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SivaGanesha

for which crimes, if any, should Trump be prosecuted?

should Trump be prosecuted and, if so, for which crimes?  

21 members have voted

  1. 1. for which crimes, if any, should Trump be prosecuted after he leaves office?

    • crimes connected with his official duties as President
      3
    • business crimes related to his private activities in the Trump Organization
      11
    • personal crimes -- i.e. the sexual assault of women
      4
    • in the interests of healing the country, Trump should not be prosecuted
      2
    • Trump should not be prosecuted because I believe he is innocent of wrongdoing
      1


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Note that multiple responses are not allowed. Trump, like anyone else, can only physically be sent to one prison at a time. There is a lot of talk of prosecuting him after he leaves office. However, he has been accused of multiple instances of different types of crimes--crimes against the country as President as well as both private business and personal crimes. At some point a decision will need to made as to which type of crime to focus on first.

 

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In loose order of what appears to have the the most plausible evidence/case so far:

* Obstruction of justice, as confirmed by Mueller.

* Tax fraud/evasion. This could play out for a very long while, so maybe not ideal. There do appear to be some extremely cut and dry no-no's in the returns that were leaked though.

* Defamation case w/ E Jean Carroll.

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8 minutes ago, mistercwood said:

In loose order of what appears to have the the most plausible evidence/case so far:

Should be plenty of evidence to turn him from an unindicted co-conspirator to an indicted co-conspirator in the Cohen case.

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Ideally he would be charged, convicted - and pardoned.  Make sure that his guilt is proven in case he tries to pull some "I really didn't lose the election" nonsense in two years, then pardon him so his supporters don't decide that he's their martyr.

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2 minutes ago, billvon said:

Ideally he would be charged, convicted - and pardoned.  Make sure that his guilt is proven in case he tries to pull some "I really didn't lose the election" nonsense in two years, then pardon him so his supporters don't decide that he's their martyr.

Glen Kirchner makes a pretty strong case that he can be charged with 2nd degree murder in the case of 250000 Americans who died of covid on his watch. He clearly fulfils the 3 criteria necessary for indictments in the deaths of every single individual. And could be charged for every single one of them.

No pardons. So what if his brain dead supporters consider him a martyr.

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25 minutes ago, billvon said:

Ideally he would be charged, convicted - and pardoned.  Make sure that his guilt is proven in case he tries to pull some "I really didn't lose the election" nonsense in two years, then pardon him so his supporters don't decide that he's their martyr.

They already think he's a martyr for losing a rigged election. Proof is meaningless to them.

 

Regardless, I can't think of any way that it could be good for the health of a democracy for it to be shown yet again that its leaders have immunity from the consequences of breaking any laws. 

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47 minutes ago, billvon said:

Ideally he would be charged, convicted - and pardoned.  Make sure that his guilt is proven in case he tries to pull some "I really didn't lose the election" nonsense in two years, then pardon him so his supporters don't decide that he's their martyr.

Pardoning him would be a mistake.

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1 hour ago, billvon said:

Ideally he would be charged, convicted - and pardoned.  Make sure that his guilt is proven in case he tries to pull some "I really didn't lose the election" nonsense in two years, then pardon him so his supporters don't decide that he's their martyr.

Screw that. Pardoning him, or simply not prosecuting him for any real crimes committed, would do nothing to stop the trend of right wing authoritarianism around the world and now here in America. For one thing it would bring his 2024 Presidential aspirations to a screeching halt now and give his cult a few years to cool down. It would also serve to give the next such brazen asshole pause, at least in America. No more same thing, I say.

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Indicting him for murder or manslaughter probably doesn’t work. 
I want the business violations, in part because they’re so divorced from anything political, and in part because money buys such great justice, it’d be great in a Leona  Helmsley way to see the downfall. 
Wendy P. 

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(edited)
2 hours ago, billvon said:

Ideally he would be charged, convicted - and pardoned.  Make sure that his guilt is proven in case he tries to pull some "I really didn't lose the election" nonsense in two years, then pardon him so his supporters don't decide that he's their martyr.

That is just what I was thinking earlier this evening.  It would be even more effective than G. Ford’s pardon of Nixon as it would come from the other party.  I would hope Biden would have the strength to push back on the radical left, for the good of the country.  Think about it, the most humiliating thing that could happen to Trump, would be to be pardoned by Biden.

