Non USPA rated TI taking out students

[Ron 7]

Iago

What's your point Ron? I look forward to seeing you post about your kid doing a tandem with a TI that has angina and a D tank in the plane.

My point is pretty simple. The FAA sees no need for an FAA medical for tandems. The FAA sees no need for a medical for balloons, gliders, or light sport planes either. I'd gladly send my kid up in a light sport plane, ballon, or glider. I'd easily take my kid in a tandem if I didn't have an FAA medical.

It seems you have very little knowledge of what an FAA medical actually covers.

So my point? The AOPA and EAA see no point and actually represent the members and are trying to reduce the need for the FAA medical. The USPA???? They are adding things that are not needed by any regulation.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[chemist 0]

Ron

So the FAA does not require a medical for tandems.... For LSA, for balloons, for gliders.... And the AOPA and EAA are fighting to remove it even further.... What does the USPA do? Increase a standard that the FAA , AOPA, and EAA are all working to get rid of or limit more.

THIS. Inability to obtain a 3rd class does not mean a skydiver is unsafe. One must be physically and mentally very healthy to begin with to even become a skydiver, let alone get to the point of experience where a DZ gains confidence in said skydiver to potentially jump tandems. A 3rd class certificate is meaningless in aviation but especially so in skydiving.

[stayhigh 2]

if the Ti is reckless and dangerous to others yeah, report that guy.
if the guy is safe and does the job well, why stir up the pot??

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[skygypsie 2]

Point taken...just thought to get insight from those of you who would have justifiable feedback- experience
Concerns were more as USPA dz & members, PIC, student-vs-waivers, liability...
Thanks

[chutem 0]

Iago

******

So the FAA does not require a medical for tandems.... For LSA, for balloons, for gliders.... And the AOPA and EAA are fighting to remove it even further.... What does the USPA do? Increase a standard that the FAA , AOPA, and EAA are all working to get rid of or limit more.

THIS. Inability to obtain a 3rd class does not mean a skydiver is unsafe. One must be physically and mentally very healthy to begin with to even become a skydiver, let alone get to the point of experience where a DZ gains confidence in said skydiver to potentially jump tandems. A 3rd class certificate is meaningless in aviation but especially so in skydiving.

Well we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I believe if we're taking passengers and putting others at risk whether it's LSA, balloons, tandems, etc. we owe them at least an effort to see that we're in good health. The 3rd class may be a joke so we could require a standard physical checkup every other year.

We could put that responsibility on the TI/pilot but I've known a few closet diabetics in my time that keep right on flying planes and taking passengers. At least they were in the closet until they had a problem.

I don't think the "exam" is the part giving people trouble, I believe it's all the "have you ever in your" life questions. Not sure where I stand on the issue.

I wonder how much difference it might make in a pax lawsuit?

[chemist 0]

Iago

******

So the FAA does not require a medical for tandems.... For LSA, for balloons, for gliders.... And the AOPA and EAA are fighting to remove it even further.... What does the USPA do? Increase a standard that the FAA , AOPA, and EAA are all working to get rid of or limit more.

THIS. Inability to obtain a 3rd class does not mean a skydiver is unsafe. One must be physically and mentally very healthy to begin with to even become a skydiver, let alone get to the point of experience where a DZ gains confidence in said skydiver to potentially jump tandems. A 3rd class certificate is meaningless in aviation but especially so in skydiving.

Well we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I believe if we're taking passengers and putting others at risk whether it's LSA, balloons, tandems, etc. we owe them at least an effort to see that we're in good health. The 3rd class may be a joke so we could require a standard physical checkup every other year.

We could put that responsibility on the TI/pilot but I've known a few closet diabetics in my time that keep right on flying planes and taking passengers. At least they were in the closet until they had a problem.

you are missing the point. We are living in a culture where we incorrectly believe we need government bureaucrats to protect us. It is a joke that a government official in washington DC who has zero knowledge about skydiving could protect us better than the DZO. I for one, trust my DZO, staff, pilots and jumpers to stay safe and keep me safe long before I would ever trust a federal bureaucrat.

[Andy9o8 0]

You're all missing the point; although I do concur with Ron and others on this fact: that the rules are often driven by tandem equipment manufacturers. The reason they want TIs to have medicals is only tangentially for medical reasons - mainly, it's for legal reasons. IOW, it's because the tandem mfgrs' lawyers (and insurance companies, when they have insurance) tell them that their potential liability exposure is less by requiring medicals than by not requiring them. Simple as that.

Face it: there are only a very small few tandem gear manufacturers. Without them, no tandem gear, no tandem jumps. So yeah, the Manufacturers' Caucus gets to disproportionally call the shots on stuff, just as DZOs' Caucus gets to disproportionally call the shots on stuff, and for essentially the same reason. Yeah, it sucks, but it is what it is.

