Inthebuff 0 #1 April 6, 2006 There are conflicting views out there regarding how to deal with this high speed partial malfunction with a throw away pilot chute. One view is to go strait for the reserve,the other is to cut away first. Any thoughts or experiences to share ?*********************************** Fly Like Zie Eagle, Not Like Zie Chicken ! Good advice from an instructor I know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #2 April 6, 2006 There is no correct answer. Do a search there are a hundred threads on this already... pick one method and stick with it.NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MB38 0 #3 April 6, 2006 Quoteexperiences to share ?Most experiences will probably fall into these categories: "I had a PCIT and pulled silver without cutting away. it worked." "I had a PCIT and went through my full EPs. It worked." "I had a PCIT that cleared itself just as I pulled silver. I had a two-out." "I had a PCIT that cleared itself just as I cut away. I lived." Opinions generally fall as follows: "You should cut away and pull your reserve. It is best to always use the same set of EPs. That way you don't have to think when it happens to you, you just act. No lost altitude." "You should just go for your reserve. A PCIT is a high-speed malfunction, you have to react accordingly. Why waste time and altitude chopping a canopy that isn't open?" A few have even said something along the lines of "I don't want to cut away in case I have reserve problems. I might be able to fight my main out if I'm all out of other options. If I chopped it before pulling silver, I wouldn't have that chance." -- That's what I've learned from reading many threads on this subject. I based my personal decision partially on those readings, partly on my gut feeling, but mostly on discussions with my instructors.I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #4 April 7, 2006 The debate centers on the fact that many times a PC in tow will stop 'towing' when the reserve is opened, because of reduced tension on the container, thus there is a risk of a simultaneous deployment and entanglement. The chance for problems with a 2 out situation must be balanced against the chance for the departing main to snag the reserve. It is not a settled issue on which is best, but I favor not cutting away. Please read; http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=597809#597809 and this is a decent thread dealing thoughtfully with the subject (of course my posts are the most thoughtful): http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=597809People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MB38 0 #5 April 7, 2006 Your link is borked, here's the thread.I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shermanator 4 #6 April 7, 2006 Newb question here... When a pcit, is it usually just the pin didnt pop out? and in that case, is it possible to reach behind and yank on the bridal to pull the pin?CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08 CSA #720 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MB38 0 #7 April 7, 2006 Sometimes it's the pin, sometimes it's a misrouted bridle, sometimes it's other stuff I can't think of or don't know of. When you consider reaching back and pulling on the bridle, you must consider the drag [read: pull force] a pilot chute creates at 120mph. Without getting technical, it's many times greater than the force you could enact by reaching behind your back and pulling away from yourself at an awkward angle. That said, some have cleared a PCIT by reaching back and yanking. Strange things happen up there.I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrBrant 0 #8 April 7, 2006 Quote Most experiences will probably fall into these categories: "I had a PCIT and pulled silver without cutting away. it worked." "I had a PCIT and went through my full EPs. It worked." "I had a PCIT that cleared itself just as I pulled silver. I had a two-out." "I had a PCIT that cleared itself just as I cut away. I lived." you forgot: "I had a PCIT and pulled silver without cutting away. I died." "I had a PCIT and went through my full EPs. I died." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MB38 0 #9 April 7, 2006 Quoteyou forgot: "I had a PCIT and pulled silver without cutting away. I died." "I had a PCIT and went through my full EPs. I died." I assumed that they wouldn't be posting here. I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cs_source 0 #10 April 7, 2006 somebody says the better thing is cut away before you pulling reserve ripcord in a case of PCIT. only one movement beyond view skydive fatality forum... http://www.dropzone.com/fatalities/Detailed/85.shtml only one thing must I write... check your gear before you jump.... THIS IS ONLY WHAT I MEAN and HEARD. I never use a reserve for save my life, thanx GOD! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #11 April 7, 2006 Prevention is the key. Make sure your PC is cocked. Make sure your bridal is correctly routed. Make sure that your PC, bridal, risers and 3 ring system are meticulously maintained and replaced well before they're likely to fail in use. Any financial saving you make here will be regretted about 0.2 seconds into your first PC in tow, or your main's refusal to leave in the event of a mal. These are the components that start your deployment, or that allow your escape if that deployment fails. Look after them. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leesamsiel 0 #12 April 7, 2006 QuoteWhen you consider reaching back and pulling on the bridle, you must consider the drag [read: pull force] a pilot chute creates at 120mph. Without getting technical, it's many times greater than the force you could enact by reaching behind your back and pulling away from yourself at an awkward angle. I don't agree with your assertion that it would be too hard to pull your closing pin by grabbing the bridle behind your back. I have never had a PCIT, but I know others who have and DID pull the bridle to initiate a normal, successful deployment. HOWEVER: (1) They were experienced skydivers (1,000+ jumps); (2) They had plenty of altitude to deal with the problem (~3,000'); (3) They were sure they did not have a misrouted bridle. If you are not an experienced skydiver, I would initiate EP's directly and not mess around trying to find your bridle behind your back in FF.......but it is not impossible to do. LS Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,917 #13 April 7, 2006 For newer jumpers I recommend ALWAYS cutting away first. Why? 1. It's easier to learn one procedure for all mals. 2. Newer jumpers may not be able to tell a PC in tow from a PC in burble. 