Ukraine

[jakee 1,255]

1 hour ago, Slim King said:

Put that in context....

Yeah, the context that you continually defend Putin's ongoing occupation of Ukraine despite being fully aware of the horrendous war crimes his forces commit as a matter of policy.

[piisfish 135]

On 8/23/2023 at 7:37 PM, normiss said:

The windows from which Putin's opponents fall are getting much higher.

Wagner chief Yevgeny Prigozhin falls from the sky.

Putin is kind of funny. He just declared that some people on the plane were either drunk or high, and set off a hand grenade.

[olofscience 421]

6 minutes ago, Slim King said:

In no way do I defend War Crimes... In fact I DETEST WAR AND MURDER!!!!

You didn't defend CALLING for war crimes to be committed.

If you really detested war and murder, you should be calling for Russia to withdraw from Ukraine. But you're a russian stooge, so you won't.

[olofscience 421]

4 minutes ago, Slim King said:

Then I think fair elections is the second.

The Russian Army withdrawing from Ukraine is the second. Fair elections is the 3rd.

 

Or are you implying they should have elections at gunpoint?

[jakee 1,255]

36 minutes ago, Slim King said:

I'm calling for a CEASE FIRE... Like any person with a soul would. That's the first step ... Then I think fair elections is the second. Stop the killing and let the people decide. Not YOU and not BIDEN... Let the people decide their own fate.

You’re calling for a ceasefire because you know that’s the only way for Russia to hold on to the territory it has seized in its ruthless war of aggression against Ukraine - and that’s what you want. You want Russia to come away with a win, despite knowing all about the horrendous war crimes it continues to commit against the people living in the land it has taken by force.

The fact that you think there could be free elections under Russian military rule (even if they hadn’t chased away or arrested, tortured and murder any Ukrainian political opponents) just shows your total cluelessness. There aren’t any free elections in Russia, let alone in Russian war zones.

40 minutes ago, Slim King said:

Did you learn NOTHING from Viet Nam?

You clearly haven’t. Ukraine is Russia’s Vietnam, yet for some reason you think they can get away with staying in the war zone forever.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

53 minutes ago, jakee said:

Ukraine is Russia’s Vietnam, yet for some reason you think they can get away with staying in the war zone forever.

2nd Viet Nam. 

Maybe 3rd.

And you're absolutely right.

Slim keeps calling for 'negotiations' and 'peace talks', but has yet to call for Russia to leave Ukraine.

All that has to happen to end the war is for the Russians to stop shooting, pick up their stuff (their stuff, not all the things they stole) and start walking east.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

4 hours ago, Slim King said:

Then I think fair elections is the second.

You believe the US elections are not fair, but that war torn Ukraine can host fair elections.

 

[SkyDekker 1,122]

4 minutes ago, Slim King said:

I'll bet each and every one of you it will end like this. There will be a Cease Fire and then Negotiations.... You should have done it a year and a half ago.

Yup, that is how most wars end, brilliant insight!

[wmw999 2,122]

4 minutes ago, Slim King said:

I'll bet each and every one of you it will end like this. There will be a Cease Fire and then Negotiations.... You should have done it a year and a half ago.

On whose terms? There are always cease fires and negotiations — even at the end of WW2 with Japan. But those were rather different depending on who you might have supported  

Wendy P. 

[jakee 1,255]

16 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

You believe the US elections are not fair, but that war torn Ukraine can host fair elections.

 

Ahem - that Russian occupying forces in Ukraine can hold fair elections. I bet if you asked he’d say Zelensky took power through election fraud, y’know just because.

 

But we all know what Russian elections in Ukraine look like because we’ve seen them. Poll workers going door to door accompanied by armed soldiers. Who are you going to vote for when a man with a Kalashnikov is in your house watching you do it?

[jakee 1,255]

8 minutes ago, Slim King said:

I'll bet each and every one of you it will end like this. There will be a Cease Fire and then Negotiations....

But not with the permanent Russian occupation you so desire. They’ve already lost their base in Sevastopol, how long until they lose the Kerch bridge and all of Crimea?

[billvon 2,400]

1 hour ago, jakee said:

But not with the permanent Russian occupation you so desire. They’ve already lost their base in Sevastopol, how long until they lose the Kerch bridge and all of Crimea?

