Pilot Chute in Tow, Cut Away ?

[leesamsiel 0]

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Or maybe when they rolled over to grab the bridle, the burble behind them cleared and the PC left? Much more likely than they actually pulled the pin loose..........

I think you're right. I probably wouldn't try to pull my closing pin out myself with a PCIT mal --- I was simply stating the fact that experienced skydivers have done it successfully.

BTW, that fish scale made some awful dents in the side of my car when I tried the experiement you suggested. (You didn't mention that could happen. )

LS

[billvon 2,400]

>If your main deploys after the reserve is open and it has been released it can foul your reserve.

And if your main deploys as your reserve is deploying, it can foul your reserve and leave you with no landable canopies. If it is cut away first, there is a good chance it will clear the reserve and depart. There are valid arguments on both sides.

[shermanator 3]

Afterreading the responses, i know what i will choose. and playing around with the bridal is defidently out of the question. i'm defidently leaning towards the side of pull the reserve first, then can deal. .. one more question though...I jump with an RSL, so if i were to pull the rip first, would the reserv pop open before the main has time to clear , getting entangled. *saying that the main ended up leaving the bag*

disdclaimer: I haven't seen a reserv ride, nor have had one, so i only know hwo they work in theory. tht leaves me with lots of questions. And i know, 'talk to instructors... I have a little bit of a brain, and mostly read this to get ideas and learn how others deal. knowledge ispower, as 'they' say.

CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
CSA #720

[sundevil777 93]

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i'm defidently leaning towards the side of pull the reserve first, then can deal. .. one more question though...I jump with an RSL, so if i were to pull the rip first, would the reserv pop open before the main has time to clear , getting entangled. *saying that the main ended up leaving the bag*

Your question leads me to believe that you don't understand how the components work with each other in different scenarios. Devote some time to review the mechanics of it with someone you respect/instructor/rigger/whatever.

The fact that you jump with an RSL only changes one thing related to the PCIT scenario: The RSL lanyard and snap shackle adds another thing that a departing main can snag the reserve with.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Ron 7]

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one more question though...I jump with an RSL, so if i were to pull the rip first, would the reserv pop open before the main has time to clear , getting entangled. *saying that the main ended up leaving the bag*

See thats the thing. No one call tell you 100% what will happen. Some of the things that can happen if you pull the reserve first.

1. It will deploy clean and the Main will not launch.
2. It will deploy and the main will launch but they will not foul each other.
3. The reserve will deploy but the two will entangle.

BOTH methods will either save you or kill you. You will not be able to tell which is better (none of us can), and you will not have time to make that choice when you are in the path a a 120 MPH planet aimed right at you.

If there was even a SLIGHTLY clear better path, there would be no discussion.

Its a crap shoot either way. Research both methods, talk to a qualified Instructor and maybe a rigger, consult a pastor if you think that will help, and make a choice and train it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[popsjumper 2]

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...you are in the path a 120 MPH planet aimed right at you.

Ron, you do have a way of putting a new perspective on things.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Ron 7]

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...you are in the path a 120 MPH planet aimed right at you.

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Ron, you do have a way of putting a new perspective on things.

Oh how I wish I could take credit for that saying.....But I was told it years ago by a hippy skydiver named Doug Wolf.....Ah hell, he does not jump anymore, I'll claim it

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[diablopilot 2]

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If there was even a SLIGHTLY clear better path, there would be no discussion.

There is but that's a whole 'nother dead horse.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[AFFI 0]

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If there was even a SLIGHTLY clear better path, there would be no discussion.

There is but that's a whole 'nother dead horse.

Land the PC?

[Inthebuff 0]

***When I got recurrent, and switched over to throw-out rigs, I was taught that a PCIT is a total, not a partial. I still believe that to be the case, and treat it accordingly.


Noted,a high speed total malfunction.

Since posting my initial question, PC In Tow, Pull Silver or go Red Silver I have read this thread and several others.

I have read constructive arguements for both silver and red silver.
At my experience level I'm gonna play it like this.

1.Throw out PC at 4 Grand.
2.If nothing happens I will Cut Away and pull my Reserve.

