better double check my will, so yeah, it is absolutely seen as a really risky thing to do by "Joe Public")

I agree that it is mostly the fact that it seems scary and out of any "normal" perspective or day to day frame of reference that people are shocked and scared by it.. I generally try to explain the statistics to them, the safety techniques involved (being responsible for yourself/the licensing system, equipment maintenance, things like an AAD, reserve, etc. and then compare the stats of the sport as it exists today with the stats for other less "scary-sounding" sports and daily activities like operating motor vehicles to make that point). I think this gives them some sense of it logically- kicks in the thinking/reasoning part of the brain to help override the primal intuitive "OMG FALL-DIE-SCARY" thing..

Though I did not know the numbers for SCUBA (thanks for sharing) it makes sense from what I know that it would be similar or riskier..

I agree with the womb thing-- and most people enjoy swimming and/or perceive being in the water (hot bath/jacuzzi/etc.) as relaxing and primal.

Myself, while I like swimming and kayaking and all, and being in water, I would actually be much more frightened to dive since it, the way I envision it, would feel claustrophobic. I guess I have much more fear of being trapped underwater w/o air, the further I get away from the surface/open air, than of being in an the open sky.

I also think people envision the jump as this huge thing, and there's no turning back (which is true)- I liken it (the first part, actually jumping out) to learning to wear contacts (x a factor of 1,000 or so, lol) in that you are overcoming a basic safety instinct- your brain is telling you, don't you dare stick your f'ing finger in your eyeball, and you have to do it anyways.. the first time (for those who have never done contact lenses) takes awhile to get used to and feels odd and uncomfortable, but after awhile you don't think twice about it.. so it seems w/ skydiving eh?

For those never done it/ never plan on doing it, I imagine the first image that pops into their head is actually leaving the plane- it's pretty visceral, to think (speaking as someone who hasn't done my first jump yet) of being in an airplane that high, and actually willingly projecting oneself out even though your whole brain/body are screaming not to.. it's intense I am sure, since just thinking about it is intense.

Also I think we really like to feel in control and skydiving, to someone who does not know much about it, seems like total lack of control. There is surely that aspect to it in my opinion thus far, though it also seems there is much more control involved than an unread or inexperienced individual might assume, I guess I shall find out to what extent one feels in control-- I'd actually be interested in hearing from experienced skydivers how "in control" they feel during a jump and whether this changed over time or was a factor?

Whereas SCUBA is a gradual progression, like swimming, only "swimming" downward, deeper and deeper, with the controlled speed of one's body through the water, and your own body movements in control of your descent, jumping is (largely) gravity. Now, of course you can wear a wingsuit as you gain experience, you can use body position in freefall and canopy control when under canopy and all that, so it's not really 100% uncontrolled "falling" at all- BUT I think when someone first thinks of it, that is the mental association they get, and why they would see SCUBA very differently.

And like I said, skydiving is pretty darn permanent- you jump, you're in for good.. you do what you must to land safely. SCUBA, you could turn and come up at any point or change your position or speed.. again, I know this can also apply to skydiving, but people don't understand that, and it isn't on the same level- floating versus falling, which sounds safer to you? That seems part of the psychology to me.. And I think that as a PP stated, people naively assume that if something goes wrong in SCUBA you can just come on up- of course, for deep sea dives you can't really do that at all in time, and of course if something happens quickly you may well not have time or awareness to do so at all- I don't know too much, but it is clearly a fallacy. But I can see why someone would perceive it as such.

Tandem 4/4. FJC and AFF-2 completed 4/9. Rescheduled AFF-3 and 4 due to winds for this next weekend.

"Be the change you wish to see in the world..."

[Guru312 0]

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Can you elaborate?

I sure as hell hope I can. I have six computers on my network and I can't find where I put the info from which I got my information.

I'm still looking; the parachuting and SCUBA world is waiting.

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

[base698 1]

You can run the numbers a lot of different ways and conclude for 1 dive per 1 skydive is more dangerous than the other, but I don't know any scuba divers that know dead divers.

What seems fairly obvious to me is that skydiving per active participant is much more dangerous than this thread would lead you to believe. I've been skydiving for over 11 years now. I quit counting people I've seen/known to die skydiving when that number hit 26.

[novacaine 0]

>> but I don't know any scuba divers that know dead divers.


I can give you the name of 7 buddies that I no longer Scuba dive with.

[mdrejhon 8]

Do you hang out a lot with BASE jumpers, or at major boogies, or at major dropzones?

I am For me, I'm in the sport 5 years and I know only one person personally who has passed away skydiving. Then again, I don't tend to go to swooper events, or WFFC/Skyfest sized events -- not at this time yet (except JFTC, which at almost 10K skydives total over two weekends, easily could have raised odds).

