THIS IS WRONG!

[timski 80]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/this-is-wrong-caitlyn-jenner-goes-ballistic-after-transgender-girl-wins-second-place-at-california-meet-of-champions/ar-AA1bxHdQ?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=0f436d51728745cbb7be1882ee5582c1&ei=13

WRONG, on so many levels...I mean, Mr/Ms Jenner would know, right? Strange and confusing times we live in. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

fusing times we live in...

[airdvr 197]

2nd is just the first loser.

[billvon 2,400]

1 hour ago, airdvr said:

2nd is just the first loser.

Everyone is second to someone.

[wolfriverjoe 1,341]

It's kind of funny (not really).

All of these sports organizations, up to and including the Olympic Committee have polices in place regarding trans folks competing.

They have doctors and scientists examining the evidence, actual real world tests and evaluations that they use to determine who should and shouldn't compete.

And, of course, the actual number of high level trans athletes is miniscule.
Like single digits.

But hey, the Alt-Right has to get their undies in a bunch about something.

And, as usual, their hatred and bigotry is directed at a myth. A lie.

https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked

Edited May 23, 2023 by wolfriverjoe

[airdvr 197]

I think Bruce realizes this is a huge problem for the trans community.  I haven;t seen any polls but I'm guessing 70% or better support for banning trans athletes from competing against women.  

[JoeWeber 2,299]

1 hour ago, wolfriverjoe said:

It's kind of funny (not really).

All of these sports organizations, up to and including the Olympic Committee have polices in place regarding trans folks competing.

They have doctors and scientists examining the evidence, actual real world tests and evaluations that they use to determine who should and shouldn't compete.

And, of course, the actual number of high level trans athletes is miniscule.
Like single digits.

But hey, the Alt-Right has to get their undies in a bunch about something.

And, as usual, their hatred and bigotry is directed at a myth. A lie.

https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked

Maybe there should be a third category: all sexes, all genders. XX with the Boys, XY with the Girls, and XX/XY for anyone who doesn't want to be shoehorned into a genetic category.

[billvon 2,400]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

Maybe there should be a third category . . .

There don't need to be categories.

If a bunch of people want to play a sport they can choose whoever they want for their team.  All women.  All XX women.  All phenotypical women.  All XY men.  Heck, they can have an all white, all male, all XY, all cis straight league if they want.  (I would hope that such teams have lost their appeal, but I bet there are places in the south where that would be popular.)  That's what the Olympics does - they have rules on who can compete as women (based on androgen levels) and anyone who competes there can read the rules themselves and decide if they want to.

However I have zero sympathy for anyone who joins a league where they say "yeah, it's women, that's our only criteria" and then get bent out of shape when an XY woman joins.  If you want to play in an exclusionary team, then find one and join it.  If you can't be bothered to read (or ask about) the criteria, you deserve whatever you get.  Heck, if you can't be bothered to read or ask questions before agreeing to do something, your being "forced" to play with an XY woman will be the least of your worries in life.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

1 minute ago, billvon said:

There don't need to be categories.

If a bunch of people want to play a sport they can choose whoever they want for their team.  All women.  All XX women.  All phenotypical women.  All XY men.  Heck, they can have an all white, all male, all XY, all cis straight league if they want.  (I would hope that such teams have lost their appeal, but I bet there are places in the south where that would be popular.)  That's what the Olympics does - they have rules on who can compete as women (based on androgen levels) and anyone who competes there can read the rules themselves and decide if they want to.

However I have zero sympathy for anyone who joins a league where they say "yeah, it's women, that's our only criteria" and then get bent out of shape when an XY woman joins.  If you want to play in an exclusionary team, then find one and join it.  If you can't be bothered to read (or ask about) the criteria, you deserve whatever you get.  Heck, if you can't be bothered to read or ask questions before agreeing to do something, your being "forced" to play with an XY woman will be the least of your worries in life.

Certainly that's all right as I see it. too. But, just to make it easier for the reality challenged I say adopt a catchall category and tell everyone to let it go.