After watching an 80's video called Breakaway ( Bad Hair ) it advised ( disclaimer )going strait for silver with a PC in Tow.Hence this thread.
I put this to my instructor and she said I've taught you Red Silver.
She went on to say that I wouldn't know what was flying behind me and that I didn't have the experience to make any other decision than go Red Silver.

I trust her with my Life.
If it all goes pair shaped next time I will not hesitate.
Red Silver.

I do feel that there is a lot of value in looking over your left shoulder to disrupt a burble.
I will check this out during my skydive along with touching all my handles in sequence and I will treat each deployment as if it's gonna gonna be a Mal.

Be Safe,thanks all for your responses

***********************************
Fly Like Zie Eagle, Not Like Zie Chicken !
Good advice from an instructor I know.

[billvon 2,400]

>I jump with an RSL, so if i were to pull the rip first, would the reserv pop
> open before the main has time to clear , getting entangled.

1. When you pull the reserve handle the reserve will begin deploying immediately. In no case will it 'wait' for anything (unless you have a reserve mal of course.)

2. If you pull the reserve ripcord before pulling the cutaway handle, AND the main opens while the reserve is deploying, then it will deploy alongside the reserve. Will they entangle? They might. (In this scenario the RSL plays no role in what happens.)

3. If you pull the cutaway handle, then the reserve handle, AND the main opens while the reserve is deploying, then the main will barely begin to deploy before it departs the scene. Will it entangle with the reserve? It might. I believe that it is less likely to entangle with the reserve in this scenario; hence my suggestion to always cutaway. But both scenarios present that risk. (In this case, the RSL serves no role either; there is no force on the risers until the main deploys, and hence it will not do anything.)

4. No matter what order you pull things in, if the main stays in its container, then you will just deploy/fly normally but be towing a main PC the whole time. This will reduce the performance of your reserve but is not a big deal. If you can easily do it, it may be worthwhile to pull in the main PC - but only after your reserve is open, is flying well, passes its control checks, your target is made and you have time to deal with it. Do not get distracted from your primary task which is landing your reserve safely.

[speedy 0]

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The only thing I will say with 100% confidence is that you cannot put any more force on a bridle with your hand than a PC can do.

Is your hand not adding to the force of the PC, assuming the PC is out? total force = hand + pc.

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trying to pull it is a bad idea. Don't try to do rigging in freefall.

Now that is something you can say with 100% confidence.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[Freeflysmiley 2]

I keep it simple and do red followed by silver, so I don't spend 5 seconds of decison process before I choose a handle.
Although my personal feeling is thats the better option of the crapshoot anyway.

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Practise the 6 P's!
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[badlock 0]

I had a PC in tow last year.
I cut away and while I grabbed the reserve pad, my 3-rings plopped of and released the main chute - huuuh
Lesson learned: If I hadn't cutaway, I would have had maybe big problems.
The argument for not cutting away because it is a high speed mal doesn't counts in my eyes.
Today we have AADs and in every case I would say that the risk of having a reserve/main entanglement due to not cutting away is much larger than to impact with a working Cypres/Vigil AAD.
Sure: Both shitty things can happen, but I have to choice between the procedure that offers the SMALLER risks.
And I think, it is safer to cutaway regardless of the type of malfunction.
Just my 0,02$

PS: Sorry for my bad english

Don't be a Lutz!

[DJL 232]

Everyone is calling it a crap-shoot about what causes a PCIT. Someone entertain me that this just isn't good enough. Please none of this "well, if you're going to skydive then you just need to accept the fact that..." kind of BS. Is there anything about YOUR gear that would lead you to believe that the main would come free and deploy when you deploy the reserve. Can this inadequacy be eliminated? So far, Tonto is the only person so far who has said anything about prevention

Scenario:
Jamming a large canopy into a smaller tray making a hung-up D-bag more likely.
Closing loop too tight; intentionally, or because you packed it in dry cold main and flew to warm moist Florida to jump.
You’re making a low pass out of a Cessna and will never reach terminal.

I think some people here are smart enough or experienced enough to know that things can happen because of something very specific to your gear. If a student asks a question about cutting away with one hand vs. two is it better to just give them a policy answer or put them in a hanging harness and see if they have the strength for a single hand cut-away? If you see that their gear is a little too big for their short arms are you going to ignore the importance of completely pulling the cables through or even suggesting better fitting gear, or will you just leave it as is?

