Ukraine

[BIGUN 1,053]

2 hours ago, billvon said:

Well, I mean, that's no more absurd that Putin invading Ukraine to "de-Nazify" it.

That was the point, Bill. It was absurd. 

 

2 hours ago, billvon said:

At this point he's probably going to have to.  The world has turned solidly against him, and if he attacks (say) Belarus or Romania, he's going to see a coordinated worldwide response.

How about stopping the murder of children and civilians in the Ukraine now and any further expansion. 

[jakee 1,255]

2 hours ago, billvon said:

At the beginning of World War II, the German air force was vastly superior to Britain's.  Better pilots, better training, better aircraft - the Brits were still using cloth covered biplanes for some missions.

Fortunately the allies realized this - and they got to work.  The US supplied massive amounts of raw materials and actual aircraft/pilots to England, and started targeting Germany's industry rather than its military (or civilian) facilities.  Thus, there would be an air battle, and Germany would shoot down 200 British aircraft while the Brits would shoot down 10.  But by the next week, the Brits would have 200 more aircraft, and the Germans found it hard to replace those 10 due to a shortage of ball bearings due to a destroyed factory.

This literally never happened. I genuinely think you have confused Britain with Russia.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

20 minutes ago, billvon said:

I wonder what sort of energy you'd need to set off their reactive armor?  I mean, it shouldn't damage the tank but I bet it makes a hell of a racket - and destroys the armor.

I'm not sure, but since it's an explosive, it needs to be detonated.

A bit of quick reading seems to show that they are intended to foil shaped charge warheads and kinetic energy projectiles.
Both of those have quite a lot of energy when they hit. The shaped charge warhead is an explosive (duh) and would be expected to detonate the explosive armor. The kinetic energy 'darts' likely hit hard enough, in a small enough spot, to detonate the armor.
I doubt that small arms fire (rifle or machine gun) would be enough.

And, to continue the oligarch discussion, I don't think Putin would be able to arrest their families.
Most of the families are elsewhere.

And those oligarchs aren't 'just billionaires'. Don't think of Warren Buffet or Bill Gates. Think Pablo Escobar.
They're hardcore, vicious, ruthless, smart and tough.
They've survived one of the harshest 'business' climates in recent history.
They fighting (including actual combat) that went along with acquiring the assets they have now means that the ones that are still around are tough and smart. 
Some of them have their own private armies.

They are as much 'mafia' as 'businessmen'. 
And don't forget about the actual Russian Mafia. They operate with Putin's approval, but again, if they gang up on him, Putin will have a hell of a fight on his hands.

I don't think any one of them can stand up to Putin and win (the one who did, Mikhail Khodorkovsky, lost big time).

But if all of them get together, I don't know if Putin can stop them. 


 

[BIGUN 1,053]

6 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

I doubt that small arms fire (rifle or machine gun) would be enough.

High Explosive Anti-tank rounds (HEAT) or a Warthog from above. 

[JoeWeber 2,299]

14 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

That was the point, Bill. It was absurd. 

 

How about stopping the murder of children and civilians in the Ukraine now and any further expansion. 

Let's not forget that Putin wears the crucifix and his mother is devoutly catholic. Let's also not ignore the bond between Putin's desires and the evangelical right in America. Let's also not ignore the power of Christianity in our own armed forces. And, whether we be believers or not, let none of us discount reactively the influence of religion in world conflicts. And that specifically includes the wanton and indiscriminate murder of innocent children.

[BIGUN 1,053]

4 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Let's not forget that Putin wears the crucifix and his mother is devoutly catholic. Let's also not ignore the bond between Putin's desires and the evangelical right in America. Let's also not ignore the power of Christianity in our own armed forces. And, whether we be believers or not, let none of us discount reactively the influence of religion in world conflicts. And that specifically includes the wanton and indiscriminate murder of innocent children.

You're right. Fuck Ukraine. 

[JoeWeber 2,299]

7 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

You're right. Fuck Ukraine. 

Ukraine is a small part of the equation. The situation there only tells us that we failed in advance. Now, like it or not, the best world result is to make it a cauldron of Russian defeat without involving any other nation. Fewer people will die, including children. Sad but true.

Edited March 6, 2022 by JoeWeber

[billvon 2,400]

1 hour ago, jakee said:

This literally never happened. I genuinely think you have confused Britain with Russia.