3. Two outs are harder to deal with when you have low experience/no CRW experience. Once they have a few hundred jumps, a few CRW jumps and/or a mal or two, jumpers are in a better position to decide how to handle it themselves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #14 April 7, 2006 QuoteI don't agree with your assertion that it would be too hard to pull your closing pin by grabbing the bridle behind your back. I have never had a PCIT, but I know others who have and DID pull the bridle to initiate a normal, successful deployment Or maybe when they rolled over to grab the bridle, the burble behind them cleared and the PC left? Much more likely than they actually pulled the pin loose. Simple facts: 1. A 120 MPH wind in a PC will put more force on a bridle than you can by reaching back and pulling. Doubt me? Get a fish scale and try to measure how much force you can get by pulling from the center of your back straight out....Post your results. Then take that same scale and tie a PC to it. Get in your car and on a no wind day stick it out the window, start driving....See how long it takes to reach the same force. Then see how much force you can get before it feels like it is going to rip your arm off....Post the results. 2. Doing 120 MPH towards certain death is not the time to try in air rigging. We burn altitude at about 6 seconds per 1,000 feet. So from 3 grand we have 18 seconds left to live, about 15 to DO something that will let us survive. 3. Its bad form to give new people crazy ideas of how to react in a high stress environment. If you have the skill to pull something crazy like in air re-rigging off when all hell is breaking loose and your life is on the line, you don't need to be told to try it. When all hell breaks loose, most people have a problem doing ONE SIMPLE emergency procedure 100% correct. So now if people listen to you instead of having TWO options, they will now think they have to choose between THREE. I would rather that have ONE and practice it till it is automatic. They need to pick one and train it. People have landed a two out and survived, your chances of landing just a Pilot Chute is not very good. STOP THE SKYDIVE! Quote(1) They were experienced skydivers (1,000+ jumps) Experienced jumpers still die. Quote(2) They had plenty of altitude to deal with the problem (~3,000') And losing it fast. From 3 grand they have 18 seconds left to live. Quote(3) They were sure they did not have a misrouted bridle. How can they be sure? You think the people who DO have misrouted bridles were idiots, or people who just made a mistake? You think that anyone that thought they had a misrouted bridle would have jumped? I very much doubt that many people can think that fast and be 100% sure."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #15 April 7, 2006 QuoteI would rather that have ONE and practice it till it is automatic. I discussed options after the last pcit thread with my CI. He echoed precisely that opinion for newbies, for much the same reasons as billvon's post. QuoteHow can they be sure? You think the people who DO have misrouted bridles were idiots, or people who just made a mistake? You think that anyone that thought they had a misrouted bridle would have jumped? I was at the DZ one day when another jumper was showing us how a packer at a large DZ in Florida had packed him a mal via a misrouted bridle (pullout rig). There was no way that his main container was going to open, and the misrouting was not evident from a gear check.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #16 April 7, 2006 QuoteNewb question here... When a pcit, is it usually just the pin didnt pop out? and in that case, is it possible to reach behind and yank on the bridal to pull the pin? It's possible and some people have done it. But it wastes precious time and fixates you on another task while the ground is rushing up at you. I knew a guy who died messing around with a p/c in tow. Truth is, there is NO "perfect" system for dealing with these nasty malfunctions. If somebody can develop an improvement to our gear that will deal with it better, then I'll buy their rig. Until then, simply decide whether or not you're cutting away before you pull silver, but always pull silver - it's the ONLY handle that saves your life. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #17 April 7, 2006 Both have merit, two examples. A guy in the US on business from England stopped by our DZ to make a jump. He had about 80, was well checked out and current. DZ rented him a rig, he went up and went in. Never deployed main or reserve. I help State Police investigate. Both main and reserve appeared normal and should have worked. Cutway handle was never found. I reviewed his log book. This was in the early 90's and he was trying some freestyle moves on solos but having lots of stability problems. I believe he was trying them again, lost altitude awareness, realized he was low, decided to open his reserve, initiated his one emergency procedure, and pulled the only handle that wouldn't save his life. This is my supposition. The tree may have pulled his cutaway. If he had to pick between two EP's would that have slowed his pull down too? Don't know. (BTW no reason to believe suicide.) Second example, me. Winter demo 1987. Fat pack job in the low humidity. Moderately tired F111 PC. Exited low under the clouds, stumbled on exit and took 3 or 4 seconds to ensure stability. Threw out, believe in keeping shoulders square so I don't watch my PC leave. Nothing. Look back, PC towing at end of bridle. Initiated my