Biden could even make him say “sorry” and “pretty please” as a condition for the pardon 

Edited by brenthutch

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What about the rest of the trump crime dynasty?  NYT today

"Two separate New York State fraud investigations into President Trump and his businesses, one criminal and one civil, have expanded to include tax write-offs on millions of dollars in consulting fees, some of which appear to have gone to Ivanka Trump, according to people with knowledge of the matter.

The inquiries — a criminal investigation by the Manhattan district attorney, Cyrus R. Vance Jr., and a civil one by the state attorney general, Letitia James — are being conducted independently. But both offices issued subpoenas to the Trump Organization in recent weeks for records related to the fees, the people said."

I'm surprised that some people here have no empathy. Why should Ivanka, Don Jr and Eric be left out.

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Just now, brenthutch said:

That is just what I was thinking earlier this evening.  It would be even more effective than G. Ford’s pardon of Nixon as it would come from the other party.  I would hope Biden would have the strength to push back on the radical left, for the good of the country.  Think about it, the most humiliating thing that could happen to Trump, would be to be pardoned by Biden.

Please....trump humiliated. Stop now.

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7 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

That is just what I was thinking earlier this evening.  It would be even more effective than G. Ford’s pardon of Nixon as it would come from the other party.  I would hope Biden would have the strength to push back on the radical left, for the good of the country.  Think about it, the most humiliating thing that could happen to Trump, would be to be pardoned by Biden.

Biden could even make him say “sorry” and “pretty please” as a condition for the pardon 

Methinks you're joking if you think Trump will say "sorry" for a pardon. He'll be more like the girl in the pit in Silence of the Lambs, threatening to break preciouses legs if he's not let go. In any case no President can pardon him for state crimes and that's, if there is a there there, the best chance for a relatively fast conviction. He knows that and it's the specter of state prosecution, because he sort of has an idea he's guilty, that makes him willing to destroy confidence in our democracy on the off chance he can stay president.

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2 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Methinks you're joking if you think Trump will say "sorry" for a pardon. He'll be more like the girl in the pit in Silence of the Lambs, threatening to break preciouses legs if he's not let go. In any case no President can pardon him for state crimes and that's, if there is a there there, the best chance for a relatively fast conviction. He knows that and it's the specter of state prosecution, because he sort of has an idea he's guilty, that makes him willing to destroy confidence in our democracy on the off chance he can stay president.

I was joking about the apology.  In all seriousness, if Trump was a guilty as many wish him to be, he will be convicted as easily as HRC was.  We need to stop criminalizing our political differences. #moveon

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2 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

I was joking about the apology.  In all seriousness, if Trump was a guilty as many wish him to be, he will be convicted as easily as HRC was.  We need to stop criminalizing our political differences. #moveon

Well, we don't know for sure just how guilty he is. In the words of my dear old dad just after his hand bounced off the side of my head: " I don't know what you did, but I know you did it."

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9 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

I was joking about the apology.  In all seriousness, if Trump was a guilty as many wish him to be, he will be convicted as easily as HRC was.  We need to stop criminalizing our political differences. #moveon

Great.

Let's allow the various District Attorneys, State's Attorney's General and Federal Prosecutors to conduct an investigation as long and thorough as the ones Congress conducted on HRC's e-mails & Benghazi.

Funny how many of those already have investigations underway.

Funny how the Trump spawn are as deeply involved as he is.

Eric has been ducking & dodging a sworn deposition for a few months. 

I'd rather see Trump and the brats investigated, indicted and tried for all the crap they've pulled with the Trump Foundation and "Trump Inc". 

While the Trumpettes might scream & yell that it's "political prosecution", leaving the crimes he committed while in office off the table (at least for a while) would mute a fair amount of that.

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52 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

I'd rather see Trump and the brats investigated, indicted and tried for all the crap they've pulled with the Trump Foundation and "Trump Inc". 

What crap? Do you mean the crap like Hunter Biden pulled?  Or do you mean the real nasty stuff done by the Clinton Foundation? Or are you so blind/gullible/obtuse that you can’t see the similarities?

