in air collision on my level 3/ learning exper.

[countzero 7]

i did my level 3 this past weekend. i was pretty nervous about being let go of by the instructors. but i' d been practicing arching and studying my sim, so i felt ready. get to the dz and start going over things with the instructor. start feeling less nervous.

we go up, smooth exit at 13.5. i do the 1st coa at about 12, my pt. get some hand signals to fix my body position. do my 2nd coa at 10. things are still cool.

then the instructors let go. i stay pretty stable, start to spin but i correct it. check my alti. next thing i know, my velocity goes up and, i'm vertical (feet first). then i feel my legs hit something and i twist to the right a bit.

ARCH!! is all that went through my mind. i arched as hard as i could, recovered, got stable and waved off and pulled at 6.

what had happened. is that i got caught by a wind gust and blown above one of my instructors. they stole my air so that's what stood me up. and i hit thier legs with mine as i fell past them.

i know my story isn't extreme as most of the other ones on this section but i thought i'd share. mainly because my being able to remember my training and react and recover, has increased my confidence.

and while i felt silly practicing arching on my living room floor. it sure paid off. so to any students reading this- practice arching. cheers

diamonds are a dawgs best friend

[Reginald 0]

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i did what had happened. is that i got caught by a wind gust and blown above one of my instructors. they stole my air so that's what stood me up. and i hit thier legs with mine as i fell past them.

Is this what your instructors told you?

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[skybeergodd 0]

Some instructors will blame students for their inadequacies at all cost. For me I can respect the instructor that can admit they did not perform 100%.
Oh yeah..."gusts of wind" don't happen in freefall!!!no matter what the instructor says.

[larsrulz 0]

Must have been the jetstream.

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[CrazyL 0]

I'm no Aff instructor but a student getting burbled by an instructor should be part of the flying portion of the course in my opinion. The student that posted here had to use there training for a reason unknown to them at the time. Student reacted properly due to good training and caused a boost of confidence for the student. Well done.

[daniel_owen_uk 0]

Sounds like you got caught in the instructors burble.

Don't fret it, you did the right thing, arch relax, stay altitude aware, pull, land, repeat

__________________

BOOM Headshot

[Tonto 1]

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caught by a wind gust and blown above one of my instructors.

I am an AFF I with 1900 AFF dives.

You got burbled by your AFF I. Any "wind gust" would have affected the two of you equally.

Burbling the student is in the AFF I's tookbox for floaty students you can't stay with. Generally this problem is caused either by the Instructors poor choice of jumpsuit for themselves and you, or a change in your body position. Most students tense up when they "start to spin but correct it." resulting in a drop in fallrate.

A few questions...

1. What's your height and weight?
2. What's the height and weight of the 2 AFF I's?
3. Were the hand signals on either of your COA's a "Hips down" or "Arch harder" signal?

You can't change the past. You did OK with the hand you were dealt, and you've learned that your training works.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[BIGUN 1,073]

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I'm no Aff instructor but a student getting burbled by an instructor should be part of the flying portion of the course in my opinion. The student that posted here had to use there training for a reason unknown to them at the time. Student reacted properly due to good training and caused a boost of confidence for the student. Well done.

Well said. Agree about training the burble.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[popsjumper 2]

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I'm no Aff instructor but a student getting burbled by an instructor should be part of the flying portion of the course in my opinion.

I dunno..I'm no AFFI, but the thought of a flailing student on my back is just asking for something to be pulled that shouldn't be pulled. But I can see that "burbling" a student would help an AFFI keep on-level with a floater if you could avoid contact..

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The student that posted here had to use there training for a reason unknown to them at the time. Student reacted properly due to good training and caused a boost of confidence for the student. Well done.

100% agree...good job Countzero!!!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[mattyblast 0]

Nice job on this one, countzero. Many students (myself included) find this level difficult because of the tendency to spin and the inability to correct it. Practicing the arch on the living room floor, or wherever, is a good idea, especially if an experienced jumper is there to tell you if one leg is higher than the other or something. Kudos!

