Archway Skydiving Sued

[yoink 321]

I can understand why the riggers out there are unhappy with the 100% riggers fault option.

For me, it's a question of the severity and obviousness of the mistake. We don't expect people to be perfect. We understand that human errors can and do happen.
If I was to get a line over on my reserve? Well shit happens. That could happen even if the rigger is doing their very best and I understand that.
But this isn't like that. This is a case of a rigger missing step in a defined process. If the rig is equipped with an AAD I'm assuming that at some point in the rigger / AAD/ harness manual it states 'route the closing loop through the AAD cutter' or something similar?
Simply not doing that step is a BIG error.

Even leaving tools in a rig seems a more understandable mistake - there's best practice to have a process for counting your tools when you're done, but I don't believe that is formalized. Closing a reserve when an AAD is equipped is.


Again, don't get me wrong, I don't believe the rigger is completely responsible for the student's death. He is 100% responsible for not closing the reserve properly.

As 'Twardo so eloquently put in the other thread:

"Again, ~this riggers mistake may have failed to prevent the fatality, but it certainly didn't cause it. "

[mjosparky 3]

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For a "product liability attorney" you sure haven't read much case law.

I really doubt if you have any idea how much “case law” Andy9of8 reads.

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If you're just going to come here as the leader of the Coalition of the Ignorant and launch personal attacks on me then what you say will simply be disregarded.

Would that be the same as someone referring to you as the leader of “Coalition of the misinformed trolls talking out their ass?”

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otherwise get off my ass.

I have read some of your posts on other forums and you seem to follow the same pattern. You hide behind anonymity and take pot shots at others. And it appears you don’t participate in any of the activities. You do a little internet research and start an argument.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[yoink 321]

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You do a little internet research and start an argument.

poorly.

[popsjumper 2]

Why in the world do you guys continue to respond to the guy?
You're like a fish on a hook.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[firemedic 7]

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We assume students are going to make mistakes, otherwise they wouldn't be students. Maybe we should train them on the ground, let them jump without instructors and say its their fault when they die.

This is the rigger's fault. Mis-rigging the AAD is just as bad as leaving a temporary pin in the reserve.

Absolutely NOT the same thing. If you leave a temp pin through the closing loop somewhere in the pack job it will most certainly result in a locked container when the ripcord is pulled. A closing loop that only bypasses the cutter will most assuredly not lock the container when the ripcord is pulled.

Edit: I fixed the font. Had the bold type all messed up.

[mjosparky 3]

Most of what you have posted is either partially or completely wrong. You seem to have a personal vendetta against this DXO and should probably refrain from posting if you can’t separate your emotions from fact. Your attack on Airtwardo is a good example. It has been my experience that people that claim they have “secret information” do so because they can’t come up with facts to support their babble.

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The FAA DOES have its hands tied. For the most part, the only person they can go after is the Pilot.

The FFA never has their hands tied. They can and have gone after people who carry no FAA certification at all. Have you ever heard of Civil Court?

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[BlindBrick 0]

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***
the FAA needs the ability to not just go after the pilot, but go after the entity who is using the aircraft for monetary gain, when there is an infraction.

:SIGH: Why is it that the crusaders are almost always the most ignorant of their cause?

The FAA can pretty much go after anyone involved in an aviation activity. Pulling FAA-issued tickets isn't the only tool in their box.


-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[piisfish 135]

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I've also had four malfunctions, if there was a temp pin in my reserve on each of them, I'd be dead.

four times

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[lopullterri 0]

There is no 'secret' information. Only people who want to remain ignorant to the facts. The information was presented by the coroner and is available through the FAA Freedom of Information act. The contents of THAT report and some of the other facts may well appall you. If anyone bothered to try and get the facts themselves instead of claiming that I have an agenda...This is the type of bashing that is designed to veer the issue off course. I do have facts...what do you have? And I do have an axe to grind and have never hidden that fact from anyone. If there is a DZO out there that needs to and deserves to lose some of his rights...it is this one. If anyone really gave a darn...they would request the information...but you would rather make statements yourself, without having the full facts. At least I KNOW what I am talking about...

~"I am not afraid. I was born to do this"~

[mjosparky 3]

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I do have facts...what do you have? ........At least I KNOW what I am talking about...

You say you have facts, and I am calling you on it. Put up or shut up. You hide behind anonymity and attack other people. That makes your credibility zero with me.

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If anyone really gave a darn...they would request the information...but you would rather make statements yourself, without having the full facts.

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If anyone really gave a darn...they would request the information...but you would rather make statements yourself, without having the full facts.