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3 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

What crap? Do you mean the crap like Hunter Biden pulled?  Or do you mean the real nasty stuff done by the Clinton Foundation? Or are you so blind/gullible/obtuse that you can’t see the similarities?

I'll wager a nice bottle of Burgundy that you're about to hear that it is being blind, gullible and obtuse that allows you to see the similarities.

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13 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

What crap? Do you mean the crap like Hunter Biden pulled?  Or do you mean the real nasty stuff done by the Clinton Foundation? Or are you so blind/gullible/obtuse that you can’t see the similarities?

Crap like getting busted and having the courts dissolve the Trump foundation for fraud.

Crap like claiming that Allen Weisselberg was the CFO so that it didn't look like he was using the foundation to siphon money into his own pocket.  Weisselberg then testifed that he didn't even know about the foundation for "at least for the last 10 or 15 years."

Crap like the fact that "none of the Foundation's expenditures or activities were approved by its Board of Directors. The investigation found that the Board existed in name only: it did not meet after 1999; it did not set policy or criteria for choosing grant recipients, and it did not approve of any grants. Mr. Trump alone made all decisions related to the Foundation."

Crap like claiming he contributed $6 million to a veteran's charity, with the real number being $2.8 million and the rest disappearing into his pockets.

Crap like using his charitable foundation to finance his campaign.

Crap like using his charitable foundation to bribe a DA investigating his Trump University fraud case.

Had ANY of the above happened with the Clinton foundation, people would be in jail now.  But since Trump actively manipulates the court system to remain above the law, he has avoided paying for his crimes.  And that will continue - at least until he's out of office.

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7 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

I'll wager a nice bottle of Burgundy that you're about to hear that it is being blind, gullible and obtuse that allows you to see the similarities.

I’ll take that bet for no other reason than I would like to buy you a drink.

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(edited)
3 minutes ago, billvon said:

Crap like getting busted and having the courts dissolve the Trump foundation for fraud.

Crap like claiming that Allen Weisselberg was the CFO so that it didn't look like he was using the foundation to siphon money into his own pocket.  Weisselberg then testifed that he didn't even know about the foundation for "at least for the last 10 or 15 years."

Crap like the fact that "none of the Foundation's expenditures or activities were approved by its Board of Directors. The investigation found that the Board existed in name only: it did not meet after 1999; it did not set policy or criteria for choosing grant recipients, and it did not approve of any grants. Mr. Trump alone made all decisions related to the Foundation."

Crap like claiming he contributed $6 million to a veteran's charity, with the real number being $2.8 million and the rest disappearing into his pockets.

Crap like using his charitable foundation to finance his campaign.

Crap like using his charitable foundation to bribe a DA investigating his Trump University fraud case.

Had ANY of the above happened with the Clinton foundation, people would be in jail now.  But since Trump actively manipulates the court system to remain above the law, he has avoided paying for his crimes.  And that will continue - at least until he's out of office.

Any criminal convictions?  
 

Edited by brenthutch

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(edited)
8 hours ago, SivaGanesha said:

Note that multiple responses are not allowed. Trump, like anyone else, can only physically be sent to one prison at a time. There is a lot of talk of prosecuting him after he leaves office. However, he has been accused of multiple instances of different types of crimes--crimes against the country as President as well as both private business and personal crimes. At some point a decision will need to made as to which type of crime to focus on first.

 

He should be prosecuted for any crime, that is, an action he's taken which has supposedly broken a law as determined by an impartial judicial force.

Whether it's in office as the president, related to his business or to election tampering, or anything else. He should be held accountable to exactly the same fucking standards as every other American. No get-out-of-jail free card.

I kind of agree with Bill's position on convicting and then pardoning him. But only kind of.

Edited by yoink

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8 hours ago, brenthutch said:

That is just what I was thinking earlier this evening.  It would be even more effective than G. Ford’s pardon of Nixon as it would come from the other party.  I would hope Biden would have the strength to push back on the radical left, for the good of the country. 

Politicians being genuinely accountable to the law instead of existing in a class above it is for the good of the country.

Quote

Think about it, the most humiliating thing that could happen to Trump, would be to be pardoned by Biden.

No, going to prison would be more humiliating.

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