Maybe that's the end game.  Ukraine takes Crimea and moves in to Anapa - and THEN offers a ceasefire.  With concessions of course.

[ryoder 1,384]

Nice shooting by Vlad's goons.

Russia Shoots Down Its Own Su-35 Jet for Second Time Within Days: Reports

[JoeWeber 2,299]

21 hours ago, billvon said:

Maybe that's the end game.  Ukraine takes Crimea and moves in to Anapa - and THEN offers a ceasefire.  With concessions of course.

Sound about right. And BJ Worth will do the negotiations.

[jakee 1,255]

2 hours ago, ryoder said:

Nice shooting by Vlad's goons.

Russia Shoots Down Its Own Su-35 Jet for Second Time Within Days: Reports

The successful Sevastopol attacks have dented the reputations of the Russian SAM systems - so they probably wanted to reassure the export market that they’re still dangerous.

[Phil1111 911]

22 hours ago, ryoder said:

Nice shooting by Vlad's goons.

Russia Shoots Down Its Own Su-35 Jet for Second Time Within Days: Reports

It was reported to Putin that the battery successfully shot down a Ukrainian F-16 so all is good in the Russian empire.

[billvon 2,400]

Yesterday Russia lost 34 tanks, 91 APVs and 18 artillery pieces .

During World War II, the Germans and Japanese had better aircraft, better pilots, better tacticians, better armor and better-trained troops.  And militarily they were terrifyingly effective.

But every aerial engagement where a German force would shoot down 15 Allied aircraft and lose only 2 aircraft themselves, the next day the Allies would launch another 15, fresh from the factory.  And the Germans couldn't replace those 2 because the Allies were targeting their infrastructure - rubber plants, ball bearing plants, refineries.  Eventually they couldn't keep up with our ability to manufacture and stage munitions.   And in the end it led to their downfall.

Let's hope something similar happens here.

 

 

[JoeWeber 2,299]

8 hours ago, billvon said:

Yesterday Russia lost 34 tanks, 91 APVs and 18 artillery pieces .

During World War II, the Germans and Japanese had better aircraft, better pilots, better tacticians, better armor and better-trained troops.  And militarily they were terrifyingly effective.

But every aerial engagement where a German force would shoot down 15 Allied aircraft and lose only 2 aircraft themselves, the next day the Allies would launch another 15, fresh from the factory.  And the Germans couldn't replace those 2 because the Allies were targeting their infrastructure - rubber plants, ball bearing plants, refineries.  Eventually they couldn't keep up with our ability to manufacture and stage munitions.   And in the end it led to their downfall.

Let's hope something similar happens here.

 

 

Certainly that's the idea. But in WWII the US had the will to prevail and mobilized our economy to make it happen. We also did not have MTG or Trump to fuck up the program.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

6 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Certainly that's the idea. But in WWII the US had the will to prevail and mobilized our economy to make it happen. We also did not have MTG or Trump to fuck up the program.

Also  it didn't cost 100 million dollars to produce one airplane.

[Phil1111 911]

2 hours ago, GeorgiaDon said:

Also  it didn't cost 100 million dollars to produce one airplane.

Keep in mind that that one plane could have dropped a precision guided munition right to the heart of the Fuhrer-bunker. Could have taken out the Schweinfurt ball bearing works that took multiple mass raids with the loss of hundreds and hundreds of men.

[kallend 1,623]

17 hours ago, billvon said:

 

During World War II, the Germans and Japanese had better aircraft, better pilots, better tacticians, better armor and better-trained troops.  And militarily they were terrifyingly effective.

B 

 

Certainly not true in 1940.  The RAF lost 1,023 from Fighter Command  and 148 from Coastal Command. German losses were  1,887

RAF had a far superior system for collating information from radar and ground observers, and disseminating it to the squadrons.

 And this is from Adolf Galland's book “Die Ersten und die Letzte” (or The First and the Last).

"The theme of fighter protection was chewed over again and again. Göring clearly represented the point of view of the bombers and demanded close and rigid protection. The bomber, he said, was more important than record bag figures. I tried to point out that the Bf 109 was superior in the attack and not so suitable for purely defensive purposes as the Spitfire, which, although a little slower, was much more maneuverable. He rejected my objection. We received many more harsh words. Finally, as his time ran short, he grew more amiable and asked what were the requirements for our squadrons. Mölders asked for a series of Bf 109's with more powerful engines. The request was granted. “And you ?” Göring turned to me. I did not hesitate long. “I should like an outfit of Spitfires for my group.” 