From the book Combat Biplanes of World War II:

The era of the combat biplane is usually thought to have been between 1914 and 1938. By the outbreak of World War II, most of the advanced air forces of the world had moved on to monoplane aircraft for their front-line battle forces, both in bomber and fighter capacities. Yet despite this, many biplanes did still survive, both in front-line service and in numerous subsidiary roles, and not just as training machines but as fully operational warplanes. Thus in 1939 the majority of major European powers still retained some, albeit few, biplane aircraft. Sadly, and as an indictment of failed British Government defense policies, it was Great Britain who still had the bulk of such obsolescent combat aircraft, machines like the Gladiator, Swordfish, Walrus, Vildebeeste and Audax for example, while the inferior Albacore, meant to replace the Swordfish, was still yet to enter service!
======================

From the Wiki on the British Purchasing Commission, the British organization tasked with acquiring materiel for the war:

Facing an aeroplane shortage during the early stages of World War II, in January 1940, the British government established the British Direct Purchase Commission to purchase US planes that would help supplement domestic plane production. By December 1940 British cash orders for aircraft had exceeded $1,200,000,000 with deliveries of 300-350 per month and were expected to reach 500 per month by "early in 1941".[1] The aircraft were supplied unarmed.
=================================

From War History Online:

Blackburn Botha – Great Britain

As a reconnaissance plane/torpedo bomber, Botha had quite a long list of drawbacks. It had a very small cockpit and no rear facing windows, which was very unusual for a reconnaissance plane. As a bomber, the aircraft was very slow with a maximum speed of 249 mph. It was also very unsteady and difficult to control due to a heavy and unstable airframe.

After it was confirmed as unreliable, Botha was withdrawn from service without a single torpedo being dropped. The aircraft was relegated to a training role where it suffered a series of accidents. Almost one-third of all training aircraft ended up crashing until it was finally retired in 1944.
==============================

From a 1993 report by the Army on World War II logistics:

The combat forces won the war by providing the guts, manpower, and skills with which our superior weight in materiel was applied in destroying the enemy. Our cause would have been lost without the magnificent logistic support by our entire nation. Logistics provided the tools with which our air, ground, and sea forces fashioned victory.

[billeisele 122]

Fairly large list of equipment has already arrived and more on the way. Apparently there is an airport in Poland near Urkraine where the large planes are landing and equipment is off loaded for ground transport.  There are reports that 60K+ Urkrainian men have returned to fight and people from other countries are traveling there.

UK Jan17 & Feb 23 - self-defense weapons and training, more equipment

US Feb 26 - $350 million in weapons - Javelin anti-tank weapons, anti-aircraft systems, ammunition, and body armor, and more.

Belgium Feb 26 - 2,000 machine guns to the Ukrainian army and 3,800 tons of fuel

Netherlands Feb 26 - 50 Panzerfaust 3 anti-tank weapons with 400 missiles, 200 Stinger anti-aircraft missiles, helmets, shard vests, and sniper rifles

Germany Feb 26 - 1,000 anti-tank weapons and 500 Stinger missiles

France Feb 26 - defensive military equipment

Czech Republic Feb 26 - 4,000 artillery shells, machine guns, submachine guns, assault rifles, and pistols with ammunition

Portugal Feb 26 - vests, night vision goggles, grenades, ammunition, complete portable radios, analog repeaters, and automatic G3 rifles.

Canada Feb 27 - $25 million in military aid

 

Greece Feb 27 - 2 C-130's of defense equipment and medical supplies, and 70,000 combat ration packages.

Romania Feb 27 - no specific details - ammunition and military equipment

Sweden Feb 28 - 5,000 anti-tank weapons, 135,000 field rations, 5,000 helmets, and 5,000 pieces of body armor

Italy Feb 28 - Stinger missiles, mortars, and MILAN or Panzerfaust anti-tank weapons, Browning heavy machine guns, MG-type light machine guns, and counter-IED systems.

Finland - Feb 28 - 2,500 assault rifles, 150,000 cartridges, 1,500 single-shot anti-tank weapon

Spain March 2 - 1,370 anti-tank grenade launchers, 700,000 rifles, and machine-gun rounds and light machine guns.

Richard Childress and AMMO Inc have sent 1 million AK-47 rounds, it's in route. Suspect hat more will be sent. They have individuals and corporations offering to donate.

 

 

[Phil1111 911]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

From the book Combat Biplanes of World War II:

The combat forces won the war by providing the guts, manpower, and skills with which our superior weight in materiel was applied in destroying the enemy. Our cause would have been lost without the magnificent logistic support by our entire nation. Logistics provided the tools with which our air, ground, and sea forces fashioned victory.

Above is true but your earlier post had some factual errors. The swordfish did have an active role as a torpedo bomber and played a major role in the sinking of the Bismark They  damaged the rudder of the Bismark.Together with a few other German ships during WW2. The French,Italians, Russians and British all had biplanes but only the Russians lost more than a handful. Britain withdrew its bi-planes from any fighting almost immediately(see below). As the RAF had already seen the results of German use of the 109 in Spain.

"Hurricane " 6th November 1935 first flight of original variant, A total of 1,715 Hawker Hurricanes flew with Fighter Command during the period of the Battle of Britain, far in excess of all other British fighters combined. It is estimated that Hawker Hurricane pilots were credited with four fifths of all enemy aircraft destroyed in that critical period from July to October 1940."