A few years ago I did some follow up in a fatality of interest to me. I received the documents you claim to have. (See Attachments) The big difference being that I posted the documents for others to learn from. That and the fact that I am not ashamed to give my name.
Now if you have something useful to contribute post it. If not you are just making noise.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[lopullterri 0]

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Wrong....the student pulled too low for the main to inflate enough to save his life. The main had bearly left the bag before impact. I have avoided commenting on this topic of threads since they were generated by someone with an axe to grind (got kicked off that DZ as well and several others).
Just setting a fact straight and now I'll leave the rest of the bashing and slamming to the rest of you.

So...now that (I would assume) we have all seen the reports on this fatality...do you still just think I have an axe to grind? I did for a long time...yes and with good reason (if anyone had bothered to ask me why maybe they would understand. I didn't just get kicked off this DZ because I would not keep my mouth shut...i was ripped off by them, but THAT is another story). My main issue is what I read in all of the documentation on this fatality. After many...many requests, I finally received the actual copies from the FAA (previously all I had was what I had obtained by...'other' means). I know have the actual information obtained through the FOIA. Eyewitness accounts, photos...it is disturbing, but backs up EVERYTHING i previously stated in two threads, including this one. The loop was not through the cutter (and all of you 'DZO followers' who actually listened to the riggers BS about chain of custody...shame on all of you...just who is he accusing?). In addition, the DZO walked up to the coroner at the scene and handed him the data card from the rig on the deceased and and stated something about the AAD in the rig not matching the info on the card. Isn't that tampering? He most likely had to move the body to get the card (as a matter of fact the photos seem to back this up). Nothing about any of this was handled correctly...a short suspension of this rigger /DZO's ticket was not enough and that is why I always fully supported the civil suit that the family chose to bring. I DO NOT believe that Airtec should be held accountable, but believe that they were included as leverage for further information or testimony to go after the real targets...I hope. That's it. I now have the documentation acquired through proper channels and I stand by previous statements.
Why bring this up now? Well...I BELIEVE that I heard that ASC had a "SALE" today? Not certain how they managed this if it is true. Can they sell their inventory if they are being sued?

~"I am not afraid. I was born to do this"~

[grimmie 173]

Asking legal advice on the internet usually gets you what you paid for.

[lopullterri 0]

Not asking legal advice...stating information and 'wondering' out loud.

~"I am not afraid. I was born to do this"~

[skybeergodd 0]

You do realize that this is a public forum? And, that skydiving only exists because of the protection of the waiver (yes, that is just smoke and mirrors but it has sustained us for over 50 years)...I doubt that you do because I know your particular disease is "diarrhea of the mouth" and you do not know when to distinguish between private and public debate....So if you want to make this all public, here you go...Central Conference director Gary Peek has actually contacted the family and offered his assistance in the lawsuit.
Much like "lopullterri" he has decides that this is a perfect time to deliver a deathblow to a DZ he has an axe to grind his.
Now I know the moderator will pull this post the second they see it, but I hope MANY jumpers see this and understand there are actual politics involved beyond "lopullterri" and Garry Peeks narrow minded efforts to close Archway and hurt Jason....
Open your freaking eyes!!! If this lawsuit wins, it can invalidate the waiver we sign, precedence will be set, and that opens up all DZs to potential lawsuits...
In "lopullterri" case (Terri Poston) case, she does not mind because her mouth has gotten her kicked out of every DZ. This is factual, let me state the facts here < Skydive St.Louis, Quantum Leap, Archway Skydiving, Skydive Chicago and Chicagoland skydiving all kicked you off, to my knowledge Missouri River Valley Skydiving contacted you and preemptively kicked you off to prevent you from coming there, so I have no clue where in the Midwest you are welcome.
Gary Peek is upset because as a conference director and longtime Archway jumper he probly does feel slighted that he was kicked off the DZ. But sometimes when you are a politician, you have to know when to shut your mouth to your private and ancient ideas. I’m sorry Gary but drop zones are a business and need to be profit motivated if they are to succeed (anyone want to dispute that fact go have a talk with Larry Hill, I believe that man can set you straight). Gary, it is time for you to go!!! The worst part is you do not even realize just how much you are damaging the sport by assisting with this lawsuit. No matter how you feel, you are a USPA representative…You represent SKYDIVING!! Your actions may end skydiving for everyone. Good Job Gary, I’m glad the axe you had to grind was well worth shutting down a DZ and jeopardizing the sport.
I do not like what happened at Archway. It was a very tragic event and someone lost their life. I can 100% say that neither Terri (lopullterri) nor Gary Peek have all of the facts. Terri has only second or third hand info at the best. I will not stand here and say that there is no blame to be had, I personally believe that mistakes were made but those are my beliefs and not statements of facts as Terri and Gary espouse. The ONE real fact is a person died and had every opportunity to save his own life and he DID NOT PULL either handle until it was too late. That jumper had from his exit altitude until lets arbitrarily say 800 feet to pull a deployment handle. His decision was not to pull a single handle until between 200 and 100 feet AGL, and then he pulled the main ripcord. That student whether consciously or not killed himself. He could not control whatever emotional or physical forces millions of jumpers overcome regularly and pull one of two handles that would have allowed him to live. He was a plain and simple case that not everyone can succeed in skydiving and technology cannot and should not be expected to save those that refuse to save themselves.
I ask the moderators to leave this post up. It is important to see how some posts on this forum and USPA representatives can negatively affect the entire sport.