 

[Phil1111 911]

17 hours ago, billvon said:

Yesterday Russia lost 34 tanks, 91 APVs and 18 artillery pieces .

During World War II, the Germans and Japanese had better aircraft, better pilots, better tacticians, better armor and better-trained troops.  And militarily they were terrifyingly effective.

But every aerial engagement where a German force would shoot down 15 Allied aircraft and lose only 2 aircraft themselves, the next day the Allies would launch another 15, fresh from the factory.  And the Germans couldn't replace those 2 because the Allies were targeting their infrastructure - rubber plants, ball bearing plants, refineries.  Eventually they couldn't keep up with our ability to manufacture and stage munitions.   And in the end it led to their downfall.

Let's hope something similar happens here.

 

 

Prior to the start of Russian involvement in WW2 Stalin cleansed the military of most competent officers and replaced them with commissars. Today Putin has allowed corruption and complacency to do the same. Russians don't seem to learn and be it equipment or manpower. The modus operandi seems to be let quantity and not quality lead the way. Reports seem to indicate older and less armor in every sector on the front.

At the same time it appears as if Ukraine will have F-16s this winter-spring before any breakthrough to the Sea of Azov. Ukraine is loosing the worldwide publicity-awareness battle to the Israel situation.

2 minutes ago, kallend said:

Certainly not true in 1940.  The RAF lost 1,023 from Fighter Command  and 148 from Coastal Command. German losses were  1,887

RAF had a far superior system for collating information from radar and ground observers, and disseminating it to the squadrons.

 And this is from Adolf Galland's book “Die Ersten und die Letzte” (or The First and the Last).

"The theme of fighter protection was chewed over again and again. Göring clearly represented the point of view of the bombers and demanded close and rigid protection. The bomber, he said, was more important than record bag figures. I tried to point out that the Bf 109 was superior in the attack and not so suitable for purely defensive purposes as the Spitfire, which, although a little slower, was much more maneuverable. He rejected my objection. We received many more harsh words. Finally, as his time ran short, he grew more amiable and asked what were the requirements for our squadrons. Mölders asked for a series of Bf 109's with more powerful engines. The request was granted. “And you ?” Göring turned to me. I did not hesitate long. “I should like an outfit of Spitfires for my group.” 

 

Well there was the Me-262. The ME-109 never introduced a retractable tail-wheel during its entire production run of 34,000 aircraft.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

3 hours ago, GeorgiaDon said:

Also  it didn't cost 100 million dollars to produce one airplane.

Now it costs a $1000 to produce a drone that can take out that $100 Million airplane or $6 Million Tank etc. Once we get those oft promised robot soldiers anyone with a few bucks can be a war lord. 

[kallend 1,623]

3 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

 

Well there was the Me-262. The ME-109 never introduced a retractable tail-wheel during its entire production run of 34,000 aircraft.

Not until 1944, and too little too late.  The engines only lasted 35 hours.  Hitler threw away their tactical advantage by insisting they be used as fighter bombers rather than interceptors at first, throwing way their main advantage.

[billvon 2,400]

33 minutes ago, kallend said:

Not until 1944, and too little too late.  The engines only lasted 35 hours.  Hitler threw away their tactical advantage by insisting they be used as fighter bombers rather than interceptors at first, throwing way their main advantage.

Yep.  One of Germany's big needs were interceptors that could get to 30,000 feet before the Allied bombers got out of range.

And in terms of a mistake in the other direction, the Lancaster bomber saw fairly heavy losses during the war, mainly due to being intercepted on the way _back_ from bombing missions (after German fighters had time to climb to their altitude.)  The solution to this was more guns.

An undergrad by the name of Freeman Dyson pointed out that if you got rid of the top and bottom turrets (and their crew and guns and ammunition and oxygen etc etc) you could increase the top speed of the aircraft by 50mph - and give it far more range.  This would have allowed it to outrun most interceptors, and additionally you'd lose fewer crew if one of them WAS shot down.  And it would have allowed retreat to more distant airfields, taking more circuitous routes.  

However this was contrary to the spirit of the times, which was that bombers were flying fortresses, one for all and all for one, a brave aircrew defending their craft with the best guns they could get.  So it didn't happen.