[riggerrob 558]

How about taking a page from skydiving competitions.

Canadian skydivers frequently compete at the USPA National Championships, and are treated as "guest competitors" who are respected, but they will never win a medal at the USA Nationals.

I have seen similar treatment when Americans competed at the CSPA Nationals and all they got was an honorable mention. It did not matter how many discs they stomped, they only got an honorable mention. The first three medals only went to Canadian citizens ... or landed immigrants.

[TriGirl 268]

18 hours ago, timski said:

I mean, Mr/Ms Jenner would know, right?

Okay, to be fair, Caitlyn was finished competing before she transitioned (and didn't try to compete in a category for her current gender).

Break

Thanks Bill for the background in the Olympic rules.  I lean that way a bit as well -- kids should play all together. If a kid has an idea that they may be trans prior to puberty setting in, they should be allowed to block puberty until they can understand themselves better and be old enough to decide.  That way, we won't have trans women who had high levels of testosterone in their system during their teen years, the effects of which can't be reversed, trying to compete with XX women in high school and college sports. 

If gymnasts can be given puberty blockers to stay in peak competition condition for longer, surely it isn't as harmful as is being described.  No one seems to be advocating for that practice to stop, so why can't kids take them for other reasons is beyond my understanding. (always willing to consider other evidence, but this is what I have seen it at this point).

[DougH 270]

16 minutes ago, TriGirl said:

If a kid has an idea that they may be trans prior to puberty setting in, they should be allowed to block puberty until they can understand themselves better and be old enough to decide.  That way, we won't have trans women who had high levels of testosterone in their system during their teen years, the effects of which can't be reversed, trying to compete with XX women in high school and college sports. 

A casual reading of the science suggests that differences in androgen exposure exist as far back as in utero, 8 weeks after conception, and exist through early childhood.

I have heard it claimed that this has a meaningful influence on performance and physical characteristics, but I don't know what the science actually supports.

I know that science supports that individuals who are exposed to supernormal levels of androgens through taking steroids experience physiological changes that are long lasting, years after the steroids are discontinued, and potentially for life. 

Setting aside the science I think both sides are crazy here.

The Alt-Right ignores the importance of inclusion, is often viewing this through a lens of bigotry and hate, and I think is distorting the scale of the problem.

The Left on this issue is promoting societal and moral arguments as if they are science, and refuses to consider situations where the inclusion of trans athletes is potentially unfair to cis female athletes.

4 hours ago, billvon said:

That's what the Olympics does - they have rules on who can compete as women (based on androgen levels) and anyone who competes there can read the rules themselves and decide if they want to.

Bill how does that apply to high school athletes who are competing in individual sports like track and field?

It isn't a team sport. There isn't a second league to chose from. 

[TriGirl 268]

1 hour ago, DougH said:

The Alt-Right ignores the importance of inclusion, is often viewing this through a lens of bigotry and hate, and I think is distorting the scale of the problem.

The Left on this issue is promoting societal and moral arguments as if they are science, and refuses to consider situations where the inclusion of trans athletes is potentially unfair to cis female athletes.

Yep -- this.  Trying to see all sides of the issue.  That's why I love our sport.  We know every BODY is different, and you just have to learn how to fly yours. :)

[billvon 2,400]

2 hours ago, DougH said:

Bill how does that apply to high school athletes who are competing in individual sports like track and field?

It isn't a team sport. There isn't a second league to chose from. 

Well, of course they do.  (Women's vs men's sports for example - that's two.)  The school has rules that state what the criteria are to compete in category.  That way if a school says "genetic and phenotypic women only in women's sports" then everyone can decide where they want to compete.  If there's a large contingent of people who think that's bigoted or something, they can form an "open" team to compete that way.

The problem we are having now is that schools say "it's a girls' sport and everyone should know what that means."  One of the big objections of the right wing is that no one should have to explain that; everyone should know.  But being clearer up front will solve most of those problems, as the Olympics does.