I don't have the dough, or the know-how, or the time, to build my own gear, hire my own plane, rent land to jump into, etc., so I suck it up and deal. There's a lesson in there somewhere; just takes a bit of squinting to see it.

[normiss 622]

Or just memorize the letters so you won't have to squint.


I'm still curious why the FAA requires a detailed tattoo inventory for my Class III Med cert.

[Andy9o8 0]

normiss

I'm still curious why the FAA requires a detailed tattoo inventory for my Class III Med cert.

Because on the eve of the apocalypse, they will come for the bikers first.

[chutem 0]

chemist

*********

So the FAA does not require a medical for tandems.... For LSA, for balloons, for gliders.... And the AOPA and EAA are fighting to remove it even further.... What does the USPA do? Increase a standard that the FAA , AOPA, and EAA are all working to get rid of or limit more.

THIS. Inability to obtain a 3rd class does not mean a skydiver is unsafe. One must be physically and mentally very healthy to begin with to even become a skydiver, let alone get to the point of experience where a DZ gains confidence in said skydiver to potentially jump tandems. A 3rd class certificate is meaningless in aviation but especially so in skydiving.

Well we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I believe if we're taking passengers and putting others at risk whether it's LSA, balloons, tandems, etc. we owe them at least an effort to see that we're in good health. The 3rd class may be a joke so we could require a standard physical checkup every other year.

We could put that responsibility on the TI/pilot but I've known a few closet diabetics in my time that keep right on flying planes and taking passengers. At least they were in the closet until they had a problem.

you are missing the point. We are living in a culture where we incorrectly believe we need government bureaucrats to protect us. It is a joke that a government official in washington DC who has zero knowledge about skydiving could protect us better than the DZO. I for one, trust my DZO, staff, pilots and jumpers to stay safe and keep me safe long before I would ever trust a federal bureaucrat.

Does the government require the class 3 medical or USPA rating being discussed here?

[Ron 7]

Quote

As I recall the 3rd class medical I had to take for my private amounted to 'you have a pulse, you're good to go.' I thought it was a joke myself. Why yes Ron, I actually have real world experience with the 3rd class FAA medical so go screw yourself.

Ah yes.... The insults. So your 'real world experience' is that you went through a medical maybe once. Ever been denied? Ever been required to jump through a bunch of hoops that your primary, and the FAA doc said was stupid?

If not, then even you must admit that your expert experience is limited.

Quote

So you can keep picking on me all you want. If you want to be on the paying side of aviation you should have a good health check.

And you keep ignoring that the FAA does not require it. Do you know more than them?

You are ignoring that the FAA does not require it not only for tandem, but also for light sport instructors, commercial balloonists and gliders. So the FAA does not require a medical to be in the 'get paid' side if aviation for tandem.... I guess you know better than them?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

Quote

Well we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I believe if we're taking passengers and putting others at risk whether it's LSA, balloons, tandems, etc. we owe them at least an effort to see that we're in good health. The 3rd class may be a joke so we could require a standard physical checkup every other year.

Well then you had better get on the FAA. Because they DONT require it for tandem, LSA pilots, gliders, or balloons.

I guess you know better than them?

The AOPA and EAA are trying to get rid of the third class medical for basically private pilot/day.... I guess you know better than them too?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,417]

>My point is pretty simple. The FAA sees no need for an FAA medical for tandems.

Right. The FAA has, historically, been pretty lax on skydiving because we self-regulate. Thus the argument "we should stop self-regulation because the FAA doesn't care" will be a self-defeating proposition.

>I'd easily take my kid in a tandem if I didn't have an FAA medical.

There are a lot of things you might do with your own child that you should not do with a paying customer in a commercial environment.

[chemist 0]

FAA doesn't require it, not sure why USPA requires 3rd class since it's a joke and nonessential

[Squeak 17]

normiss

Or just memorize the letters so you won't have to squint.


I'm still curious why the FAA requires a detailed tattoo inventory for my Class III Med cert.

body identification,

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Ron 7]

Quote

>My point is pretty simple. The FAA sees no need for an FAA medical for tandems.

Right. The FAA has, historically, been pretty lax on skydiving because we self-regulate. Thus the argument "we should stop self-regulation because the FAA doesn't care" will be a self-defeating proposition.

With that logic, then we should require third class medical for every skydiver.

But the point is pretty simple. The FAA sees no reason for a TI to have an FAA medical. The FAA also sees no reason for a light sport airplane instructor (less than 1320 pounds) to have a medical either.

The FAA also sees no reason to require a medical for commercial balloonists.

And the FAA sees no reason to require a medical for gliders.

The EAA and the AOPA see no need for a medical for day VFR, less than 180 HP.

So the precedent is already there, but the USPA is holding to a standard that every other organization sees as silly and even the FAA sees as silly.