"DOOR!!!"

[livendive 8]

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I'm no Aff instructor but a student getting burbled by an instructor should be part of the flying portion of the course in my opinion. The student that posted here had to use there training for a reason unknown to them at the time. Student reacted properly due to good training and caused a boost of confidence for the student. Well done.

Well said. Agree about training the burble.

My students will all get unstable at least twice in their progression. The first will be (99% of the time) on backloops and that's what I refer to as "planned instability". The second is "unexpected instability" and it is what it sounds like. Whether it's via a slight shove during exit on a freeflown launch or a burble later in the dive if they nailed the exit. Either way, the purpose of the second is the same...to take them suddenly out of their comfort zone when they don't expect it and let them develop confidence in their ability to recover.

I've still got to laugh at the "gust of wind" thing in the original post on this thread though. Doesn't sound like the instructor was intentionally burbling the student.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[divnswoop 0]

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The second is "unexpected instability" and it is what it sounds like. Whether it's via a slight shove during exit on a freeflown launch or a burble later in the dive if they nailed the exit. I've still got to laugh at the "gust of wind" thing

So are you saying that you will intentionally take a students air on a Cat E jump??

[kipsix 0]

I can not believe that you would intentionally try to cause issues with a student. I'm soon to complete my Level 5 AFF and if you were my instrustor and did that to me. I would happily stand on you neck until your became cyanotic. Then proceed to lift you by the stack and stivel, make a few adjustments then set you spinning about smartly. Instructors like you are the reason I have talked to numerous people that haven't completed AFF because they didn't feel comfortable with their instructors. I have used instructors that I plan to use again and again. What is your plan when you make a student unstable and they fail to recover and are injuried or killed? Any ideas? "I'm sorry", really doesn't cut it!! I can tell you that I will never jump with you and your name is now on the last page of my log book, listed as jumpers not to fly with.

[kelpdiver 2]

well, either it can happen when he's there, or it can happen later when he's not. Which seems safer? Though controversial, harassment drills exist in many sports. IMO, not all recovery drills should be done when anticipated by the student.

He said he'd do it after the backflip went well...and it sounds like he does it in a way that may not even seem deliberate. Like the original poster here. Planned or not, he proved he could recover, and that's a good lesson learned.

[uponone 0]

Wouldn't you rather know how to recover from a burble caused by an AFFI rather than have your 1st time be with your buddy with 100 jumps? I would hope I know how to recover from a burble before I got of AFF and who better to learn from than an AFFI w/ 1000's of jumps.

[billvon 2,435]

>if you were my instrustor and did that to me. I would happily stand on you neck until your became cyanotic.

No threats are allowed here. Your one warning.

[divnswoop 0]

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The second is "unexpected instability" and it is what it sounds like. Whether it's via a slight shove during exit on a freeflown launch or a burble later in the dive if they nailed the exit. I've still got to laugh at the "gust of wind" thing

So are you saying that you will intentionally take a students air on a Cat E jump?? Is this standard at your dz? Did you learn this at the AFF cert course? I'm just curious to the reasons why?

[grue 1]

My first burble was on a non-student jump, I think it was jump like 27 or something right around there, and while I knew in theory what had happened, I wasn't 100% sure how I was supposed to deal with it. My response endeded up being to curl into a little ball and cannonball off the other guy's rig to get clean air

I figured "well, since there's no air anyway, I might as well protect myself and get ready to collide..."

cavete terrae.

[freelyflyn71 0]

I think you're being a bit dramatic. You ever heard of being "fruitlooped"? Usually happens on your AFF grad jump. Unplanned instability should be a part of AFF training, in my opinion. The instructors are trained to handle out of control students. Perhaps a little trust in AFF I's is in order. They go through VERY stringent training to attain that rating. I don't think it's cool to bust on a guy that you don't know, or have never jumped with, either.

