How should i feel after giving someone a cutaway?

[amstalder 0]

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...Then someone reminded me that you pack the chute, not the opening.

Most packers feel that they can produce different opening characteristics by changing certain aspects of the pack job. If that's true, doesn't that make the above quote a crock of shit ? It sounds to me like another version of, "Shit happens".

That quote is just a cheap excuse for packers to avoid responsibility for sloppy work.

Kevin K.

But not all packers do sloppy work...

[Andy9o8 0]

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After I packed someone a slammer, I was feeling really bad. Then someone reminded me that you pack the chute, not the opening. It makes sense to me. I still feel bad that I did it, but things like this happen. At least it didn't turn into an injury or a fatality because of the pack job. That's why we have emergency procedures.

Slammers are sometimes caused by the pack job; for example, maybe the slider wasn't kept all the way against the stops. But sometimes there are other causes of slammers than the pack job.

For example, according to Bill Booth, slammers sometimes result from riser covers coming undone too early in the deployment sequence, allowing slack in the lines, causing the canopy to pull away from the slider prior to inflation, and/or uneven opening of the riser covers, putting greater tension on one set of risers than the other, causing uneven inflation of the canopy. Here it is in Bill's own words:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSVRSIicQDk

[NVizABull 0]

tension knots also come from not untwisting the steering lines from time to time....i've seen some people be packing and you can see the twists easily. remind them to remove the twists and let them know it can cause a tension knot that can be a cutaway and reserve ride.

[AggieDave 6]

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That was the cause of my only chopped pack job. I felt kinda bad about it until I learned that it's usually lines needing replacement that cause tension knots - ie a gear maintenance issue, not a pack job or body position issue.

Sure, but it is much worst with a control line that has twists in it. It causes the cascades to turn and flatten, which will try to grab the C/D cascades during opening. So having a packer that doesn't care enough to check for twists can also be a problem!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Halfpastniner 0]

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tension knots also come from not untwisting the steering lines from time to time....i've seen some people be packing and you can see the twists easily. remind them to remove the twists and let them know it can cause a tension knot that can be a cutaway and reserve ride.

Correct. So before you give it to your packer, you should untwist them. Packers are paid to pack your rig, not maintain your gear. You want them to flex your 3 rings and clean your cables too?

BASE 1384

[darthur2000 0]

Feeling bad just means you have a conscience (and there's nothing wrong with that).

Paying for lost gear??? Nope, I'd quit packing if I was expected to pay for any lost or damaged gear from a cut away on one of my pack jobs. Here's the economics:

pack job = $6

cost of replacement:
main (approx $2,000)
risers (approx. $150)
D-bag and PC (approx. $175)
freebag and reserve PC (approx $250)
rigger cost to rebuild and repack (approx. $75)
total replacement cost = $2650

That means it would take about 442 pack jobs to pay for the gear (and if the going rate at your DZ is $5 per pack job then it would be 530 pack jobs to cover the cost). So one cut away means the packer makes basically nothing for a month or more. If people start expecting the packers to pay for gear lost on a cut away there won't be anyone willing to pack (or packers would have to start charging a lot more for pack jobs to cover the costs, I wonder how many jumpers are willing to pay $25+ for a pack job?).

[AggieDave 6]

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So before you give it to your packer, you should untwist them. Packers are paid to pack your rig, not maintain your gear.

On a tandem system, I fully expect them to do those "extra" things.

On my sport rig, I don't expect it; however, if I have two packers who pack well, one will check things like brake line twists and general wear and the other won't, guess which one gets my business, my money and my tips?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Halfpastniner 0]

Tandems are different animals. Many times the Instructor is too busy to do the little things (although i appreciate it when they do). I understand that. I was referring to funjumpers.

BASE 1384

[TEB6363 0]

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That was the cause of my only chopped pack job. I felt kinda bad about it until I learned that it's usually lines needing replacement that cause tension knots - ie a gear maintenance issue, not a pack job or body position issue. I know there were at least 700 jumps on that line set... Any idea how many jumps were on the one you packed?

That's funny Lisa.. Is my first cutaway/Tandem mal the only one you had packed - I feel kinda honored

Once the plane takes off, you're gonna have to land - Might as well jump out!!

[skybytch 259]

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Sure, but it is much worst with a control line that has twists in it. It causes the cascades to turn and flatten, which will try to grab the C/D cascades during opening. So having a packer that doesn't care enough to check for twists can also be a problem!

Again, a gear maintenance issue, not an issue with the pack job itself.

[skybytch 259]

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That's funny Lisa.. Is my first cutaway/Tandem mal the only one you had packed - I feel kinda honored

Yup, that's my one black mark. We both owed beer (I don't think I ever paid mine )!

[TEB6363 0]

You know, I don't know if I bought the case of beer.. I think just a 12-pack.

But I DID buy Josh his bottle of Maker's Mark

Gotta keep the Rigger JuJu good!!

Once the plane takes off, you're gonna have to land - Might as well jump out!!

[swoopfly 5]

i put it like this...... I WILL guarantee all my pack jobs 100% when and only when the manufacturer of that canopy guarantee their work 100%!!!!

in other words dont feel bad, all canopys have a label stating..you could pack a brand new parachute perfect and it still can malfunction.

[AggieDave 6]

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Sure, but it is much worst with a control line that has twists in it. It causes the cascades to turn and flatten, which will try to grab the C/D cascades during opening. So having a packer that doesn't care enough to check for twists can also be a problem!