Scuba diving of the more extreme kind (danger), are usually not in large groups like in major boogies, I find skydivers know more skydivers than scuba divers know scuba divers. There's more dive sites than dropzones. It spreads out, so less likely to know dead scuba divers, me thinks.

[zipplewrath 1]

Most folks I knew that did both, would admit that SCUBA was more dangerous that skydiving. It's a strange calculation, but in the end, you know pretty quickly you're in trouble in skydiving and can start taking proper actions. In SCUBA, you can be getting into more and more trouble and not necessarily know it until it may be too late.

[Squeak 17]

I SCUBA dived for more than 20 years before jumping, I was an instructor for 15, and
When people are doing the RIGHT thing in either sport I would think the SCUBA is MUCH safer the skydiving.

The worst event i have had to deal with in more than 20 years active SCUBA is a bent diver,

In 7 years jumping i've seen or know 5 people who died and one who is never going to be the same again from brain damage.

when you do things the right way in either sport skydiving to me is more dangerous.

When you do things the wrong way, crossing the street is dangerous.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[cocheese 0]

Being trapped under ice on a free dive (rope slipped off without me knowing it) is about as scary as pulling at 1000 feet and having the 950ft snivel blues.

[Squeak 17]

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Being trapped under ice on a free dive (rope slipped off without me knowing it) is about as scary as pulling at 1000 feet and having the 950ft snivel blues.

What sort of phycho nutjob freedives in ICE


There is not a westsuit or dry suit warm enough for me to do that

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[cocheese 0]

It was just going to be a quickie to retrieve all the valuables we dropped down the ice shanty hole over the winter. Only mask i had was a presciption lens one that was my dad's.

Moral to the story: get used to the cold water slowly first. Oh and tie the rope onto the body better.
My friend retrieved all the stuff the next day.

[base698 1]

I do also BASE jump and I have been at larger drop zones (I've seen 4 that I immediately can recall) people go in that I didn't know. I do have a few in my count that are BASE jumpers but the skydivers far outweigh the BASE jumpers (more likely due to me knowing far more skydivers than base jumpers).

[dreaming13000 1]

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As I've said to some of my scuba buddies - there is nothing in the air that is going to eat me.

Dayle

+1

Then there is surfing, I tried and tried and tried to get into it...I loved it but I would have a near panic attack almost every time I got out past the breakers, total mental freakout of sharks and other nasty meat eaters This mental surge made the sport too dangerous in my mind.

Throwing in some other activities, lets look at the rodeo you have bullriding horseback riding, in general these can be dangerous mostly because you are dealing with another (nonhuman)
mind/anxiety/attitude/training etc. Or fishing/camping in the yukon? yikes, no thanks on meeting a grizzly.

Skydiving for me= the hazards for the most part are pretty cut and dried (though not always) no suprising critters coming at you, only the very familiar gravity animal.

"A man only gets in life what he is believing for, nothing more and nothing less" Kenneth Hagen

[steve1 5]

Statistics can be twisted in a variety of ways to prove different points.

Maybe if I knew more about scuba diving my words might have more impact.

I know almost as many scuba divers as I do skydivers. I have had five friends die skydiving. I know noone personally who has died scuba diving.

My daughter is an advanced scuba diver. She had dove over a 100 ft. in Hawaii. I'd worry about her more if she was a skydiver. I just feel it is more dangerous.

How many people do you know who have had broken backs, legs, or other serious injuries from landing. I know a lot. Yet I don't know anyone who has been hurt scuba diving.

My best friend and I started skydiving together in the early 70's. He quit after his second jump. It scared the hell out of him. He later became a scuba diving instructor. It was more to his liking. He has many tales of near death stuff, but he always was kind of windy. He even takes his young kids out scuba diving.

Two friends have had trouble diving under the ice. One couldn't find the hole to get out. He started swimming in bigger and bigger circles while kicking up mud off the bottom, so he could tell where he was at. But I wonder too, if this was exaggerated to make a better story.

Maybe I'm misinformed, but skydiving just seems more dangerous to me than scuba diving...

[roostnureye 2]

so mabye its just me but im pretty sure skydiving is allot more dangerous than scuba.

i have no problem donning scuba gear with a very minnimum amount of training. (tank,reg,computer,check) and ill scuba all day long. i realize these are not the dangerous deep or cave dives, but its still scuba.

then on the other hand ill bet you cant find someone willing to don a rig with minnimal training,
(pilot chute, cutaway and reserve handles) and do a hop n pop without getting seriously hurt or killed.

just an opinion, everyone is welcome to their own. but with no experience, id scuba and live.

the easiest solo skydive is much more training intensive than the easiest scuba dive, as well as much more dangerous. show me 1 person to jump without training and not get hurt, ill show you 100 scuba divers that dived without training and didnt get hurt.

JMHO

Flock University FWC / ZFlock
B.A.S.E. 1580
Aussie BASE 121