lopullterri 0 #251 June 25, 2011 Hi Jerry. Ted Mayfield was a speeding train who could not be stopped. Even after he was ordered to cease operations by (if I remember correctly) the States Attorney(?), he continued to operate with borrowed gear that was not technically student gear. Now that guy should have been tossed in jail. I knew and spoke with an ex staff member from there...years ago...Mayfield was a 'Trainwreck" and no one really had the authority to stop him. You see, my largest concern here is this... We are supposed to be self governing, and if we don't admit to flaws (this DZO being one of those flaws), address them and pull their ratings and licenses, then someday the FAA will be forced to step in and spend the money to govern Skydiving. This cost WILL be passed on to us...the Skydiver. Last year the same DZ was (I believe) reprimanded by Strong Enterprises for not maintaining his Tandem gear to their specifications. He also used a TI who did not have a current medical (nor had he had one for quite a while). Neither Strong, the FAA or USPA had the authority to DO anything. This DZO still has his Riggers Certificate, is a TI AND is an Examiner!! Where are our checks and balances here? Where is the 'Self Governing' part of the equation? It is frustrating and detrimental to the sport and makes us (and some of the opinions voiced, make us) appear to be a bunch of renegades and idiots.~"I am not afraid. I was born to do this"~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lopullterri 0 #252 June 25, 2011 QuoteIt is sad to see the Vandalia Park District and municipal airport named in the suit. Does anyone know if there is a state law exempting public entities from being sued over adventure sports related mishaps like we have here in California? Again, you need the entire picture to make this statement. Vandalia is a small community and the Park District and municipal airport KNOW the owner. There is information that you may not have that would (possibly) point to the possibility that there have been complaints in the past or suggestions for a new leaseholder that they failed to move on. What was the benefit to them, you may ask? Well, ASC ran the airport, paid them a fuel flow fee for the fuel distributed there AND ASC paid them rent. MAYBE Vandalia let things stand as they were because they did not want to deal with finding someone or PAYING someone to run the airport. They had a sweet deal going on...until now.~"I am not afraid. I was born to do this"~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sacex250 0 #253 June 25, 2011 QuoteWhen did this become funny? About the time I was looking through your posting history and found this little gem. Let's see there's a fatal skydiving accident on October 9, 2010 in Illinois in which a DZO misrigged an AAD. Three months later, January 11, 2011, legislation is introduced in the neighboring Indiana State Senate with new expensive state licensing requirements for DZO's including requiring the DZO to inform students of any previous safety violations in writing. Coincidence? The lawsuit being discussed here wasn't even filed until June 2, 2011. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4036230#4036230 Sounds pretty similar to what happened in Northern California at Bay Area Skydiving in Byron. A jumper no-pulled and wasn't reported missing until the next day. A county supervisor who was "shocked" that that could happen got involved and started making noise. http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/east_bay&id=7631363 Lawsuits are nothing compared to what would happen to the sport if state and local governments start trying to regulate it.It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hcsvader 1 #254 June 25, 2011 Your still a cunt Have you seen my pants? it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream >:) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hcsvader 1 #255 June 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteYou sir, are a cunt. Get fucked! WOW!! Way to make skydivers look ignorant. Seriously...that was completely out of line...] nope not ignorant, I just know a cunt when I see one. I also have a huge cock, it comes in handy when you find a big cunt that neeeds fucking. My cock also fucks assholes too, in case there are any of those around that need a good fucking. Usually I just stick to pussy's and assholes, as everyone knows what happens when theres no dicks around to fuck them... But when a big cunt comes around... well they're just asking to be robbed!Have you seen my pants? it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream >:) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hcsvader 1 #256 June 25, 2011 See yall cunts in a couple weeks. 3======B Have you seen my pants? it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream >:) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #257 June 25, 2011 All this discussion of the AAD backup device not failing is wrong. The AAD is a tertiary. How to stop a skydive: * Use Main canopy (pilot chute or static line operated) * Use Reserve (Pull reserve handle or by RSL (if equipped) if main already at least partially deployed) * AAD fires cutter which cuts closing loop which should allow reserveto open. For students every AFF Instructor on the jump is yet another to stop their skydive. Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #258 June 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteThink of it this way 'lo-pull'... Say you're a bike mechanic & shop owner~ "Rent One Today @ Terri's Pedal Your Butt" ...someone with 12 miles of riding experience rents from you a bike with the radar operated 'backup' emergency brakes, like a new Mercedes has. You show the renter how to stop and go with the manual brakes, he shows you he can do it. You also tell the guy you're not sure the radar brakes will work and that they should not depend on them. Not the same thing at all. The AAD is "required" on student gear. And a novice 'cycler' isn't as likely to make a catastrophic screw up as a 'student' skydiver. And the 'radar brakes' are not a requirement like say a 'helmet' in some states. So if I rented the bike to this person w/o a helmet, then yes...I am negligent, and would most likely be charged as such. As a matter of fact, unless the 'radar brakes' were required by law, I wouldn't even have them as an option on my rentals. I thought the jumper had a dozen jumps? If so, that's 1/2 way to an A...I know what you're saying but he wasn't AFF level 3. I just don't think it rises to the level of homicide, and apparently neither did the local investigators? Please understand, I'm not trying to defend the rigger/DZO...I believe there were more human failures than just his. I'm only pointing out that depending on an AAD is not in any-one's best interest and everyone should plan like it's not in there...'cause sometimes even when it is...it's not. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyflower_bloom 0 #259 June 25, 2011 Re: sacex250-- I don't know if you are trying to get at something specific, and perhaps I am naive, but I do appreciate you sharing a less popular perspective. You haven't shared whether you AGREE with it, you have simply pointed out, perhaps devil's advocate, your knowledge of how a whuffo jury, or the legal system could construe it, and it's true-- while skydivers may disagree, and I do disagree that Airtec should be helf responsible, it's important to discuss all possible outcomes and perspectives, even if one disagrees. It makes for a learning opportunity, and I am all for learning, even if I dislike the way the system works and puts aside the long history of the sport and the knowledge gained by the community. It will be interesting to see how this plays out and I am interested in hearing about different perspectives.. As for your question about the video tape, I personally at around 70 jumps and entering my 2nd season, would not know whether there was a problem reviewing a video of my reserve. But I plan to observe my next repack to get more familiar with it and comfortable with my gear. That said, it is very very rare that a re-pack is photographed or videotaped. There is a human aspect to this, and the reason we train and trust riggers is because someone has to have the specialized knowledge to pack the reserve, the one TSO'ed component as far as my limited knowledge as a newer jumper... Personally, I cannot fathom Airtec being accountable, though I do see your point and that a court could take it that way... it did however make clear that it is NOT a guarantee, and it DID activate as promised. The reason it failed was not in my mind related to the Cypres, but related to the rigging error. I am sure the rigger feels awful and don't think he should be sued, since this is devastating for everyone and court action will not make things better for anyone involved, in my opinion. Cypress, the AAD, "Activated" as it should have. It had no further way of involving itself with the simple step that was missed by an FAA certified rigger. To me, the rigger neglected part of their (important) job, and the student also neglected their job to pull a canopy before impact-- but I would put more faith in the rigger, FAA certified, to do their job correctly, than a low-time student to perform flawlessly. Overall, both student and rigger/dzo made errors that contributed IMO..."You must be the change you wish to see in the world." Gandhi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sacex250 0 #260 June 26, 2011 QuoteRe: sacex250-- I don't know if you are trying to get at something specific, and perhaps I am naive, but I do appreciate you sharing a less popular perspective. You haven't shared whether you AGREE with it, you have simply pointed out, perhaps devil's advocate, your knowledge of how a whuffo jury, or the legal system could construe it, and it's true-- while skydivers may disagree, and I do disagree that Airtec should be helf responsible, it's important to discuss all possible outcomes and perspectives, even if one disagrees. It makes for a learning opportunity, and I am all for learning, even if I dislike the way the system works and puts aside the long history of the sport and the knowledge gained by the community. It will be interesting to see how this plays out and I am interested in hearing about different perspectives.. As for your question about the video tape, I personally at around 70 jumps and entering my 2nd season, would not know whether there was a problem reviewing a video of my reserve. But I plan to observe my next repack to get more familiar with it and comfortable with my gear. That