"The only British biplane fighter in operational service was the Gloster Gladiator which equipped No. 247 Squadron RAF, stationed in RAF Robourgh, Devon. Although no combat sorties took place at the height of the aerial battles, No. 247 Gladiators intercepted a He 111 in late October 1940, without result. No. 239 Squadron RAF using Gladiators in an army cooperation role and No. 804 Squadron, Fleet Air Arm outfitted with Sea Gladiators were also operational during the Battle of Britain.^[67]"

[JoeWeber 2,299]

1 hour ago, billeisele said:

Fairly large list of equipment has already arrived and more on the way. Apparently there is an airport in Poland near Urkraine where the large planes are landing and equipment is off loaded for ground transport.  There are reports that 60K+ Urkrainian men have returned to fight and people from other countries are traveling there.

UK Jan17 & Feb 23 - self-defense weapons and training, more equipment

US Feb 26 - $350 million in weapons - Javelin anti-tank weapons, anti-aircraft systems, ammunition, and body armor, and more.

Belgium Feb 26 - 2,000 machine guns to the Ukrainian army and 3,800 tons of fuel

Netherlands Feb 26 - 50 Panzerfaust 3 anti-tank weapons with 400 missiles, 200 Stinger anti-aircraft missiles, helmets, shard vests, and sniper rifles

Germany Feb 26 - 1,000 anti-tank weapons and 500 Stinger missiles

France Feb 26 - defensive military equipment

Czech Republic Feb 26 - 4,000 artillery shells, machine guns, submachine guns, assault rifles, and pistols with ammunition

Portugal Feb 26 - vests, night vision goggles, grenades, ammunition, complete portable radios, analog repeaters, and automatic G3 rifles.

Canada Feb 27 - $25 million in military aid

 

Greece Feb 27 - 2 C-130's of defense equipment and medical supplies, and 70,000 combat ration packages.

Romania Feb 27 - no specific details - ammunition and military equipment

Sweden Feb 28 - 5,000 anti-tank weapons, 135,000 field rations, 5,000 helmets, and 5,000 pieces of body armor

Italy Feb 28 - Stinger missiles, mortars, and MILAN or Panzerfaust anti-tank weapons, Browning heavy machine guns, MG-type light machine guns, and counter-IED systems.

Finland - Feb 28 - 2,500 assault rifles, 150,000 cartridges, 1,500 single-shot anti-tank weapon

Spain March 2 - 1,370 anti-tank grenade launchers, 700,000 rifles, and machine-gun rounds and light machine guns.

Richard Childress and AMMO Inc have sent 1 million AK-47 rounds, it's in route. Suspect hat more will be sent. They have individuals and corporations offering to donate.

 

 

Now let's stay smart. Let's make the border area from Poland and Slovakia into Ukraine wide and as safe as possible and keep pumping weapons and material into Ukraine. We cannot win this thing but the Russians can certainly lose this thing. We were driven out of Vietnam by imagery. Let's give the people of Russia a taste of what losing looks like.

[Phil1111 911]

2 hours ago, billeisele said:

Fairly large list of equipment has already arrived and more on the way.

There was news footage today of Ukrainian troops with two stingers and two Javelin anti-tank weapons. Standing in a group of about 10 all about 20 meters from each other. They all seemed to be quite alert so the enemy must have been nearby.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

1 minute ago, Phil1111 said:

There was news footage today of Ukrainian troops with two stingers and two Javelin anti-tank weapons. Standing in a group of about 10 all about 20 meters from each other. They all seemed to be quite alert so the enemy must have been nearby.

Maybe real, maybe not but the Ukrainians are owning the news cycle. 

[Phil1111 911]

2 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

... Let's give the people of Russia a taste of what losing looks like.

I love your quirky sense of humor. Putin was introduced to the Russian people in 2000. Isn't 22 years of continuous losing enough? Imagine 22 years of trump type "winning".

[JoeWeber 2,299]

1 minute ago, Phil1111 said:

I love your quirky sense of humor. Putin was introduced to the Russian people in 2000. Isn't 22 years of continuous losing enough? Imagine 22 years of trump type "winning".

Ignore the Oligarchs, Putin built a middle class in Russia. But just like the middle class everywhere if you take away their ease they revolt. That's the soft underbelly this time around.

[Phil1111 911]

3 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Maybe real, maybe not but the Ukrainians are owning the news cycle. 

The image of winning: Russian convoy blitzed near Kyiv by Ukrainian troops 'armed with Brit anti-tank weapons'

[Phil1111 911]

3 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Ignore the Oligarchs, Putin built a middle class in Russia. But just like the middle class everywhere if you take away their ease they revolt. That's the soft underbelly this time around.