There's a youth baseball league in our town.  It's 99% boys but there's an occasional girl on the team.  Just not that big a deal.  But if some parent wants to pull their boy out because "it's disgusting" or whatever they are free to.  The key is explaining all that up front so the parent is not horrified when, halfway through the season, they discover that Kam is really a girl.

[DougH 270]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

Well, of course they do.  (Women's vs men's sports for example - that's two.)  The school has rules that state what the criteria are to compete in category.  That way if a school says "genetic and phenotypic women only in women's sports" then everyone can decide where they want to compete.

Bill this is the kind of let them eat cake response that frankly legitimizes some of the Alt-Right backlash.

If the state rule states that the criteria is the students chosen gender identification, then the female cis athlete has the following choices, compete against transgendered women who have physiological characteristics that are outside of the range of physical variability for biological females, or don't compete.

Here is the CT policy.

https://www.casciac.org/pdfs/Principal_Transgender_Discussion_Quick_Reference_Guide.pdf

And here is an athletes account of the resulting unfairness to cis gendered female athletes from that policy who participate in individual sports like sprinting. 

https://adflegal.org/article/i-was-fastest-girl-connecticut-transgender-athletes-made-it-unfair-fight

1 hour ago, billvon said:

There's a youth baseball league in our town.  It's 99% boys but there's an occasional girl on the team.  Just not that big a deal.  But if some parent wants to pull their boy out because "it's disgusting" or whatever they are free to.  The key is explaining all that up front so the parent is not horrified when, halfway through the season, they discover that Kam is really a girl.

You are dancing around one of the real issues here with this cute story, unfair competitive advantage.

No one has a problem with Kam playing with the "boys" because there isn't an unfair advantage held by Kam. Kam is likely at a physical disadvantage in terms of explosiveness and size. If she can overcome that with skill and athleticism then good on her.

In football there have been high school and college female kickers going all the way back to the 1990's, little to no complaint there. If you find me a competitive female offensive lineman at the collegiate level I will go to the games to cheer because that will be impressive! There are female wrestlers competing against men below the collegiate level. Any complaint would be about having to wrestle a girl, not that the girl has some sort of an uncompetitive advantage, or not wanting to "hurt" a girl or get beat by a girl. Tough cookies for those male athletes in my opinion.

The real issue is if Kam was originally a Kurt and could chose to play on the "all girls" water polo team, and Kam weighs 60lbs more than the other players, and routinely contributes to wins for her school because of her excess size compared to her competitors. 

I guess those athletes should eat cake to make up for the difference in stature, muscle fiber motor units, measured explosiveness, etc.

Edited May 24, 2023 by DougH

[billvon 2,400]

2 hours ago, DougH said:

No one has a problem with Kam playing with the "boys" because there isn't an unfair advantage held by Kam. Kam is likely at a physical disadvantage in terms of explosiveness and size. If she can overcome that with skill and athleticism then good on her.

And women have a flexibility advantage in ballet - and regularly beat men at competitions.  Shall we ban women from that, due to their unfair advantages?

Or should we let anyone compete in any such competition that allows them?

[kallend 1,625]

Maybe if our schools and colleges got more concerned with academics and less with sports, this would cease to be an issue.

[DougH 270]

11 hours ago, billvon said:

And women have a flexibility advantage in ballet - and regularly beat men at competitions.  Shall we ban women from that, due to their unfair advantages?

You are being obtuse, and you know it.

Is it a male ballet league or is it an open league that takes all comers? If it an open league then they knowingly chose their pool of competitors. The females in the open league compete against other cis females as well as the cis men, they can compete against trans men trans women, non binary. The best athlete giving the best performance wins.

If it is a "male" only league then I would say that it would be unfair to the biological males. The males have joined under the knowledge that they would be competing against individuals that fall somewhere on the spectrum of potential male physiological.  They are at an insurmountable disadvantage if they have to dance against 95 pound Mike who identifies as female who has unattainable bone structure (pelvis hips etc.), stature, and flexibility due to having been exposed to less testosterone, and more estrogen. 

