Southern_Man 0 #176 June 24, 2011 Maybe a bit off the main topic but seems a good place to remind jumpers (especially those who feel strongly about personal responsibility) that they need to be having conversations with their parents/spouse/children/whoever about their feelings about not suing anyone. I had that conversation somewhere around jump 5 with my parents and have subsequently had it with my children (although they are not of the age of majority, they will be soon enough). I've told them in no uncertain terms that I am a big boy and am fully aware of the dangers I am exposing myself to. Sometimes things just happen in life, people aren't perfect and I choose to take those risks because the benefits are worth it for me."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weaverd 0 #177 June 24, 2011 QuoteSorry, but what a crock..... We have riggers pack our reserves for a reason. Riggers need certification for a reason. It is their responsibility NOT to make a mistake. All the waivers in the world mean nothing when there is negligence. This rigger was negligent. He made a mistake. He made a very serious mistake. I've been jumping for over 20 years. I jumped without an AAD (as soon as I was off student status) for 16 years. That was my choice. I had a couple of stupid low pulls early (one at 500', one a little higher) and fortunately didn't die. I fully understand the personal responsibly aspect of the sport but that's beside the point. Students sometime make mistakes (as do we all, no matter time in sport) and they are required to jump with AAD's for a reason. Anyone with an Instructional rating or Riggers rating has to be held to a higher standard. If I forget to hook up a static line or turn on an AAD and my student doesn't execute EP's, I'm as much or more at fault as my student. If the student dies, is this just an honest mistake? If an airplane mechanic fails to attach a safety wire, which causes a mechanical failure and the plane goes in (even if the pilot MIGHT have been able to save it), is this just an honest mistake? I dislike lawsuits (frivolous lawsuits) as much as anyone, but suing when a real wrong has been committed is the civilized answer (the other option being personal vengeance, i.e. taking a gun and shooting the party that wronged us). If the deceased was someone with thousands of jumps, not unconscious or disabled in the air, I could at least see some merit in the "it was his job to pull" argument. This was a student, with very few jumps. He wasn't irresponsible or foolhardy, he just had things go wrong and he brain-locked. That's what students sometimes do. That's something we have all done. The AAD wasn't a guarantee, but it should have been a second chance. I haven't seen any suggestion in this thread that requiring AAD's on students is stupid or a waste of money. How come? Why bother? It's their responsibility to pull? From what I have been reading I think the issue here is the suing of the manufacture of the AADQuote Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jacketsdb23 45 #178 June 24, 2011 My issue is with naming the aad manufacturer. obviously, the rigger bears some responsibility in not fulfilling the duties of his certification. To what end should he be punished? I don't know, but I bet there is nothing the courts could do to make that man feel worse than he already does. I still think that this is a risky sport. I disagree that we should accept that students will not execute ep's corrrectly. If they do it wrong, or fail to do it, how can it be anyone elses fault they get hurt or die? This assumes they've been trained correctly. Go ahead and take all the riggers assets...feel better?Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen God is Good Beer is Great Swoopers are crazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #179 June 24, 2011 QuoteGreat post. I hear crickets... You hear crickets because it is difficult to compose a reply to such utter crap. Can a rigger make a mistake? Yes. Can't live with the responsibility of that? Quit jumping or become your own rigger. Nothing this rigger did cause the man in this incident to die. The fact he was not cut out for skydiving cause him to die. I'm flabbergasted that people in the sport as long as the two of you have such an attitude. Maybe if you spent more time working with the masses of ignorant people that see skydiving on TV and assume there is nothing to it, you might realize that by giving people a crutch and letting them all believe they can do it, is really just weakening the safety culture on a daily basis. Guess what? There are consequences to actions we take. If you jump from an airplane and fail to open a parachute you will most assuredly die. Perhaps your opinions would be different if you worked with more students. Perhaps I'm jaded since I have more instructional skydives than the two of you report combined. But I know one thing for sure. Every student of mine tandem or AFF knows what Can happen if they fail to open a parachute.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #180 June 24, 2011 And while I'm at it, let me just beat everyone to the punch on this one. Yeah, I'm an asshole. I'm comfortable with that.