So since the FAA does not require it (even though they USED to).... Then there is no way the FAA is going to hammer the USPA for not requiring it anymore either.

So the 'we do it so they will not' fails when you consider the FAA USED to require it and dropped it.

Quote

>I'd easily take my kid in a tandem if I didn't have an FAA medical.

There are a lot of things you might do with your own child that you should not do with a paying customer in a commercial environment.

The SAME standard exists for LSA, balloonists, and gliders.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

Quote

Does the government require the class 3 medical or USPA rating being discussed here?

No and no.

The FAA requires that you went through a training program. If you go get checked out by UPT, then the FAA is happy.

The FAA does not require a medical, that is all USPA via the manufacturers.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

Quote

I don't think the "exam" is the part giving people trouble, I believe it's all the "have you ever in your" life questions. Not sure where I stand on the issue.

The exam is actually part of the problem. It tests a whole bunch of things that just do not matter. For example, I had a kidney stone twice in my life. Once in 2003, and again in 2009. I knew three days ahead of time that something was not right, and in 2009 I still jumped on my team till I passed the stone. I was honest and told the FAA this on my medical. They made me get a Cystoscopy procedure. The FAA doctor told me it was a waste of time, but required. My primary care doctor told me it was a waste of time. The doctor doing the procedure told me it was a waste of time. All three flat out told me it was a waste of time, but the FAA required it. So after paying my primary to put me in for the test, paying the specialist to set up the test, perform the test, and then tell me about the test, (then had me go back every six months where I basically told him I didn't have another stone, and pissed in a cup.....). So five mandatory doctor visits at 25 each to send me for a test that all three doctors said was worthless..... And what did the tests show? Nothing.

Stupid. And me having a kidney stone is not something that would be a sudden onset anyway.

And your point about the 'have you ever questions' is super valid. I wonder how many people tell the truth? I regret mentioning the kidney stones. But now every few years I have to have a Cystoscopy just to prove nothing is wrong when all three doctors say it is a waste.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,417]

>With that logic, then we should require third class medical for every skydiver.

For every skydiver who is directly responsible for someone else's life - that might make sense.

[DrDom 0]

Ron

And your point about the 'have you ever questions' is super valid. I wonder how many people tell the truth? I regret mentioning the kidney stones. But now every few years I have to have a Cystoscopy just to prove nothing is wrong when all three doctors say it is a waste.

They make you have cystoscopy every few years for a history of kidney stones?!?!?! I'll be the 4th doc to tell you that's ridiculous. Seriously.

You are not the contents of your wallet.

[Ron 7]

billvon

>With that logic, then we should require third class medical for every skydiver.

For every skydiver who is directly responsible for someone else's life - that might make sense.

Never mind that the FAA itself does not see the danger in tandems, light sport instructors, balloonists, and gliders.

I hope you are drafting a proposal to make AFFI's get a medical right now. I'll disagree with that too, but then your position would be consistent.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[djmarvin 2]

Ron

Never mind that the FAA itself does not see the danger in tandems......

The FAA does see the danger in tandems. Not saying that this should or should not justify any type of medical. Your statement is just a bit ambiguous. The FAA has threaten to shut down tandem skydiving based on specific events. Again not making a statement for or against any medicals. Just pointing out that tandem skydiving is a lot higher on the FAA's radar than most would guess.

DJ Marvin
AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E
http://www.theratingscenter.com

[stratostar 5]

And had you been given choice to use a DOT approved medical eval, none of that would have been 1. Asked, 2. required. & 3. offered the same green light or red light as to your "if U r healthy enough to do a TDM jump." question on paper.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Ron 7]

djmarvin

***Never mind that the FAA itself does not see the danger in tandems......

The FAA does see the danger in tandems. Not saying that this should or should not justify any type of medical. Your statement is just a bit ambiguous. The FAA has threaten to shut down tandem skydiving based on specific events. Again not making a statement for or against any medicals. Just pointing out that tandem skydiving is a lot higher on the FAA's radar than most would guess.

In the context of this discussion, we are talking about medicals. And in particular how the FAA sees no danger in not making a person have a medical to due them.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[raff 4]

skygypsie

Just curious as to feedback on a non USPA tandem rated jumper taking out tandems students, at a USPA dz ?
Would you report it ?

This is just like the MLB/steroid thing. There are hundreds of unrated folks doing tandems. USPA and many DZOs just merrrily whistle there way along, all the while paying lip service to rules and regs which continue to go unenforced. If ever random ramp checks for USPA currency, FAA physicals, USPA ratings, or surprise urine tests were to be performed, a lot of operations would come to a screeching halt. This ain't happening for obviou$ reason$.

OTOH, following a vindictive personal agenda is no more admirable in my book. Flame on.

If you leave the plane without a parachute, you will be fine for the rest of your life.