said, it is very very rare that a re-pack is photographed or videotaped. There is a human aspect to this, and the reason we train and trust riggers is because someone has to have the specialized knowledge to pack the reserve, the one TSO'ed component as far as my limited knowledge as a newer jumper... Personally, I cannot fathom Airtec being accountable, though I do see your point and that a court could take it that way... it did however make clear that it is NOT a guarantee, and it DID activate as promised. The reason it failed was not in my mind related to the Cypres, but related to the rigging error. I am sure the rigger feels awful and don't think he should be sued, since this is devastating for everyone and court action will not make things better for anyone involved, in my opinion. Cypress, the AAD, "Activated" as it should have. It had no further way of involving itself with the simple step that was missed by an FAA certified rigger. To me, the rigger neglected part of their (important) job, and the student also neglected their job to pull a canopy before impact-- but I would put more faith in the rigger, FAA certified, to do their job correctly, than a low-time student to perform flawlessly. Overall, both student and rigger/dzo made errors that contributed IMO... Thank You. You've just summed up my thoughts rather concisely.It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #261 June 26, 2011 Quote Quote Get a sense of humor! Never thought I would see the day someone told Jim to get a sense of humor! O....M.....G I guess pigsreally DO fly!My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #262 June 26, 2011 Hey sacex250... howabout a reply to http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4140602#4140602 ?"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #263 June 26, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Get a sense of humor! Never thought I would see the day someone told Jim to get a sense of humor! O....M.....G I guess pigsreally DO fly! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #264 June 26, 2011 Oh dear . . .quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NovaTTT 1 #265 June 26, 2011 Quote You've just summed up my thoughts rather concisely. Wow! Skyflower Bloom and "concisely" being put together in one thought!!??? Carry your biggest umbrella, folks, 'cause it's gonna be raining pig shit!! "Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #266 June 26, 2011 >This AAD wasn't in the jumper's car. Nope. And the smoke detector wasn't in this jumper's rig either. But in both cases it was in a place where it could not do its job. >It was in the jumper's container, turned on, and, due to not being installed and >maintained per the manufacturer's instructions . . . No again. The manufacturer's instructions say quite clearly that the closing loop must be routed through the cutter. (Just as a smoke detector's instructions say the smoke detector must be mounted on the ceiling.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #267 June 26, 2011 QuoteQuoteThe AAD Malfunctioned? I hadn't read that. I thought it fired just like it was supposed to. A functional Cypres is supposed to cut the closing loop; that's Airtec's definition. The fact that the cutter could not have possibly cut the closing loop makes it as non-functional as my television when the cable is out. The FAA requires installed AADs to be functional, do you think the FAA would say this AAD was functional as installed? Doubtful. Your bull shit is getting deeper and deeper. Explain to us how the AAD malfunctioned. Where does it say in Airtec’s manual that “A functional Cypres is supposed to cut the closing loop”? Where does the FAA say that an AAD if installed must be functional? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #268 June 26, 2011 I think Nanny State proponents are what's driving the country to hell. "You need to be protected from yourself." "Protect me from doing something stupid that might get me hurt so I don't have to protect myself." "You need to run your life like I want you to run it." ad infinitum... We have a great example of those bozos in this thread.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sacex250 0 #269 June 26, 2011 Quote Quote Quote The AAD Malfunctioned? I hadn't read that. I thought it fired just like it was supposed to. A functional Cypres is supposed to cut the closing loop; that's Airtec's definition. The fact that the cutter could not have possibly cut the closing loop makes it as non-functional as my television when the cable is out. Ok then... do you call Sony up and bitch at them when the cable is out? No, because they supply the product, it's up to an independent company to hook it up... right? Exactly. Quote The FAA requires installed AADs to be functional, do you think the FAA would say this AAD was functional as installed? Doubtful. Well... I don't recall the FAA saying ANYTHING about the AAD being functional for a jump. I would be in serious trouble if it was a FAR that I violated when I jump a rig with the AAD turned off! The FAA says (FAR 105.43c) it must be 'maintained in accordance with the manufacturers instructions' so... legally I am falling within the FAR so long as the Cypres gets its 4 & 8 year checks, because that is MAINTAINING it IAW the mfgr's instructions. Try that on