111 people control 19 percent of all household wealth in Russia "the analysis suggests that 83 percent of the population has less than $10,000 in personal wealth....The average middle-class Russian earns between $4,000 and $10,000 per year, according to a 2012 Forbes analysis of data from Rosstat, the nation’s statistics bureau"

 

 

[Phil1111 911]

Russian conscripts:

Conscripts receive a stipend of 2,000 rubles (US$17.77) compared to the basic 62,000 (US$551) salary of regular or contract soldiers

So much money for the glory of fighting for Putin. Is it any wonder that they punch holes in the fuel tanks of their vehicles to escape the war!

Edited March 7, 2022 by Phil1111

[JoeWeber 2,299]

56 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

111 people control 19 percent of all household wealth in Russia "the analysis suggests that 83 percent of the population has less than $10,000 in personal wealth....The average middle-class Russian earns between $4,000 and $10,000 per year, according to a 2012 Forbes analysis of data from Rosstat, the nation’s statistics bureau"

 

 

Things change a lot and a decade is a long time, sometimes. I don't have any first hand information on what it is like to be Russian Middle Class in 2022. My understanding is that it's a real thing. What I can state with some confidence is that in some countries that are ruled, um differently, international sanctions have made taking money out a bit more difficult at the lower levels. I have a deal in play in Venezuela for example. Everyone involved is straight up and serious. Because I'll need to go there sooner than later I've been trying to make sense of things on the ground. Looks to me like stores are stocked and things are very different than the picture Brent was painting a bit ago. Yes, money remains concentrated in a smaller percentage of people than logic says makes sense. But, it looks to me like Venezuelans are investing in Venezuela instead of just looking for a way to expatriate funds. I guess, without evidence, that was going on in Russia, too.

[jakee 1,255]

6 hours ago, billvon said:

From the book Combat Biplanes of World War II:

I know. But if you think we were losing aircraft to the Luftwaffe at a rate of 200 to 10 - especially in one day - you’re tripping balls. Again, pretty sure you’re getting confused with the Eastern front.

[metalslug 31]

9 hours ago, billeisele said:

Spain March 2 - 1,370 anti-tank grenade launchers, 700,000 rifles, and machine-gun rounds and light machine guns.

I did a 'double-take' when I read that and had to look it up. As suspected, there's a misplaced comma in there, possibly lost in translation;

"Spanish Defense Minister said that it will send 1,370 anti-tank grenade launchers, 700,000 rifles and machine-gun rounds in the first shipment"

That's 700000 ammo for rifles and MGs, not 700k rifles. Still useful though. Thank you, Spain.

[olofscience 421]

7 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Let's give the people of Russia a taste of what losing looks like.

With Russia closing down western news, independent news, Facebook and Twitter, they won't see any signs of losing for a while. (militarily, at least)

[brenthutch 383]

13 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Actually, it was his idea from March 3rd that you posted on March 4th. You also fail to mention that there were six points AND he said then that it needed to be done in the next 24 hours. 

 https://cepa.org/six-ways-to-help-ukraine-survive-right-now/

I didn’t know about his view on the matter until I saw it on the morning shows on Sunday.  If I actually did copy him I imagine I would have done a better job.  My inspiration was the Yom Kippur war of ‘73. 
BTW I never was advocating for that I just said it was possible without thousands of troops and hundreds of planes, in response to SkyDekker’s post. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by brenthutch

[kallend 1,623]

15 hours ago, billvon said:

And it's also what wins wars.

At the beginning of World War II, the German air force was vastly superior to Britain's.  Better pilots, better training, better aircraft - the Brits were still using cloth covered biplanes for some missions.

 

It should also be pointed out that, even later in the war, British aircraft sucked.  After World War II the fields of France were littered with Spitfires and Hurricanes that would take off on their first mission, have an engine failure or catch on fire, and land (and be abandoned) in France. 

It was a cloth covered biplane that crippled the battleship Bismarck leading to its being sunk.

It was cloth covered biplanes that crippled the Italian fleet at Taranto.  The cloth covered biplane Fairey Swordfish sank a greater tonnage of Axis shipping than any other Allied aircraft during  WW2.

And if the Merlin engine in Spitfires and Hurricanes were so poor, why did the US choose it to replace the Allison V-1710 in the P-51, and withdraw V-1710 powered P-38s from escort duties due to engine problems on long range missions over Germany?

[JoeWeber 2,299]

2 hours ago, olofscience said:

With Russia closing down western news, independent news, Facebook and Twitter, they won't see any signs of losing for a while. (militarily, at least)

Maybe. I spent a month in Myanmar, I think 2003 but who knows. Information in was tightly controlled. The kids figured out the work arounds and got me spooled up. There were underground internet shops, etc. I reckon the Russian kids, with Elons help, will figure out something.