predetermined action, pulling the reserve. Felt things leave, was stood up and went into the top of the trees during opening. Both main and reserve were spread out over my head in the tree suspending me. IF I had cutaway first I'd be dead. My recommendation is to stop the high speed emergency by pulling your reserve, a handle that can save your life, then deal with two out if necessary. YMMV One procedure to learn is also an acceptable argument. Just be sure to make the decision on the ground, practice it, and execute. No rigging or weighing options in the air. One outlaw instructor used to tell his students transitioning to throw outs to reach back and try to pull it by hand. If you can't, roll over, pull the PC in hand over hand, roll back and pull reserve. He was serious. So am I, DON'T DO THIS!!!I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #18 April 7, 2006 In re: the English gent... is it possible that he was used to SOS gear like what is popular in Europe?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #19 April 7, 2006 Nope, I checked afterwards and the jumpmaster that checked him out before letting him go up checked too. All questions and procedures were answered correctly and quickly. He was used to a two handle system.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #20 April 7, 2006 QuoteI was at the DZ one day when another jumper was showing us how a packer at a large DZ in Florida had packed him a mal via a misrouted bridle (pullout rig). There was no way that his main container was going to open, and the misrouting was not evident from a gear check. Yep, but my point is there is no way to know while in freefall if your bridle was routed correctly. I mean, if you KNEW it was anything but correct, you would not have jumped right? Personally I am a big fan of just pulling the reserve and then being ready to cutaway if I need to. I think that either of the two methods can work or kill you at any given time. That being said each has benefits and drawbacks. I will try and list a few benefits and drawbacks that only apply to each. Pull the reserve. Good things: 1. It is the only handle that will save your life. Stopping the skydive is a good thing. Landing a PC is normally fatal. 2. It is pretty simple and by deploying the reserve first, if things go well, you will be open higher. This gives you time. Bad things. 1. Its not a "one stop shop" for emergency procedures. It gives you Two and that can be bad when you are low and have to make a choice and DO IT now....This can take time. Cutaway and pull the reserve. 1. One stop shop for all emergency procedures. Makes it easy to know what to do...You only have one option. Bad things: 1. It takes time...And many times you don't have the time to spare. Now the question of which is safer....I think its a crap shoot to be honest. Both can save you, or either can kill you. I like the option of just pulling the reserve personally. That way I still have my main, and while yes it could deploy...I can still cut it away if it is clear. And people have survived a double out, but landing a PC is a bad idea. I would talk with an instructor you trust....then check that info against another instructor you trust. The only thing I will say with 100% confidence is that you cannot put any more force on a bridle with your hand than a PC can do. So trying to pull it is a bad idea. Don't try to do rigging in freefall. Pick one of the other two methods and train it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
psychoswooper 2 #21 April 7, 2006 QuoteNewb question here... When a pcit, is it usually just the pin didnt pop out? and in that case, is it possible to reach behind and yank on the bridal to pull the pin? The first PCIT I ever saw, the pin had actually separated from a worn bridle attachment point. In that case, Pulling on the bridle would have no effect other than to waste altitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peckerhead 0 #22 April 8, 2006 This is what I teach; A Pilot chute in tow is a total malfunction. Don't fuck around, get flat, pull your reserve. There is nothing to cut away. An open pilot chute is much stronger than your arm so don't waste time pulling on a mis-routed bridle. If your pilot chute is not cocked then it may not have enough drag to pull the pin. If you reach back and actually manage to get hold of the bridle and open the container then you will have an open container but still no pilot chute. Not good, and you just wasted another 1000 feet or more. If you don't cutaway first and your main deploys after the reserve is open you can deal with it. A two out situation is survivable but you can't land a PCIT. If your main deploys after the reserve is open and it has been released it can foul your reserve. Keep your 3 rings attached until your reserve deploys. At that point you may want to leave them attached for the rest of the ride or you may want to release them depending on the situation but stop the skydive first! Regardless of what you do have a plan and execute it immediately. 2 grand is not the time to decide which method you want to use. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #23 April 8, 2006 I completely agree. I'll take 2 out over 0 out any day of the week... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #24 April 8, 2006 QuoteThen take that same scale and tie a PC to it. Get in your car and on a no wind day stick it out the window, start driving....See how long it takes to reach the same force. Then see how much force you can get before it feels like it is going to rip your arm off....Post the results. WAARNING This should only be attempted by trained professionals. Do not try this at home... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #25 April 8, 2006 QuoteThere are conflicting views out there regarding how to deal with this high speed partial malfunction with a throw away pilot chute. When I got recurrent, and switched over to throw-out rigs, I was taught that a PCIT is a total, not a partial. I still believe that to be the case, and treat it accordingly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites