JohnMitchell 14 #26 October 2, 2013 Iago All of which is conducted by a TE rated and certed by the manufacturer. I cant imagine a manufacturer out there who would have a TE ( in this country anyways) that does NOT meet USPA requirements. Since most of their 'clients' are USPA DZs that would be stupid. Their clients are the TI candidates. The IE's should not concern themselves with what some DZ's may or may not want, or the USPA may or may not want, but with doing their job to certify TI's properly. I know, I know, this is all pretty politically naive on my part. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jumpdude 0 #27 October 2, 2013 skygypsieJust curious as to feedback on a non USPA tandem rated jumper taking out tandems students, at a USPA dz ? Would you report it ? If the TI has the manufacturer rating and has his/her ducks in a row with the FAA, who cares what the USPA thinks? USPA is a voluntary membership club and I've seen several DZO's who almost seem to live in fear of the all mighty USPA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 102 #28 October 3, 2013 JumpdudeIf the TI has the manufacturer rating and has his/her ducks in a row with the FAA, who cares what the USPA thinks? USPA is a voluntary membership club and I've seen several DZO's who almost seem to live in fear of the all mighty USPA! You're right, USPA is a voluntary organization. Drop zones do not have to be USPA group members, and there are several well-known drop zones that are not. Drop zones that choose group membership receive some benefits, and in exchange they agree to the group member pledge. That pledge says, among other things, they will use just USPA-rated staff. Usually the reason non-USPA-rated tandem masters do not have USPA ratings is they are unable to pass the FAA 3rd Class Medical USPA requires for renewal. That doesn't make them necessarily unsafe, but it does mean the group member dz where they are working is in violation of its group member pledge. Two ethical resolutions are for the tandem master to do what it takes to pass an FAA medical (and cease doing tandems in the meantime), or for the dz to withdraw from the group member program. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #29 October 3, 2013 QuoteDrop zones that choose group membership receive some benefits Like what? Some crappy ad in a magazine that only members get? As for the medical.... The FAA does not require it. There is no reason the USPA should require it. I have a medical (I have a plane). But the medical is a joke and the AOPA and EAA all know it. They are fighting to remove it.... There is no reason for the USPA to require it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 102 #30 October 3, 2013 RonQuoteDrop zones that choose group membership receive some benefits Like what? Some crappy ad in a magazine that only members get? It is not a coerced transaction. The group members give some value (money), they get some value in return. I don't know what they value, but it must be something, otherwise why would they bother? Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
topdocker 0 #31 October 3, 2013 mark***QuoteDrop zones that choose group membership receive some benefits Like what? Some crappy ad in a magazine that only members get? It is not a coerced transaction. The group members give some value (money), they get some value in return. I don't know what they value, but it must be something, otherwise why would they bother? Mark Actually, it is coerced in many situations. Many municipal airports require membership for the dropzone to operate, therefore they DZO must purchase a private membership to operate at a public facility. topJump more, post less! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygypsie 2 #32 October 3, 2013 Not interested in drama...too old for that crap ! Safety, liability,, proper procedures, etc., as I (we) refer potential students to the DZ . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygypsie 2 #33 October 3, 2013 TI in question has his individual USPA membership, DZ has a USPA group membership. Supposedly, the TE & in this case, the UPT evaluator are one in the same ! Explanation from USPA TI app gfilled out incorrectly, evaluator was not valid, application 'rejected''. TI & DZ state: " he is valid UPT rated..USPA advises requirements & standards, but is not law...so he is good to do tandems ". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygypsie 2 #34 October 3, 2013 My understanding is FAA does require TI to have a Class III medical! Why ? They carry passengers !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #35 October 3, 2013 skygypsieMy understanding is FAA does require TI to have a Class III medical! Why ? They carry passengers !!! False, find the requirement in the FAR's. It is pure USPA. Light sport pilots (to include light sport instructors) carry a passenger - No medical. Commercial ballon pilots - No medical. I think glider pilots do not need a medical either."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #36 October 3, 2013 Ron*** False, find the requirement in the FAR's. It is pure USPA. Was it originally the manufacturers or FAA that required it? Before the USPA took over? I had to carry a class 2 at my job, so I didn't have to go out and get the 3. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #37 October 3, 2013 QuoteWas it originally the manufacturers or FAA that required it? Before the USPA took over? When tandem was operated under a 'test program' the TM had to have a class III med. This was long before the sport pilot rules. When the FAA dropped tandem as a test program, the manufacturers still demanded it. They begged the USPA to take the program over and the USPA wanted it, but the manufacturers demanded that the USPA keep the medical requirement. It is another case of the USPA ignoring the wishes of the members and following the demands of the manufacturers. IMO, the USPA should not require a medical. And if that is not sufficient for the manufacturers, then they can take back over the certifications and licensing."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #38 October 3, 2013 Ron's last paragraph sums it up nicely. It's effing stoopid too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #39 October 3, 2013 faulk04If one is a TI and not a USPA TI, what does he have to do? I think I've heard just make 1 extra jump but I could be way off?? Get together with an Tandem IE and find out.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