The female winners of your ballet competitions aren't 175lbs and playing catcher on their HS "girls" softball team in the off season, if there was an off season for ballet. Women of that physical stature could potentially still have an advantage over some of the men, but at least they would overlap more with the spectrum is what is normally attainable for a biological male.

 

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by DougH

[billvon 2,400]

3 hours ago, DougH said:

Is it a male ballet league or is it an open league that takes all comers?

Well, that's the problem, isn't it?

ALL these problems are coming about due to poor qualification descriptions to begin with - and all can be solved with better descriptions of who qualifies.  Then you don't end up in silly sideline arguments like "well, girls aren't as good at baseball so of course they can join a male league since they aren't a threat."

[DougH 270]

2 minutes ago, billvon said:

Well, that's the problem, isn't it?

ALL these problems are coming about due to poor qualification descriptions to begin with - and all can be solved with better descriptions of who qualifies.  

No that isn't the only problem, but it is the only problem that you seem willing to acknowledge. Crystal clear descriptions fail to address the problem of situations with unfair competitive advantages that can arise where there are no alternatives for the competitors to select outside of your approach of letting them eat cake.

My Connecticut example clearly illustrates this.

The qualification description is crystal clear in CT for HS athletes, choice of gender identification is the qualification to play on a "female" high school sports team.

There is no alternative option for a CT biological female high school students to compete in HS track events that have a level playing field where they don't have to compete against trans gendered athletes that posses physical characteristics that are outside of the potential range of potential variability for a biological female. 

21 minutes ago, billvon said:

Then you don't end up in silly sideline arguments like "well, girls aren't as good at baseball so of course they can join a male league since they aren't a threat."

Who is making that sideline argument? Not once have I referred to inherent athletic skill or females being "good or bad" at a sport as the reason for justifying letting females playing male league. It doesn't matter if they are "good or bad", it matters if they have unattainable physiological characteristics that give them an unfair competitive advantage.

Care to explain how situations of unfair competitive advantage are addressed by bettering the qualification description?

[wmw999 2,123]

44 minutes ago, DougH said:

There is no alternative option for a CT biological female high school students to compete in HS track events that have a level playing field where they don't have to compete against trans gendered athletes that posses physical characteristics that are outside of the potential range of potential variability for a biological female.

Until fairly recently, there weren’t a lot of places where females could compete in a range of athletics. The evil Title 9 ended that. That said, it’s also unfair that a single high school can have the top three milers in the state — meaning that the third best miler in the state might not even make the team.

In which case families sometimes change districts or schools so their offspring (no matter the gender) can compete against a weaker set of students. This is vanishing rare, but it does happen. The same can happen in the (probably equally rare) cases where a birth girl wants to compete against only girls at the high school level. It’s not easy, but neither is being the third best miler, or a standout football player in a district with a very weak football program — or a good student in the worst school.

Wendy P. 

[billvon 2,400]

1 hour ago, DougH said:

Who is making that sideline argument?

All the people saying it's unfair for X to compete because they are better than Y.

[DougH 270]

Great effort responding to what I took the effort to write Bill. You have successfully channeled your inner Brent this time around.

I have better thing to do than talk to myself, so I will see myself out.

[airdvr 197]

7 hours ago, kallend said:

Maybe if our schools and colleges got more concerned with academics and less with sports, this would cease to be an issue.

Kind of the pot calling the kettle black ain't it perfesser?.

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Just now, airdvr said:

Kind of the pot calling the kettle black ain't it perfesser?.

Hi airdvr,

Huh?

Jerry Baumchen

[kallend 1,625]

3 minutes ago, airdvr said:

Kind of the pot calling the kettle black ain't it perfesser?.

No. 

We have no "soft" majors for athletes, no sports scholarships, and  athletic prowess has zero weight in our admissions decisions (I was on the admissions committee for several years)..