[davelepka 4]

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The ONE real fact is a person died and had every opportunity to save his own life and he DID NOT PULL either handle until it was too late. That jumper had from his exit altitude until lets arbitrarily say 800 feet to pull a deployment handle. His decision was not to pull a single handle until between 200 and 100 feet AGL, and then he pulled the main ripcord. That student whether consciously or not killed himself. He could not control whatever emotional or physical forces millions of jumpers overcome regularly and pull one of two handles that would have allowed him to live.

Of course, the above is true, but let's keep in mind that AADs are required by the USPA for all student jumps. This student was not provided an operational AAD, and therefore was not equipped as per the industry standard, and does that not constitute negligence on the part of the DZO/rigger?

If it does, your claim that this lawsuit will invalidate the waiver is incorrect. The waiver is there to protect the DZ from lawsuits stemming from accidents, the type where everyone does everything correctly, and something still goes wrong. No waiver anywhere can protect you from being negligent, and in this country the measure of if you were, or were not, and to what degree is settled in a court of law.

I'm not a fan of lawsuits, but this case is troublesome. The student was not equipped properly to make the jump, and it's all because of a stupid mistake. Not a mistake that occured during a jump, where every armchair quarterback pointed out what they 'should' have done, not an obscure rigger error that 99% of riggers would miss, but a stupid, basic mistake that was made in the peace and quiet of a rigging loft.

Do you find that to be defensible behavior? That's really what the waiver is for, if a DZ can 'defend' their behavior, in that they did everything right and to the industry standard, then yes, the waiver should stand and protect them. Do you really feel that standard was met in this case? Do you feel that the DZ afforded this student everything that a student should be able to expect when jumping the US?

[lopullterri 0]

If Skydive Chicago kicked me out then I was completely unaware and would be surprised. You do know that I was one of the first responders who who tried our damndest to save Roger Nelson? And my group basically quit going there shortly after because we just "lost steam" and it just felt so bad?
I have never even BEEN to Chicagoland so know nothing about it, but have never had plans to go there and again, if Mo River Valley preemptively kicked me out, I was unaware and was NEVER contacted, but that would most likely be in response to his friendship with Jason Mark? Where do you get this crap Kelly?
Here is what I DO know. Kicking a person off your DZ because they open their mouth when they see things that are wrong is a powerful tool. It sends a VERY clear message to EVERYONE on the DZ. SHUT UP or I will kick you out too. To quote you, "Open your freaking eyes".
And I have a copy of the entire report (to my knowledge). The eyewitness accounts...all the letters sent...the photos and I have stated facts while you are attacking a person who has always wanted to see improvement in this sport, but when a skydiver with ego buys a DZ, it is not usually run like a business and that is part of the problem.
And why are you attacking Gary Peek? I haven't even seen him post here...I doubt very much that he would assist the attorneys here Kelly. Talk about diarrhea of the mouth, where is your proof? I have mine where is yours? All you care about is whether or not you can skydive somewhere near your home!
I KNOW you have heard Jason talk about 'chain of custody' with that rig. Does that say to you that he took any kind of responsibility?

~"I am not afraid. I was born to do this"~

[AndyMan 7]

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In "lopullterri" case (Terri Poston) case, she does not mind because her mouth has gotten her kicked out of every DZ. This is factual, let me state the facts here < Skydive St.Louis, Quantum Leap, Archway Skydiving, Skydive Chicago and Chicagoland skydiving all kicked you off,

That's just not true.

Spreading lies gives her more credibility than you.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[skypuppy 1]

In addition, the DZO walked up to the coroner at the scene and handed him the data card from the rig on the deceased and and stated something about the AAD in the rig not matching the info on the card. Isn't that tampering? He most likely had to move the body to get the card (as a matter of fact the photos seem to back this up).

__________________________________________________
I don't know about the states, but in Canada student rigs do not need to have the reserve packing card in them, as long as the information is recorded and available in a master log with all school rigs in it. If that is also the case in the states, then no, he wouldn't need to move the body in order to come up with the packing card, it would be in the loft with all the others.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[stratostar 5]

In the US, the data cards are kept with the rigs.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[bluetwo 0]

The student is COMPLETELY responsible. There's just no two ways about it.