djmarvin 2 #40 October 3, 2013 USPA requires an FAA medical. UPT requires FAA medical or other qualified medical such as a CDL medical. USPA keeps the FAA medical requirement partially for the DUI problem. In this case USPA is not following the "demands" of the manufacturer. If they were, USPA would accept medicals other than a FAA medical. DJ Marvin AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E http://www.theratingscenter.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
djmarvin 2 #41 October 3, 2013 faulk04If one is a TI and not a USPA TI, what does he have to do? I think I've heard just make 1 extra jump but I could be way off?? Depends if the TI in question already has a USPA rating of another type. IF the TI holds another USPA Instructor Rating: Proof of manufacturers rating, score 80% or higher on the USPA TI test, current FAA 3rd class or higher medical certificate or the equivalent verified and signed by a USPA Tandem Examiner. Fax or mail the proficiency card to USPA with the $50 rating fee. IF the TI holds a USPA Coach Rating: Tandem Proficiency Card #2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 10 and 16, proof of manufacturer rating, current FAA 3rd class or higher medical certificate or the equivalent verified and signed by a USPA Tandem Course Director. Fax or mail the proficiency card to USPA with the $50 rating fee. 2. Assisted in two Category B tandem ground preps. 3.* Assisted in two Category D ground preps. 4.* Observed ground preps in Categories B, C, E, and F. 5.* Correctly taught freefall stability and basic freefall maneuvers, including freefall turns, backloops, barrel rolls, front loops, and tracking. 6.* Prepared an effective canopy flight plan and provided ground-to-air(for example, radio) instruction for winds up to 14 mph. 7.* Participated in the spotting and aircraft lessons from Categories D through H (or equivalent training). 10. Correctly answered at least 80% of the questions on the USPA Tandem Instructor Final Examination. 16.* Completed one satisfactory Category D freefall and canopy training session and air evaluation during a Tandem Instructor Rating Course. IF the TI does not hold any USPA Ratings: Earn a USPA Coach Rating, then follow the procdures above. DJ Marvin AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E http://www.theratingscenter.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #42 October 3, 2013 djmarvinUSPA requires an FAA medical. UPT requires FAA medical or other qualified medical such as a CDL medical. USPA keeps the FAA medical requirement partially for the DUI problem. In this case USPA is not following the "demands" of the manufacturer. If they were, USPA would accept medicals other than a FAA medical. If the person has a DUI problem, they will not have a drivers license. The SAME standard for light sport pilots and instructors. The fact is that the FAA does not require it. The FAA does not require a medical for LSA instructors. The FAA does not require a medical for glider or ballon pilots either. And you are not going to find too many tandem instructors that want to keep the FAA medical, and even fewer general skydivers. Further, the AOPA and EAA are working to get more situations where a pic does not need a medical."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
djmarvin 2 #43 October 4, 2013 I never stated that the FAA requires any type of medical. If you have acurrent DUI you won't have a driver's license, but the medical for a CDL does not license someone, it is just a medical (similar to the fact that an FAA medical is only a medical). If you have an old DUI you may still be turned down for an FAA medical (it happened to a buddy of mine who had an over 20 year old DUI). The CDL medical does not address the DUI, they leave it up to the licensing folks. I am not saying that anyone wants to have an FAA medical or any other type of medical requirement. Just stating what is currently accepted. Ron***USPA requires an FAA medical. UPT requires FAA medical or other qualified medical such as a CDL medical. USPA keeps the FAA medical requirement partially for the DUI problem. In this case USPA is not following the "demands" of the manufacturer. If they were, USPA would accept medicals other than a FAA medical. If the person has a DUI problem, they will not have a drivers license. The SAME standard for light sport pilots and instructors. The fact is that the FAA does not require it. The FAA does not require a medical for LSA instructors. The FAA does not require a medical for glider or ballon pilots either. And you are not going to find too many tandem instructors that want to keep the FAA medical, and even fewer general skydivers. Further, the AOPA and EAA are working to get more situations where a pic does not need a medical. DJ Marvin AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E http://www.theratingscenter.