for size. You really couldn't win a case on "Judge Judy" with a ridiculous argument like that. That woman would have your balls for breakfast! Shall we check the CYPRES User's Guide? Quote 1.3 How CYPRES works Should the conclusion be that the jumper is in a dangerous situation (i.e. still in freefall at a low altitude) the processing unit triggers the release unit to initiate the reserve container opening sequence. The release unit (cutter) system for the reserve container is completely independent of the rig‘s primary system, because it does not pull the ripcord pin out of the closing loop, but rather cuts the loop inside the reserve container to initiate the opening sequence. Initiating the opening sequence of a reserve container by cutting the loop is a method invented and patented by the founder of Airtec, Helmut Cloth, in 1987. The CYPRES‘ activation system has these advantages: • The reserve container opening sequence can be initiated in two different ways. One method is by the jumper manually pulling the reserve release handle. The other method is by CYPRES when it automatically cuts the closing loop. page 6 - CYPRES2 User’s Guide - Quote 9. Repacking of reserves The following tips are only brief suggestions. Detailed instructions for riggers (packers) can be found in our special publications. („Rigger’s Guide for Installation“ and „CYPRES Packer’s Checklist“) General: The reserve container closing loop must be under a tension, caused by the pilote chute spring, of at least 10 pounds (approx. 5 kg). Only use original CYPRES loops / loop material, pull ups, and discs when a CYPRES is installed in the container. page 34 - CYPRES2 User’s Guide - Quote The CYPRES family of AAD‘s work with remarkable reliability. To date CYPRES units have saved the lives of far more than 2000 skydivers, without a single unit ever refusing to activate when the conditions were met. CYPRES is surely the most reliable piece of skydiving equipment ever produced. - CYPRES2 User’s Guide - page 3 I don't think anyone in their right mind would ever claim that a CYPRES unit with a closing loop that hasn't been routed through the cutter has been maintained per the manufacturer's instructions or is in any condition to function as intended. It's a silly argument!It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #270 June 26, 2011 QuoteYou really couldn't win a case on "Judge Judy" with a ridiculous argument like that. That woman would have your balls for breakfast! The arrogance of your manner of address is really quite obnoxious. You're behaving like an ass. QuoteI don't think anyone in their right mind would ever claim that a CYPRES unit with a closing loop that hasn't been routed through the cutter has been maintained per the manufacturer's instructions or in any condition to function as intended. It's a silly argument! You're confusing "maintained" with "used". They're not the same thing. But it fits into the pattern of your posts in this and the companion thread (where I posted in a bit more detail). I've held my tongue in this thread until now; and I have no interest in getting sucked into your game here. I'm both a skydiver and an experienced product liability lawyer, and I have to say that most of your discussion about the Cypres and Airtec are full of shit. Enough already. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #271 June 26, 2011 Quote I don't think anyone in their right mind would ever claim that a CYPRES unit with a closing loop that hasn't been routed through the cutter has been maintained per the manufacturer's instructions or in any condition to function as intended. It's a silly argument! Almost as silly as blaming the manufacturer for a unit failing to operate as designed, when it was an installer error?"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyflower_bloom 0 #272 June 26, 2011 Quote Quote You've just summed up my thoughts rather concisely. Wow! Skyflower Bloom and "concisely" being put together in one thought!!??? Carry your biggest umbrella, folks, 'cause it's gonna be raining pig shit!! Did ya miss the "rather" in that sentence?? It's all relative... On a serious note, when severe errors resulting in a fatality are involved, there may be more important discussions that analyzing my posts... but after hanging around this place long enough, I can take it...."You must be the change you wish to see in the world." Gandhi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #273 June 26, 2011 As usual you have no idea what you are talking about. Almost all your posts have an odor of troll. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DBCOOPER 1 #274 June 27, 2011 QuoteAs usual you have no idea what you are talking about. Almost all your posts have an odor of troll. Sparky You know the last time I asked if calling someone that had no information in their profile an asshole was a personal attack I got banned for a while...Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #275 June 27, 2011 QuoteQuoteAs usual you have no idea what you are talking about. Almost all your posts have an odor of troll. Sparky You know the last time I asked if calling someone that had no information in their profile an asshole was a personal attack I got banned for a while... But I didn't call anyone anything. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