We ALL know full well that an AAD is really just a back up device, and not a 100% reliable one at that.

Ultimately we have to save our own lives. Every incident is tragic and one can't help but think if only they had done this or that...

It seems like way too many fatalities are due to the person not reacting. It could certainly happen to me and lord knows I hope it doesn't.

_______________________________________

[Krip 2]

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Why in the world do you guys continue to respond to the guy?
You're like a fish on a hook.

Hi Pops

Help a old man out. Which guy you talking about? JR or the new guy?

I'm confused on a good day.

One Jump Wonder

[airtwardo 6]

It seems like way too many fatalities are due to the person not reacting.

It could certainly happen to me and lord knows I hope it doesn't.

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I don't want to drift the thread too much, but I think since you made that statement, it's important to expand on it just a little.

Always keep in mind that avoiding death or injury in Skydiving is not just about 'reacting'.

It centers around reacting correctly, with-in a certain set of time/altitude parameters, to a dynamically changing set of circumstances.

That's a WHOLE bunch of variables that one needs to be cognisant of and able to sort out 'on the fly' so to speak.

Recognizing correctly what exactly is going on, why and what you need to do now ...is what increases your odds of not being injured. It's something that can be explained & studied, however since those skills are to ultimately be used in a stressful environment...practical application is imperative.

The reason students are trained the way they are, is it exposes them to the basic 'environment' with as few variables to deal with as is practical with a greater margin of time/altitude that an experienced jumper will ordinarily have.

As a newer jumper 'building air time' ya gotta understand that every little extra 'variable' you throw into the jump equation, will have an effect on the what, when & how you need to react.

More people on the dive for example...now you have to track away from them. may HAVE to go lower than usual cutting time/altitude...now THAT changes how you will deal with say line-twist.

A real basic example just to illustrate that second by second changes during the skydive can effect the proper and safe reaction.

The drill is to fully understand all the possibilities and the correct reaction to them.

It's what the commonly heard 'you don't even know, what all you don't know' comment is all about...the more you jump the more you 'understand' the changing dynamics going on and the multitude of variables that come into play.

A lot of us get to the 1000 jump range before finally seeing...'I don't know SQUAT!'

You have to actively work on continually expanding your base of knowledge...it's the foundation and has to be strong.

Understand that adding the weight of more complexity means you also add to the foundation in order to support that weight.

It's having that solid foundation of understanding exactly what, when & how to do what needs to be done that solidifies the confidence with-in yourself that you will survive because the tools are there ...and you unquestionably know how to use them.

The most common reason you wouldn't react is because your are faced with something you're not confident you can deal with because you don't understand it.

Basically... when under stress, when we don't know what to do ~ we do nothing.

Don't EVER let yourself get in that situation.

My speculation on this fatality is that the jumper didn't grasp what was happening, even early on higher up. As the situation deteriorated he understood less & less what was happening, why and what to do.

Losing altitude & options with every second only snowballs the 'do nothing' reaction. You see it in any sport, the mind says ~ 'what is happening, why is this happening, I don't know what I'm supposed do' and the body just freezes up.



So don't say 'it could certainly happen to me' regarding 'not' reacting.

Train your mind and your body that you WILL react, you will assess, understand and perform. You HAVE no other option.

IF you allow yourself to believe that non-reaction is a possibility...you are 100% placing your life in the hands of a back-up device, and as shown in the incident being discussed, the reliability of those devices is also directly effected by a WHOLE lotta variables.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[popsjumper 2]

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Help a old man out. Which guy you talking about? JR or the new guy?

I'm confused on a good day.

From one old man to another...


My post was in response to everyone arguing with sacex250 who was posting some really off-the-wall stuff.
He's obviously not listening and simply wanted to argue yet people kept responding to what appeared to me to be sacex250's meaningless nose-tweaking.

That's all.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Thanks, 'Twardo...

One of those permission/forgiveness things....


I copied your post here posted it new in the S&T forum for the youngsters to read and learn from. I hope you don't mind.

I am the EP nazi at our DZ and you summed up what I have been trying to drill into the youngsters for years.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[peek 20]

In post# 90, by Skybeergodd, the statement appears: "Central Conference director Gary Peek has actually contacted the family and offered his assistance in the lawsuit." That statement is false.

I have not been contacted by, and I have not contacted any family member or any family lawyers in recent history, or past history, to assist in any legal action, as was incorrectly suggested in post #90.

Whether or not Archway continues in operation at Vandalia, IL, was between Archway and the officials of the City of Vandalia, and to my knowledge was a contractual matter.

By the way, Skybeergodd's statement including a reference to my "ancient ideas" is comical considering his use of the term "Conference Director". That ancient term has not been accurate for many, many years.

CRD G.P.