Ukraine

[JoeWeber 2,299]

1 hour ago, SkyDekker said:

Wonder what market rent is for Ramstein and the transit rights now given for free.

Got me, but previously you suggested that we need a military response in addition to serious, modern thinking sanctions. OK, which Canadian divisions do you think should be forward deployed, where and when?

[brenthutch 383]

13 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

I suspect you are perfect for attacking when told to attack. I am glad you are nowhere near the actual decision.

Ok Neville

[SkyDekker 1,122]

31 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Got me, but previously you suggested that we need a military response in addition to serious, modern thinking sanctions. OK, which Canadian divisions do you think should be forward deployed, where and when?

I’ll leave the determination of exactly which divisions to experts like you. 

But I would certainly expect Canadians to be part of any military intervention. Just like we joined WWII long before Pearl Harbour was attacked. 

[JoeWeber 2,299]

20 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Ok Neville

This isn't the beginning of the end, Rambo. This is the fruit of poor decisions and alliances. We've loved being the only super power for too long, and so have our allies and military. The time is nigh to be smarter against worse circumstances. We didn't protect a pawn with a bishop so we're losing a pawn. Risking a Queen because we're mad is a dumb play.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

3 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

I’ll leave the determination of exactly which divisions to experts like you. 

But I would certainly expect Canadians to be part of any military intervention. Just like we joined WWII long before Pearl Harbour was attacked. 

You made the assertion, not I. If you think military action is required flesh it out with the Canadian response you think is appropriate. See, that's the problem. Easy to say, hard to do.

[airdvr 197]

2 hours ago, ryoder said:

Or if they don't want to fight anymore, offer them a little land in Montana where they can raise rabbits, introduce them to round American women, and give them a pickup truck they can drive from state to state.

Wasn't it a Recreational Vehicle he wanted?

[ryoder 1,384]

41 minutes ago, airdvr said:

Wasn't it a Recreational Vehicle he wanted?

The exact quote was: 

I will live in Montana. And I will marry a round American woman and raise rabbits, and she will cook them for me. And I will have a pickup truck... maybe even a "recreational vehicle." And drive from state to state. Do they let you do that?

[billvon 2,400]

10 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Please don't confuse three talking heads with the conservative position. 

From Facebook, a reply to an anti-war post by Diane Conatser:

"There’s more going on here than it looks when you get Biden on the side of one of the most corrupt country Ukraine ! you know where to start looking keep your eyes wide open we have no business their. NWO Beware!"

There are a significant number of conservatives siding with Russia in this.  To be sure they do not actually support Russia, but their hatred of Biden (and support of Trump) is such that they support anything that makes Biden look bad.  And right now, that includes Putin's actions in Ukraine.  They are not the majority - but they are also not some tiny fringe of extremists either.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

2 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

You made the assertion, not I. If you think military action is required flesh it out with the Canadian response you think is appropriate. See, that's the problem. Easy to say, hard to do.

I made the assertion that I think both are required and therefor I should know which exact division should be sent. 
 

That’s some asinine reasoning. 

[BIGUN 1,053]

7 hours ago, billvon said:

There are a significant number of conservatives siding with Russia in this.  To be sure they do not actually support Russia, but their hatred of Biden (and support of Trump) is such that they support anything that makes Biden look bad.  And right now, that includes Putin's actions in Ukraine.  They are not the majority - but they are also not some tiny fringe of extremists either.

There's dumb shits on both side, Bill.  

[winsor 186]

9 hours ago, brenthutch said:

At some point we will have to grow a pair and punch Putin in the nose.

Spoken like an American with a belief in a 'fair fight,' Marquis of Queensbury and all that.

When dealing with a bear it is useful to note that the biggest Brown will give a Wolverine wide berth.

Why?

Because Wolverines are cranky, fast, and go for the balls.  Even if Yogi prevails, he's likely growling Soprano.

Thus the key is to find out what he really cares about, grab it, and twist hard while looking him in the eye.

I guarantee that there are people who could provide a game plan for doing just that, and someone of presidential caliber would know who to ask.

 

BSBD,

Winsor

[wmw999 2,121]

And in the whack job branch, here’s what I saw on FB:

 

[brenthutch 383]

9 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

This isn't the beginning of the end, Rambo. This is the fruit of poor decisions and alliances. We've loved being the only super power for too long, and so have our allies and military. The time is nigh to be smarter against worse circumstances. We didn't protect a pawn with a bishop so we're losing a pawn. Risking a Queen because we're mad is a dumb play.

Joe, BIGUN is Rambo not me.  I didn’t say “send in the 82nd”, I said to strengthen NATO’s East flank.  It is called deterrence and is the best way to preserve peace.  

Edited February 26, 2022 by brenthutch

[brenthutch 383]

58 minutes ago, winsor said:

Spoken like an American with a belief in a 'fair fight,' Marquis of Queensbury and all that.

 

BSBD,

Winsor

I never said fair.  A punch in the nose may be proceeded by a handful of sand in the eyes and followed with a kick in the balls.

[Phil1111 910]

9 hours ago, billvon said:

From Facebook, a reply to an anti-war post by Diane Conatser:

"There’s more going on here than it looks when you get Biden on the side of one of the most corrupt country Ukraine ! you know where to start looking keep your eyes wide open we have no business their. NWO Beware!"

There are a significant number of conservatives siding with Russia in this.  To be sure they do not actually support Russia, but their hatred of Biden (and support of Trump) is such that they support anything that makes Biden look bad.  And right now, that includes Putin's actions in Ukraine.  They are not the majority - but they are also not some tiny fringe of extremists either.