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumpsalot-2 2 #181 June 24, 2011 You don't sound like an asshole to me. How come we can't just say it like it is, like you did. Save yourself people. That's how I see it ( although, I would chase an unconscious jumper as far as I could safely, to try to help deploy) By the way, I don't have an AAD.Life is short ... jump often. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JCW1966 0 #182 June 24, 2011 Quote To the riggers out there: if a skydiver asked to watch you route their loop and close their reserve pack job would you be offended by this or would you think they are being a cautious skydiver? I bought a used rig back in January. It had to have a reserve repack. Not only did my rigger encourage me to ask questions he taught me how things where done and why. I put the rig on, pulled the handles. then we took my rig completely apart, inspected everything and then I watched as he put it all back together. This took the better part of an afternoon. I have another reserve repack coming up in about a month. I doubt he will be offended if I ask to watch. I would hope that all riggers were this way. Now that summer is here riggers at some dzs will have less time to spend with customers like that unless you can get with them in the middle of the week. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #183 June 24, 2011 >Perhaps your opinions would be different if you worked with more students. And I know your opinion IS actually different. I am certain that if you royally screwed the pooch and one of your students died after you were not there for him at pull time, you would not be posting "I had nothing to do with it, he just wasn't cut out for skydiving." People who work with students, and people who pack reserves, are well aware that they hold a very significant responsibility - the responsibility for another person's safety. You can't always keep someone safe, but every instructor worth his salt knows that that is their primary responsibility. Some instructors (and riggers) fail at that. And while that generally has nothing to do with malice or neglect, it is absolutely a failure; pretending it isn't would be a pretty sad denial of what they were trained to do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites theonlyski 3 #184 June 24, 2011 QuoteIf an airplane mechanic fails to attach a safety wire, which causes a mechanical failure and the plane goes in (even if the pilot MIGHT have been able to save it), is this just an honest mistake? Apples to oranges... If a mechanic fails to attach a safetly wire and the plane comes apart in flight is NOT the same as someone forgetting to set up a fly by wire system that allows the plane to be landed (remotely albiet) with no input from the pilot."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ufk22 32 #185 June 24, 2011 Quote Am I wrong? It's NOT your job to pull? Damn, this sport is a lot easier than they've been telling people...guess the FJC just got a LOT shorter. Didn't say that. Just said that we all know that sometimes students don't. That's why they are required to have AAD's. That's why AFF I's can pull for them. To give them a second chance if they screw up. To use your line of thought.... Am I wrong? It's not the riggers job to properly assemble your reserve? Guess the riggers course just got a lot shorter......This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,623 #186 June 24, 2011 FWIW: Some years ago I was an expert witness for a well known CA company that makes engines for top fuel dragsters. A dragster had blown its clutch and flying parts killed a spectator. The engine maker (among others) was sued by the wife of the deceased. We were able to show that the engine performed exactly as specified, and that the fault was in assembling it to a transmission that wasn't strong enough to deal with the power. The case against the engine maker was dismissed before it ever got to court. IIRC the folks who assembled the car and the race track owner ended up paying (the race track management apparently should have done a better job of inspecting the cars and protecting spectators).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumpwally 0 #187 June 24, 2011 +1, spot on,,personally i think the sport needs to do a better job of pointing that out. ( the fact that you can die ) Everybody has been pussified and seems to only brush on that point lightly.....Screw the PC world and be up front and honest.....but of course we won't,,,no one wants to chase the tandems away.... smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #188 June 24, 2011 Quote And while I'm at it, let me just beat everyone to the punch on this one. Yeah, I'm an asshole. I'm comfortable with that. But You do have a Certificate? I do!MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #189 June 24, 2011 Quote Quote Am I wrong? It's NOT your job to pull? Damn, this sport is a lot easier than they've been telling people...guess the FJC just got a LOT shorter. Didn't say