Next, does eliminating these problems still leave it as a crap shoot as to whether you should go straight to silver?

Bill, could you eliminate all scenarios that make cutting away or not cutting away more beneficial? Could you know that if you have some freedom of movement in your main tray and your closing loop isn’t too tight that there’s no point in cutting away if you look over your shoulder and see a fully inflated PC?

Also, anyone who has had a PCIT, what caused it? Could you have eliminated this problem?

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Ron 7]

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Lesson learned: If I hadn't cutaway, I would have had maybe big problems

And maybe not. You, me NOBODY can claim to know the sure fire safest thing to do. People have died both ways and survived both ways.

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The argument for not cutting away because it is a high speed mal doesn't counts in my eyes.
Today we have AADs and in every case I would say that the risk of having a reserve/main entanglement due to not cutting away is much larger than to impact with a working Cypres/Vigil AAD.

So you think its safer to spend the time trying to cutaway while hoping that your AAD will save you if you take too long? If you do take too long you will end up EXACTLY where you would have been if you just pulled the silver.

That is device dependancy.

I can't comment on your procedure choice...But your reasoning, in reguard to trusting the AAD, is terrible.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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Everyone is calling it a crap-shoot about what causes a PCIT. Someone entertain me that this just isn't good enough. Please none of this "well, if you're going to skydive then you just need to accept the fact that..." kind of BS. Is there anything about YOUR gear that would lead you to believe that the main would come free and deploy when you deploy the reserve. Can this inadequacy be eliminated? So far, Tonto is the only person so far who has said anything about prevention

He didn't ask how to PREVENT IT. He asked how to deal with it.

Yes, proper gear selection and MX will prevent a good number of mals. BUT THEY STILL HAPPEN ANYWAY.

He asked about what to do when, not how to prevent.

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Next, does eliminating these problems still leave it as a crap shoot as to whether you should go straight to silver?

Yes, its about how the two deploying parachutes will act.

You want to talk prevention?

1. Make sure your PC is good. These things wear out.
2. Make sure your main is the correct size for the container.
3. Make sure your pin is not cranked down tight.
4. Make sure your bridle is routed correctly.
5. Make sure you cock your PC...even when using packers.

But he wanted to talk about what to do when

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[AFFI 0]

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I do feel that there is a lot of value in looking over your left shoulder to disrupt a burble.

Tell that to the guy in the attached picture. We have this series of pictures hanging in our malfunction trainer right next to the PC in tow. If anyone wants a printable version of this picture just email me and will send one at 200dpi.

Not believing in a burble or the fact that it can create situations is shutting the door on facts.
It would totally suck to cutaway and fire a reserve into a PC that is just simply caught in the burble.

[DJL 232]

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But he wanted to talk about what to do when

Too bad, MY thread now!

I really think it's better to take his question back to the source. Then you can answer it by saying: "Check your this, your that...now that you've eliminated it, you can say that it's only possible that you have a misrouted bridle, go to silver." Ron, I think you of all people on here aren't one to just let someone be negligent about their gear. And we're not talking about "some malfunctions". All the PCIT's that came free that I've heard about were because of a tight container or tight closing loop. Eliminate that and the children can rest better. You don't hate children....do you?

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[AFFI 0]

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3. Make sure your pin is not cranked down tight.

If you are jumping a Vector in particular, read the owners manual concerning the length of the closing loop. Most second hand vector owners I have noticed have thier closing loo way too tight

[diablopilot 2]

Something I haven't seen mentioned here (I may have missed it) is that in the time it takes you to reach for, grab, pull and get rid of your cutaway handle you will have continued to fall at least 400 ft. That assumes also that you have no trouble locating it, no trouble extracting it, and if you use the two hands on one handle method you'll be using some more precious time getting to the reserve handle.

Don't suck it low.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[AFFI 0]

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Something I haven't seen mentioned here (I may have missed it) is that in the time it takes you to reach for, grab, pull and get rid of your cutaway handle you will have continued to fall at least 400 ft. That assumes also that you have no trouble locating it, no trouble extracting it, and if you use the two hands on one handle method you'll be using some more precious time getting to the reserve handle.