Don't forget Russian misinformation, trolls, etc. over the last 15 years. Together with white racists and white nationalists.

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

There's dumb shits on both side, Bill.  

Yes and events like this certainly put them in the spotlight.

[brenthutch 383]

2 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Don't forget Russian misinformation, trolls, etc. over the last 15 years. Together with white racists and white nationalists.

And the KKK, the Illuminati and little green men….they are everywhere 

[BIGUN 1,053]

1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

Joe, BIGUN is Rambo not me.

Way to shift the limelight, big boy.

 

1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

I said to strengthen NATO’s East flank

General Hodges proposed this three years ago at CEPA. You're late to the party and it's a little late now.  

1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

It is called deterrence and is the best way to preserve peace.  

Except that history is abound with failure when deterrence was used as a strategy. 

 

58 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

proceeded by a handful of sand in the eyes and followed with a kick in the balls.

You fight like a girl.

Sincerely,

Rambo 

 

[brenthutch 383]

10 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Except that history is abound with failure when deterrence was used as a strategy. 

 

Yup, M.A.D. was a complete failure.

[Phil1111 910]

49 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

And the KKK, the Illuminati and little green men….they are everywhere 

With you of course its difficult to ascertain how deep the thinking is.

Confronting Russia’s Role in Transnational White Supremacist Extremism

How Russia surpassed Germany to become the racist ideal for Trump-loving white supremacists

White Nationalism in the United States and Russia: Transnational Ties, Domestic Impact

[JoeWeber 2,299]

8 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

I made the assertion that I think both are required and therefor I should know which exact division should be sent. 
 

That’s some asinine reasoning. 

Instead of a personal attack, better than nothing I guess, you might have honestly said you don't know which divisions you want another country to send.

[BIGUN 1,053]

33 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Yup, M.A.D. was a complete failure.

Dissuasion and deterrence are in the rear-view mirror. Compellence is the forward view.  

[Phil1111 910]

6 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Instead of a personal attack, better than nothing I guess, you might have honestly said you don't know which divisions you want another country to send.

Bigun's frustrations with this war is equal to many who understand what war means. SC deals mainly with politics and "War is the continuation of politics by other means.". Is likely the most famous concept of the link between Realpolitik and naked aggression.

I abhor the idea of sending young people in harms way for useless political ideals. I'd agree you're on point for the anti-Americanism voiced by SkyDekker on occasion.

I could point out that  "On December 5, 1994 the leaders of Ukraine, Russia, Britain and the United States signed a memorandum to provide Ukraine with security assurances in connection with its accession to the NPT as a non-nuclear weapon state" Whereby Ukraine gave up about 1700 nuclear weapons together with the delivery systems to place those weapons in every capital of the world. But that's moot.

With the exceptions of the Baltic states. Nobody has done more to defend Ukraine in the latest aggression from Russia than the US. By supplying it with lethal aid. Needless to say Russia would never have invaded Ukraine in 2014 had they possessed those 1700 warheads. Furthermore the UK has been noticeably absent from its signing obligations attached to the Budapest Memorandum.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

39 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Instead of a personal attack, better than nothing I guess, you might have honestly said you don't know which divisions you want another country to send.

Which of course has nothing to do with the points raised. 

[JoeWeber 2,299]

3 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Bigun's frustrations with this war is equal to many who understand what war means. SC deals mainly with politics and "War is the continuation of politics by other means.". Is likely the most famous concept of the link between Realpolitik and naked aggression.

I abhor the idea of sending young people in harms way for useless political ideals. I'd agree you're on point for the anti-Americanism voiced by SkyDekker on occasion.

I could point out that  "On December 5, 1994 the leaders of Ukraine, Russia, Britain and the United States signed a memorandum to provide Ukraine with security assurances in connection with its accession to the NPT as a non-nuclear weapon state" Whereby Ukraine gave up about 1700 nuclear weapons together with the delivery systems to place those weapons in every capital of the world. But that's moot.

With the exceptions of the Baltic states. Nobody has done more to defend Ukraine in the latest aggression from Russia than the US. By supplying it with lethal aid. Needless to say Russia would never have invaded Ukraine in 2014 had they possessed those 1700 warheads. Furthermore the UK has been noticeably absent from its signing obligations attached to the Budapest Memorandum.

The nukes may or may not have deterred Putin. I suspect strongly that a few Nato divisions, including Americans, sprinkled along the borders would have kept his aspirations checked. But they weren't and now is too late. The Europeans need to show some strength now, not only military strength but strength of will. Every European Parliament should this moment be discussing significant defense budget increases. Nord Stream 2 should be disabled at least semi-permanently. Any and everything they can do to telegraph they are serious about their own defense and energy independence, including nuclear, should be under discussion. They might even consider kicking the Russians off of the SWIFT network as a reminder that without global payments there is limited global trade.

Not only might it deter Russia from future aggression it might also give the Chinese reason to wait a few more decades for their turn.

But they won't, is my guess. It's like with the Swiss. They are rich. But they don't invest even in their own Air Force. Why? Well, they reason that by the time they'd need to use it all of their allies would be overrun so whats the point?

[JoeWeber 2,299]

4 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Which of course has nothing to do with the points raised. 

I'll make it easier for you: the world is full of paper tigers who are happy to advocate military response but are utterly clueless about who, what, where, why or how it can be accomplished or have any certainty that it wouldn't cause more harm than help. It sure sounds bold, though.