that. Just said that we all know that sometimes students don't. That's why they are required to had AAD's. That's why AFF I's can pull for them. To give them a second chance if they screw up. To use your line of thought.... Am I wrong? It's not the riggers job to properly assemble your reserve? Guess the riggers course just got a lot shorter...... I'm not saying the rigger did not make an error...my contention is the riggers error did not cause this fatality. The mis rigged AAD may have failed to in part to PREVENT the fatality, but it in no uncertain terms CAUSED it. There is a pretty big difference there that hopefully you can see. This was not his 1st jump, he had shown the ability to follow the training on several prior occasions. The whole situation is tragic on a lot of levels, from what we know ~the rigger made an error, which he certainly will have to answer for. The AAD mfg didn't make an error, nothing to answer for, leave them alone. The deceased jumper made a major error, jumped out of an airplane and did ZIP to save himself...just because he can't answer for him self, don't lay all HIS blame on the rigger too. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jacketsdb23 45 #190 June 24, 2011 Jim - SPOT ON! Well said.Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen God is Good Beer is Great Swoopers are crazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #191 June 24, 2011 Here's a poll I've started to collect the variety of opinions and see where the majority lies: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view&post=4140207 The choices are:The student is COMPLETELY responsible. The student is PARTIALLY responsible. The student is NOT responsible. The rigger is COMPLETELY responsible . The rigger is PARTIALLY responsible. The rigger is NOT responsible. The AAD manufacturer is COMPLETELY responsible. The AAD manufacturer is PARTIALLY responsible. The AAD manufacturer is NOT responsible.Please follow the link to voice your opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DaVinciflies 0 #192 June 24, 2011 Quote The mis rigged AAD may have failed to in part PREVENT the fatality, but it in no uncertain terms CAUSED it. It is not possible to partly prevent a fatality. In this case the AAD was not given the opportunity to prevent the fatality due to mis-rigging. Given that there is no guarantee that an AAD will save a life, the mis-rigging may have contributed to the death. The fact that the life-saving chain of events never should have got that far is key, though. Some of the arguments here (not you 'Twardo) are so crazy, I am surprised nobody has suggested counter-suing the parents because the jumper's death was directly related to their being born - and event over which they had no control. Life is a sexually transmitted disease which is invariably fatal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites grimmie 173 #193 June 24, 2011 QuoteAnd while I'm at it, let me just beat everyone to the punch on this one. Yeah, I'm an asshole. I'm comfortable with that. No you're not. Just a highly experienced jumper with strong convictions about our sport that doesn't hide in anonymity here, like some. I wonder if the student was told during his FJC that if his main parachute didn't deploy, his reserve would. Was the student incapacitated somehow, or just froze up? There have been very experienced jumpers do the same after thousands of skydives. I agree with you that the student, or any other jumper is responsible for saving themselves. But I think emotions run high in these discussions and because it was a student jumper, everyone is casting stones. If this was a well known jumper that went in on a big way collision, the rigger would be vilified. Remember James Martin and Reflex? Who's fault was that? Everyone here hates lawsuits, but loved that Skydive AZ won a big suit against Skyride. How do we want it as a sport? If you sign the wiaver, it's a free for all and everyone has no responsibilities in a student's jump? We don't have x-ray vision, that's why a jumper relies on a rigger and his/her FAA certified expertise. Would the AAD have saved him? Who knows, but he didn't get a chance, and I think that is wrong. Yeah, we have different opinions. I'm comfortable with that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #194 June 24, 2011 Quote Quote The mis rigged AAD may have failed to in part PREVENT the fatality, but it in no uncertain terms CAUSED it. It is not possible to partly prevent a fatality. In this case the AAD was not given the opportunity to prevent the fatality due to mis-rigging. Given that there is no guarantee that an AAD will save a life, the mis-rigging may have contributed to the death. The fact that the life-saving chain of events never should have got that far is key, though. Some of the arguments here (not you 'Twardo) are so crazy, I am surprised nobody has suggested counter-suing the parents because the jumper's death was directly related to their being born - and event over which they had no control. Life is a sexually transmitted disease which is invariably fatal. Could be just my interpretation of what you're saying, but the bolded statements seem contradictory in regard to this discussion. ~by 'partly' I mean, as you also pointed out...no guarantees even IF the AAD were rigged properly it would have prevented the fatality. Yes...it SHOULD have been, no excuse for it not to be other than human error. My point is that it seems some want to lay 100% of the blame on the parachute system and those with anything to do with it ~removing any and all responsibility from the operator, who on several occasions prior demonstrated the ability and understanding of how to open a parachute. People are constantly reminded NOT to rely on the AAD, by blaming the rigger, or the AAD manufacturer...we are basically saying RELY on the AAD. That is counterproductive on so many levels. I reiterate, the rigger did not 'cause' the fatality. He is IMO responsible for not properly configuring a back-up device that 'may' have prevented it. IF it would have is always a question, there have been at least a dozen instances in which a properly configured AAD operated within the given parameters and a fatal impact was still the result. Now if the jumper in this incident had PULLED his reserve as trained, and the risers weren't hooked up...that would be a whole different situation. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airdvr 197 #195 June 24, 2011 I really respect your opinions on most all things skydiving but I have a problem with the way AADs are marketed. From Airtec's website... QuoteA quick look in our incident reports will explain how important safety really is in skydiving. The list of rescue reports shows clearly, that the CYPRES turns out to be the reliable life saver in many different emergency situations. CYPRES saves lives - day after day You know where I'm headed with this...Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #196 June 24, 2011 QuoteI really respect your opinions on most all things skydiving but I have a problem with the way AADs are marketed. From Airtec's website... QuoteA quick look in our incident reports will explain how important safety really is in skydiving. The list of rescue reports shows clearly, that the CYPRES turns out to be the reliable life saver in many different emergency situations. CYPRES saves lives - day after day You know where I'm headed with this... I understand what you're saying, but keep in mind that's product marketing...we need to realize that a bikini team doesn't come with every beer. I guess what I'm trying to impress upon people here is the absolute and unquestionable fact, we are all primarily responsible for opening our parachutes in a timely manner. Certainly a back up system should have been in place to help safeguard against the failure of the primary 'human' response to the situation...but in my mind anyway, placing the majority of the responsibility for the fatality on a secondary system (no matter how well marketed) tends to reinforce the false sense of security and reliance on a last ditch back up. There is no other way to say it, the AAD and everything to do with the way it was used, did not cause the fatality ~they were merely a factor in not preventing it, as was the jumper not initiating any kind of deployment. Do we really want to define the battery operated back up as a primary system of deployment...by blaming it 'entirely' for a fatality, that's what in essence we're doing. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NovaTTT 1 #197 June 24, 2011 QuoteThere is no other way to say it, the AAD and everything to do with the way it was used, did not cause the fatality ~they were merely a factor in not preventing it, as was the jumper not initiating any kind of deployment. The AAD didn't cause the fatality and neither did the rigger, but the rigger prevented the possibility the AAD could have saved the jumper. I think the student, had the closing loop been correctly installed and the AAD scored a save, would have had to decide if skydiving is right for him. But students are required to be outfitted with AADs because students can screw up spectacularly and current student fatality rates uphold this as a good policy. Bottom line for me is the student screwed up but the rigger screwed up much, much more and prevented the AAD from probably saving the student's life. He mis-rigged the system and somebody died. It really is that simple. If he hasn't already surrendered his ticket to the FAA then he is a chump IMO."Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airdvr 197 #198 June 24, 2011 Absoutely agree that you and I understand the marketing aspect. FNG's don't. They now view an AAD as a fail-safe piece of backup equipment. You've seen how many jumpers today would not make a jump without a functioning AAD. Due in large part to the manufacturers representing themselves as that uber reliable piece of equipment.