The Braver the Bird...The Fatter the Cat.

[kipsix 0]

Should be part of the training, ok, that is your opinion. But it isn't. If an instructor informs me that They may or may not cause me to be unstable then I can accept or decline the risk. As for a bit dramatic? Have you sat and read fatality reports lately. Skydiving is a sport where mistakes can kill you or others. In SCUBA if my instructor wants to turns of my O2 to see if I'll enter the water with out checking it. I have no issues with that. I enter the water do my first check in the water and realize something is wrong and get in the boat to fix the problem. I can't get back in the plane if my instructor causes me to have issues. What is next they pack my Rig so that I have a malfunction so that I have to cut away? should thay be part of the training at 13K ft. I have already stated that the technic would be acceptable in a tunnel. Just not at altitude with so little experience. Death is kind of perminate, don't you think.

[Dolph 0]

Part of the training is to deal with being unstable.

If you've demonstrated that you're able to be stable after a planned temporary period of instability, that' very good. It'll give you confidence and teach you life saving skills.

Most often though, you'll find yourself unstable in a a non-planned manner. Dealing with this should further increase your confidence in yourself and give you another tool used to survive.

It'd depend on circumstances of course. Whether an instructor made you unstable on purpose or by accident doesn't matter onceyou're in the air - it's a matter that has to be dealt with.

It's better to be trained and prepared for unplanned instabilitiy than to not be. In a sense, increasing the risk in training can decrease the risk once "live". A judgement call though with many variables. To categorically deny that some types of training exercises, while increasing the risk during training, also have benefits outside training that may be very valuable is to go over the top IMHO.

What is it the soldiers say - train like you fight - fight like you train.

[MB38 0]

If one cannot handle instability in the air with an instructor present, I fear what will happen when they are alone.





Says the 48 jump wonder.

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[freelyflyn71 0]

Yes, I have sat and read fatality reports...and to my limited knowledge, there are no fatalities resulting in an AFF Instructor intentionally making a student unstable, and that said student plummeting to his/her demise. And as for anyone packing an intentional malfunction into your rig...NOW you're being dramatic...and I don't think at 4 jumps you have to worry about your instructor throwing you around the sky just yet. If you have fear of being unstable without warning...well it's gonna happen. And my first time was when I docked too hard with my instructor while working on forward movement...I folded right underneath him and began spinning on my back. I fixed it with a good hard arch, but it was a great learning experience! You have every right to not want any surprises during your training, such as the instability issue, but really...slamming instructors you don't know ain't the way to go. Seems like you just need to mellow out a bit.

The Braver the Bird...The Fatter the Cat.

[freelyflyn71 0]

Agreed, says the 33 jump wonder.

The Braver the Bird...The Fatter the Cat.

[kelpdiver 2]

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In SCUBA if my instructor wants to turns of my O2 to see if I'll enter the water with out checking it. I have no issues with that. I enter the water do my first check in the water and realize something is wrong and get in the boat to fix the problem. I can't get back in the plane if my instructor causes me to have issues.

In the past, it was very common for scuba instructors to yank off masks, grab regulators out of your mouth, and perhaps turn off your valve. At Depth. While PADI forbids it, other agencies still leave it open and good instructors do it. Tech training does a lot of it.

Why? Because people get their masks kicked off all the time. Their hoses snag on kelp, reefs, etc and get pulled out of their mouth. And people jump in with their system charged, but their valve closed often enough. You don't always have the option of 'swimming back to the boat.' Sometimes there is no boat.

Likewise, skydivers steal each others air. Esp us new guys, and esp on exits with a lot of vaguely known people trying a random new exit.

To the AFF-I's- does the USPA have a stance on harassment drills or exceeing the basic requirements as detailed by the ISP? Or can you go above and beyond wherever you see fit, much like NAUI does for underwater training?