Don't suck it low.

Good call...

Another thing to consider, many talk about one or the other method working or not working for so and so or whomever.

It is impossible without video to tell what was happening with someone’s body position at the critical time of deployment just seconds before they died. Any video I have seen like on breakaway for example illustrates a stable body position when firing the reserve by the trailing PCIT. If someone tries this kicking and screaming like a mental patient or maybe just from using two hands inducing some instability, then they might be increasing their odds of an entanglement.

There are compelling arguments on each side.

What I am wondering, if the PC is in tow whether or not the main is cutaway you still have to risk the reserve clearing the main PC that is towing right? So what is the primary concern after that?

[Ron 7]

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I really think it's better to take his question back to the source. Then you can answer it by saying: "Check your this, your that...now that you've eliminated it, you can say that it's only possible that you have a misrouted bridle, go to silver."

Youa re correct that the best way to prevent having to make this choice....Scratch that. MAKE the choice NOW, but to prevent having to perform that decision, is well maintained gear.

I agree 100%.

However event he best maintained gear CAN mal. So while I do understand your desire to focus on prevention....The question was about the cure.

I would HATE for anyone to think about anything other than what they trained when presented with this type of mal.

Some of the reasons that this type of mal is so bad.

1. Its high speed. A PC does not slow you down much if at all. Time is clicking and altitude is fast disapearing.

2. Its not clear that you have a mal. A spinning canopy that looks like dog doo is easy to tell you have a problem. A PC in tow could clear (and I have had two that did). A good number of folks have died thinking something would clear that never did.

I don't want people to think about what is making the PC tow when they have one. I want them to ACT NOW whatever plan they already picked.

I agree 100% that time should be spent on the ground making sure that everything you do to prevent it from happing, you do.

But I also think that we should all choose now what we will do when it happens...Then train it so it does not.

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Ron, I think you of all people on here aren't one to just let someone be negligent about their gear.

Thanks. But even so, I have had two PCIT. They both cleared, but I still had them.

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All the PCIT's that came free that I've heard about were because of a tight container or tight closing loop.

Please add:
Uncocked PC
Worn out PC.

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Eliminate that and the children can rest better. You don't hate children....do you?

HATE is such a strong word....Lets go with *avoid*

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rredman 0]

I had the same thing happen. Still not sure what caused the PCIT, and I wish I could say that I thought about how to react to it, but I didn't. I acted on instinct and the only EP I had practiced was red then silver, which is what I did and lived (one of the scenarios). The main deployed a fraction before the reserve, and actually entangled with the reserve PC and freebag! Looked more like a skyhook deployment.

The scenario was first jump of the year in February in Canada (a little cold), hop & pop from 3,500, 5 second delay and rock solid stable when I deployed.

Did I do the right thing.. hmm... I'm alive... would I be if I hadn't cutaway first... hmm... not sure and will never know. Sure wish I had video!

Ross

[lilchief 0]

I stopped reading replies after the first page, so if this has been posted somewhere on the second page, sorry for wasting time.

BUT, I couldn't stop thinking of a solution to the problem. I believe someone in an interview by SkydiveRadio said: "rigg design has over time changed to solve problems".

Okay, we have here a delicate situation and whatever we do as an EP there will be drawback and pros...

So what if we change de design to the main container? I've already come up with to possibilities, and with many skydivers with years and tons of jumps more than me I believe that the solution is right in front of us:

1) What if the kill line had the pin attached to it. So after the pin is pulled, the pin is almost fully hidden in the bridle. In this case, you HAVE to cock the pilot properly for the pin to clear out so you can close your container. But I believe I've been told that there have been containerlock's where the PC with full pullforce still haven't deployed the main due to a mal with the pin and what not. If that's true, then this option is not reliable.

2)My second solutions it to add some kind of flap(like the ones covering your risers over your shoulders) to one of the closing flaps on the main container. This is then tucked into another flap or flaps. This ensuring that it stays locked even when tension is diminished when the reserve has settled nicely over your head. Maybe in combination of a stiffer piece of fabric in the end of the reservecontainer where the ADD is located. If we need more pullforce...well..just upsize the PC.

Hope we soon see a solution to this problem

"Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return." - Da Vinci
www.lilchief.no