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #44 October 4, 2013 QuoteI never stated that the FAA requires any type of medical. If you have acurrent DUI you won't have a driver's license, but the medical for a CDL does not license someone, it is just a medical (similar to the fact that an FAA medical is only a medical). If you have an old DUI you may still be turned down for an FAA medical (it happened to a buddy of mine who had an over 20 year old DUI). The CDL medical does not address the DUI, they leave it up to the licensing folks. The problem is my friend, that USPA has two set of rules, & a waver process. I bet you know Mr. St***well over in the buckeye, a life long drunk with so many DUI's and crashed cars while drunk, the state revoked his DL for LIFE after serving a TEN year suspension and then getting the license back, with in 3 months or less getting yet again.... you guessed it, ANOTHER DUI... And was still pumping out those 129.00 buck specials over there. But seeing how the USPA is so concerned for the well being of PAX's they come with this rule and refuse to allow for legal DOT approved medicals by the US DOT, the same house where the FAA resides.....( for those of you can't understand, both agency's are part of the DOT both are DOT approved medicals for safety sensitivity job functions) they go ahead and grant a life long drunk a waver for his medical so he can do TDM's. It's called the good old boys club, having friends with a lot of money and connections in high places with in USPA, like a president of USPA on your high profile demo team who can help you get you what you want. Maybe you should advise your pal to request a waver while networking the system like everyone else, because clearly having only one simple little DUI don't mean shit when you can get wavered a lifetime of DUI's by friends in high places. The whole medical because the DUI's card is total bullshit and waste of our time and money and those who keep pushing that medical because of the so called DUI problem solving reason, have their head up their ass.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimjumper 25 #45 October 4, 2013 I totally agree that the medical doesn't serve a purpose anymore. It's a case of its easier to leave antiquated rules in place than go thru the process of eliminating them. I've always thought that anybody running for a Board slot with a platform of reducing regulations and consolidating what is already in place would be an instant winner. We don't need better or more rule writers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #46 October 4, 2013 I for one support the medical requirement if for only the fact that I have witnessed a trend for the USPA to reduce rather than increase rating requirements over the years.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #47 October 4, 2013 diablopilotI for one support the medical requirement if for only the fact that I have witnessed a trend for the USPA to reduce rather than increase rating requirements over the years. So the ONLY reason is because you think other programs have gotten easier? That is a pretty sad reason to support something. What benefit do you see for an FAA medical that coil not be fulfilled with a DOT medical or even just following sport pilot, commercial ballon, and glider requirements?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #48 October 4, 2013 QuoteA 3rd class is pretty basic and I don't see why you should NOT have one done as a requirement. Maybe you can explain why having a kidney stone would prevent me from doing a tandem jump safely? Maybe you can explain why the FAA does not think you need a medical to be a flight instructor in a light sport plane? Maybe you can explain why the FAA does not think that you need a medical to be a commercial ballon pilot? Maybe you can explain why the FAA does not think you need a medical to be a glider pilot? QuoteIf you're taking passengers I see no reason not to have a cert that says you are in decent health Maybe you can explain why having a kidney stone would prevent me from doing a tandem jump safely? Maybe you can explain why the FAA does not think you need a medical to be a flight instructor in a light sport plane? Maybe you can explain why the FAA does not think that you need a medical to be a commercial ballon pilot? Maybe you can explain why the FAA does not think you need a medical to be a glider pilot? Quotedon't have a heart condition or diabetes or something else that could cause you to croak on the way down. Maybe you can explain why having a kidney stone would prevent me from doing a tandem jump safely? Maybe you can explain why the FAA does not think you need a medical to be a flight instructor in a light sport plane? Maybe you can explain why the FAA does not think that you need a medical to be a commercial ballon pilot? Maybe you can explain why the FAA does not think you need a medical to be a glider pilot?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,048 #49 October 4, 2013 Hi Ron, QuoteMaybe you can explain why having a kidney stone would prevent me from doing a tandem jump safely? It's called pain. Ever have them; I have and I would not want the pain to onset during a jump. I am well aware that no jump can be 100% safe; heck, what does safe even mean as it is so subjective. Just a thought on that, JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #50 October 5, 2013 QuoteIt's called pain. Ever have them; I have and I would not want the pain to onset during a jump. Yes, I have had them and I have to jump through hoops to get cleared. Never mind that the last one was 2009 and I felt it coming on LONG before it was a pain issue. It does not take a genius to not jump when in pain. And why does the FAA not have this issue with tandems? Why does the FAA not have this issue with gliders? Why does the FAA not have this issue with LSA? Why does the FAA not have this issue with balloons? Why does the FAA not have this issue even with a class 2 medical after I had a camera shoved up my cock? (Even after the doc said that he knew they would find nothing, but that the FAA required the test?) So the FAA does not require a medical for tandems.... For LSA, for balloons, for gliders.... And the AOPA and EAA are fighting to remove it even further.... What does the USPA do? Increase a standard that the FAA , AOPA, and EAA are all working to get rid of or limit more."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