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JerryBaumchen 1,048 #199 June 24, 2011 Hi Rich, I've been staying out of this one because I do have a bias, my son is an attorney. Given that, I think that your post is spot-on. I also think that this type of argument will be the basis of the argument in court. I had dinner with my son last night & we spent a couple of minutes talking about this lawsuit ( he has little interest because he does not jump ). He made an interesting observation, and that is that SSK & AirTec may have been included in the lawsuit so that the plaintiff's attorneys can depose them. Then, when the attorneys have a lot more info, they could approach both SSK & AirTec to convince them to join the side of the plaintiff. Some may consider it underhanded but this is what could happen. My observation of these types of lawsuits is that it finally comes down to every man for themselves. It's called divide & conquer. Just a thought or two , , , JerryBaumchen PS) I also think that virtually anyone who has posted on this thread will not be selected for the jury. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #200 June 24, 2011 Bottom line for me is the student screwed up but the rigger screwed up much, much more and prevented the AAD from probably saving the student's life. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one...Yes the rigger screwed up, saying 'much much' more than the jumper, takes away the personal responsibility for our own actions, or lack there of...IMHO anyway. I don't use an AAD, it's a personal choice...what's next, I go in and my dependants sue the DZ for not requiring I wear one? Yeah it's a stretch...but it's on the same path. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Next Page 8 of 14 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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jacketsdb23 45 #178 June 24, 2011 My issue is with naming the aad manufacturer. obviously, the rigger bears some responsibility in not fulfilling the duties of his certification. To what end should he be punished? I don't know, but I bet there is nothing the courts could do to make that man feel worse than he already does. I still think that this is a risky sport. I disagree that we should accept that students will not execute ep's corrrectly. If they do it wrong, or fail to do it, how can it be anyone elses fault they get hurt or die? This assumes they've been trained correctly. Go ahead and take all the riggers assets...feel better?Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen God is Good Beer is Great Swoopers are crazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #179 June 24, 2011 QuoteGreat post. I hear crickets... You hear crickets because it is difficult to compose a reply to such utter crap. Can a rigger make a mistake? Yes. Can't live with the responsibility of that? Quit jumping or become your own rigger. Nothing this rigger did cause the man in this incident to die. The fact he was not cut out for skydiving cause him to die. I'm flabbergasted that people in the sport as long as the two of you have such an attitude. Maybe if you spent more time working with the masses of ignorant people that see skydiving on TV and assume there is nothing to it, you might realize that by giving people a crutch and letting them all believe they can do it, is really just weakening the safety culture on a daily basis. Guess what? There are consequences to actions we take. If you jump from an airplane and fail to open a parachute you will most assuredly die. Perhaps your opinions would be different if you worked with more students. Perhaps I'm jaded since I have more instructional skydives than the two of you report combined. But I know one thing for sure. Every student of mine tandem or AFF knows what Can happen if they fail to open a parachute.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #180 June 24, 2011 And while I'm at it, let me just beat everyone to the punch on this one. Yeah, I'm an asshole. I'm comfortable with that.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpsalot-2 2 #181 June 24, 2011 You don't sound like an asshole to me. How come we can't just say it like it is, like you did. Save yourself people. That's how I see it ( although, I would chase an unconscious jumper as far as I could safely, to try to help deploy) By the way, I don't have an AAD.Life is short ... jump often. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JCW1966 0 #182 June 24, 2011 Quote To the riggers out there: if a skydiver asked to watch you route their loop and close their reserve pack job would you be offended by this or would you think they are being a cautious skydiver? I bought a used rig back in January. It had to have a reserve repack. Not only did my rigger encourage me to ask questions he taught me how things where done and why. I put the rig on, pulled the handles. then we took my rig completely apart, inspected everything and then I watched as he put it all back together. This took the better part of an afternoon. I have another reserve repack coming up in about a month. I doubt he will be offended if I ask to watch. I would hope that all riggers were this way. Now that summer is here riggers at some dzs will have less time to spend with customers like that unless you can get with them in the middle of the week. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #183 June 24, 2011 >Perhaps your opinions would be different if you worked with more students. And I know your opinion IS actually different. I am certain that if you royally screwed the pooch and one of your students died after you were not there for him at pull time, you would not be posting "I had nothing to do with it, he just wasn't cut out for skydiving." People who work with students, and people who pack reserves, are well aware that they hold a very significant responsibility - the responsibility for another person's safety. You can't always keep someone safe, but every instructor worth his salt knows that that is their primary responsibility. Some instructors (and riggers) fail at that. And while that generally has nothing to do with malice or neglect, it is absolutely a failure; pretending it isn't would be a pretty sad denial of what they were trained to do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #184 June 24, 2011 QuoteIf an airplane mechanic fails to attach a safety wire, which causes a mechanical failure and the plane goes in (even if the pilot MIGHT have been able to save it), is this just an honest mistake? Apples to oranges... If a mechanic fails to attach a safetly wire and the plane comes apart in flight is NOT the same as someone forgetting to set up a fly by wire system that allows the plane to be landed (remotely albiet) with no input from the pilot."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ufk22 32 #185 June 24, 2011 Quote Am I wrong? It's NOT your job to pull? Damn, this sport is a lot easier than they've been telling people...guess the FJC just got a LOT shorter. Didn't say that. Just said that we all know that sometimes students don't. That's why they are required to have AAD's. That's why AFF I's can pull for them. To give them a second chance if they screw up. To use your line of thought.... Am I wrong? It's not the riggers job to properly assemble your reserve? Guess the riggers course just got a lot shorter......This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #186 June 24, 2011 FWIW: Some years ago I was an expert witness for a well known CA company that makes engines for top fuel dragsters. A dragster had blown its clutch and flying parts killed a spectator. The engine maker (among others) was sued by the wife of the deceased. We were able to show that the engine performed exactly as specified, and that the fault was in assembling it to a transmission that wasn't strong enough to deal with the power. The case against the engine maker was dismissed before it ever got to court. IIRC the folks who assembled the car and the race track owner ended up paying (the race track management apparently should have done a better job of inspecting the cars and protecting spectators).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #187 June 24, 2011 +1, spot on,,personally i think the sport needs to do a better job of pointing that out. ( the fact that you can die ) Everybody has been pussified and seems to only brush on that point lightly.....Screw the PC world and be up front and honest.....but of course we won't,,,no one wants to chase the tandems away.... smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #188 June 24, 2011 Quote And while I'm at it, let me just beat everyone to the punch on this one. Yeah, I'm an asshole. I'm comfortable with that. But You do have a Certificate? I do!MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #189 June 24, 2011 Quote Quote Am I wrong? It's NOT your job to pull? Damn, this sport is a lot easier than they've been telling people...guess the FJC just got a LOT shorter. Didn't say that. Just said that we all know that sometimes students don't. That's why they are required to had AAD's. That's why AFF I's can pull for them. To give them a second chance if they screw up. To use your line of thought.... Am I wrong? It's not the riggers job to properly assemble your reserve? Guess the riggers course just got a lot shorter...... I'm not saying the rigger did not make an error...my contention is the riggers error did not cause this fatality. The mis rigged AAD may have failed to in part to PREVENT the fatality, but it in no uncertain terms CAUSED it. There is a pretty big difference there that hopefully you can see. This was not his 1st jump, he had shown the ability to follow the training on several prior occasions. The whole situation is tragic on a lot of levels, from what we know ~the rigger made an error, which he certainly will have to answer for. The AAD mfg didn't make an error, nothing to answer for, leave them alone. The deceased jumper made a major error, jumped out of an airplane and did ZIP to save himself...just because he can't answer for him self, don't lay all HIS blame on the rigger too. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jacketsdb23 45 #190 June 24, 2011 Jim - SPOT ON! Well said.Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen God is Good Beer is Great Swoopers are crazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #191 June 24, 2011 Here's a poll I've started to collect the variety of opinions and see where the majority lies: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view&post=4140207 The choices are:The student is COMPLETELY responsible. The student is PARTIALLY responsible. The student is NOT responsible. The rigger is COMPLETELY responsible . The rigger is PARTIALLY responsible. The rigger is NOT responsible. The AAD manufacturer is COMPLETELY responsible. The AAD manufacturer is PARTIALLY responsible. The AAD manufacturer is NOT responsible.Please follow the link to voice your opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinciflies 0 #192 June 24, 2011 Quote The mis rigged AAD may have failed to in part PREVENT the fatality, but it in no uncertain terms CAUSED it. It is not possible to partly prevent a fatality. In this case the AAD was not given the opportunity to prevent the fatality due to mis-rigging. Given that there is no guarantee that an AAD will save a life, the mis-rigging may have contributed to the death. The fact that the life-saving chain of events never should have got that far is key, though. Some of the arguments here (not you 'Twardo) are so crazy, I am surprised nobody has suggested counter-suing the parents because the jumper's death was directly related to their being born - and event over which they had no control. Life is a sexually transmitted disease which is invariably fatal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grimmie 173 #193 June 24, 2011 QuoteAnd while I'm at it, let me just beat everyone to the punch on this one. Yeah, I'm an asshole. I'm comfortable with that. No you're not. Just a highly experienced jumper with strong convictions about our sport that doesn't hide in anonymity here, like some. I wonder if the student was told during his FJC that if his main parachute didn't deploy, his reserve would. Was the student incapacitated somehow, or just froze up? There have been very experienced jumpers do the same after thousands of skydives. I agree with you that the student, or any other jumper is responsible for saving themselves. But I think emotions run high in these discussions and because it was a student jumper, everyone is casting stones. If this was a well known jumper that went in on a big way collision, the rigger would be vilified. Remember James Martin and Reflex? Who's fault was that? Everyone here hates lawsuits, but loved that Skydive AZ won a big suit against Skyride. How do we want it as a sport? If you sign the wiaver, it's a free for all and everyone has no responsibilities in a student's jump? We don't have x-ray vision, that's why a jumper relies on a rigger and his/her FAA certified expertise. Would the AAD have saved him? Who knows, but he didn't get a chance, and I think that is wrong. Yeah, we have different opinions. I'm comfortable with that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #194 June 24, 2011 Quote Quote The mis rigged AAD may have failed to in part PREVENT the fatality, but it in no uncertain terms CAUSED it. It is not possible to partly prevent a fatality. In this case the AAD was not given the opportunity to prevent the fatality due to mis-rigging. Given that there is no guarantee that an AAD will save a life, the mis-rigging may have contributed to the death. The fact that the life-saving chain of events never should have got that far is key, though. Some of the arguments here (not you 'Twardo) are so crazy, I am surprised nobody has suggested counter-suing the parents because the jumper's death was directly related to their being born - and event over which they had no control. Life is a sexually transmitted disease which is invariably fatal. Could be just my interpretation of what you're saying, but the bolded statements seem contradictory in regard to this discussion. ~by 'partly' I mean, as you also pointed out...no guarantees even IF the AAD were rigged properly it would have prevented the fatality. Yes...it SHOULD have been, no excuse for it not to be other than human error. My point is that it seems some want to lay 100% of the blame on the parachute system and those with anything to do with it ~removing any and all responsibility from the operator, who on several occasions prior demonstrated the ability and understanding of how to open a parachute. People are constantly reminded NOT to rely on the AAD, by blaming the rigger, or the AAD manufacturer...we are basically saying RELY on the AAD. That is counterproductive on so many levels. I reiterate, the rigger did not 'cause' the fatality. He is IMO responsible for not properly configuring a back-up device that 'may' have prevented it. IF it would have is always a question, there have been at least a dozen instances in which a properly configured AAD operated within the given parameters and a fatal impact was still the result. Now if the jumper in this incident had PULLED his reserve as trained, and the risers weren't hooked up...that would be a whole different situation. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 197 #195 June 24, 2011 I really respect your opinions on most all things skydiving but I have a problem with the way AADs are marketed. From Airtec's website... QuoteA quick look in our incident reports will explain how important safety really is in skydiving. The list of rescue reports shows clearly, that the CYPRES turns out to be the reliable life saver in many different emergency situations. CYPRES saves lives - day after day You know where I'm headed with this...Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #196 June 24, 2011 QuoteI really respect your opinions on most all things skydiving but I have a problem with the way AADs are marketed. From Airtec's website... QuoteA quick look in our incident reports will explain how important safety really is in skydiving. The list of rescue reports shows clearly, that the CYPRES turns out to be the reliable life saver in many different emergency situations. CYPRES saves lives - day after day You know where I'm headed with this... I understand what you're saying, but keep in mind that's product marketing...we need to realize that a bikini team doesn't come with every beer. I guess what I'm trying to impress upon people here is the absolute and unquestionable fact, we are all primarily responsible for opening our parachutes in a timely manner. Certainly a back up system should have been in place to help safeguard against the failure of the primary 'human' response to the situation...but in my mind anyway, placing the majority of the responsibility for the fatality on a secondary system (no matter how well marketed) tends to reinforce the false sense of security and reliance on a last ditch back up. There is no other way to say it, the AAD and everything to do with the way it was used, did not cause the fatality ~they were merely a factor in not preventing it, as was the jumper not initiating any kind of deployment. Do we really want to define the battery operated back up as a primary system of deployment...by blaming it 'entirely' for a fatality, that's what in essence we're doing. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NovaTTT 1 #197 June 24, 2011 QuoteThere is no other way to say it, the AAD and everything to do with the way it was used, did not cause the fatality ~they were merely a factor in not preventing it, as was the jumper not initiating any kind of deployment. The AAD didn't cause the fatality and neither did the rigger, but the rigger prevented the possibility the AAD could have saved the jumper. I think the student, had the closing loop been correctly installed and the AAD scored a save, would have had to decide if skydiving is right for him. But students are required to be outfitted with AADs because students can screw up spectacularly and current student fatality rates uphold this as a good policy. Bottom line for me is the student screwed up but the rigger screwed up much, much more and prevented the AAD from probably saving the student's life. He mis-rigged the system and somebody died. It really is that simple. If he hasn't already surrendered his ticket to the FAA then he is a chump IMO."Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 197 #198 June 24, 2011 Absoutely agree that you and I understand the marketing aspect. FNG's don't. They now view an AAD as a fail-safe piece of backup equipment. You've seen how many jumpers today would not make a jump without a functioning AAD. Due in large part to the manufacturers representing themselves as that uber reliable piece of equipment.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,048 #199 June 24, 2011 Hi Rich, I've been staying out of this one because I do have a bias, my son is an attorney. Given that, I think that your post is spot-on. I also think that this type of argument will be the basis of the argument in court. I had dinner with my son last night & we spent a couple of minutes talking about this lawsuit ( he has little interest because he does not jump ). He made an interesting observation, and that is that SSK & AirTec may have been included in the lawsuit so that the plaintiff's attorneys can depose them. Then, when the attorneys have a lot more info, they could approach both SSK & AirTec to convince them to join the side of the plaintiff. Some may consider it underhanded but this is what could happen. My observation of these types of lawsuits is that it finally comes down to every man for themselves. It's called divide & conquer. Just a thought or two , , , JerryBaumchen PS) I also think that virtually anyone who has posted on this thread will not be selected for the jury. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #200 June 24, 2011 Bottom line for me is the student screwed up but the rigger screwed up much, much more and prevented the AAD from probably saving the student's life. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one...Yes the rigger screwed up, saying 'much much' more than the jumper, takes away the personal responsibility for our own actions, or lack there of...IMHO anyway. I don't use an AAD, it's a personal choice...what's next, I go in and my dependants sue the DZ for not requiring I wear one? Yeah it's a stretch...but it's on the same path. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