Again, a gear maintenance issue, not an issue with the pack job itself.

I fully disagree. When I was a packer, I untwisted brake lines on sport rigs and tandems. You were talking about tandem systems specifically, in which a packer should be making those sorts of checks!

You stating that twisted control is a gear maintenance issue is like saying a step through is a gear maintenance issue and the packer shouldn't attempt to help the jumper.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AHoyThere 0]

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After I packed someone a slammer, I was feeling really bad. Then someone reminded me that you pack the chute, not the opening. It makes sense to me. I still feel bad that I did it, but things like this happen. At least it didn't turn into an injury or a fatality because of the pack job. That's why we have emergency procedures.

This was a long time ago, but here's a short vid of a slammer that someone packed for me.

http://manifestmaster.com/video/mike.wmv

Didn't need to cut away but after a post-jump inspection, we did order one new riser.

We showed the vid to the person that I had just paid to pack that rig. They felt bad and gave me that money back. But I didn't ask them to pay for the damaged riser. The tandem passenger contacted me a week later to let me know he had three broken ribs from the opening shock. And he didn't ask me to pay for that either.

[Hjeada 0]

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This was a long time ago, but here's a short vid of a slammer that someone packed for me.

http://manifestmaster.com/video/mike.wmv

Didn't need to cut away but after a post-jump inspection, we did order one new riser.

We showed the vid to the person that I had just paid to pack that rig. They felt bad and gave me that money back. But I didn't ask them to pay for the damaged riser. The tandem passenger contacted me a week later to let me know he had three broken ribs from the opening shock. And he didn't ask me to pay for that either.

KaBOOOOOM! Holy crap, now ya see you, now you DON'T! Glad you were ok as well as the tandem passenger, could have been worse...

Dudeist Skydiver #0511

[kkeenan 13]

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...stating that twisted control is a gear maintenance issue is like saying a step through is a gear maintenance issue ...

+1

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[skybytch 259]

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You stating that twisted control is a gear maintenance issue is like saying a step through is a gear maintenance issue and the packer shouldn't attempt to help the jumper.

We disagree. A packer is responsible for packing. I don't expect a packer to stow my brakes, uncollapse my slider or cock my pilot chute, I certainly don't expect them to untwist my control lines. It'd be nice if they fixed my step through but I'd certainly be adding a buck or two to their total pay for the day if they did.

Those are all things that I am capable of doing, and if I'm taking proper care of my gear that I should be doing even if I never pack for myself.

Expecting someone who is already busting ass to have those tandem rigs ready for the next load to spend an extra 5 minutes untwisting steering lines on every pack job is a bit much. Expecting them to do it on the last pack job of the day for that rig, okay.

If it's that important to a tandem instructor that the control lines be untwisted after every skydive, perhaps the tandem instructor should make sure that it's done?

[billvon 2,400]

> So having a packer that doesn't care enough to check for twists can also be a problem!

Only if you don't do it. So perhaps it's better to say that if you don't maintain your gear, you'll need a different packer than someone who does.

[airgord 1]

Amazing how fast this got away........

[AggieDave 6]

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Only if you don't do it.

Sure, with sport gear I appreciate a second set of eyes (third if you count my rigger) checking my gear. We're all human and will miss issues on occasion.

With tandems, dropping the rig in the landing area to make the back-to-back, the TI doesn't get a chance to always make sure that the rotation rig he was given had the control lines untwisted. If that rig is making 10+ jumps in a day, waiting until the end of the day may be much too long!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[cocheese 0]

You're fired.

Who wants my money?

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

A few things to consider... or not...

1) If you pay a packer, you take your chances.

2) Every time I've borrowed someone else's gear, after the last time I've jumped it, I've asked them, "Do you want me to pack it, or leave it for you?" (Of course this is after offering them $$, beer or a hardy hand-shake for letting them jump their rig) If they say, "Go ahead and pack it for me", I remind them of #1.

3) Every time I've lent my rig to someone else, after the last time they jump it, I've either told them to just leave it, I'll repack it myself, or I've let them pack it because its easier to take it home that way, but I've pulled it out and re-packed it myself. ASIDE: Since I've gotten my own gear, I can probably count then number of times I've let someone else jump my gear or have offered to let someone else jump my gear on one hand; it comes down to someone I trust likely not to bounce it. I've figured the reverse is true wrt #2 for the few times someone else has let me jump their rig and I appreciate that.

[Andy_Copland 0]

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Thats way more forgivable than my tension knot on a tandem mal (my one and only touch wood.) I still told him it was body position that caused tension knots.

That was the cause of my only chopped pack job. I felt kinda bad about it until I learned that it's usually lines needing replacement that cause tension knots - ie a gear maintenance issue, not a pack job or body position issue. I know there were at least 700 jumps on that line set... Any idea how many jumps were on the one you packed?

To the OP - you packed it. She jumped it. She's responsible, just as if she'd paid someone to pack it or packed it herself.

Not enough to blame it on ragged out suspension lines. I had just started packing tandems and it was a precision without brake settings.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[fencebuster 7]

I had a slammer at Sebastian for the New Years boogie that loosened my teeth. I fractured the right side of my canopy causing a spinner, had to cut-away a canopy that was seriously jacked up and lost my main and free bag in the river. It was a 15 second delay and I am rock solid on exit. Packing error. It sucked but I am still skydiving and my packer didn't mean to do it. Shit just happens.

Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures